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I'm surprised. Alex Salmond called the EU Ref result valid.
Why would he not? It is....
There were all kinds of things wrong with the campaigns and the general level of voter knowledge on the EU but at the end of the day it was a democratic decision. Undoubtedly a terrible result but it was the will of just over half the people so....
If there is no plan, then this is the most ridiculous act of national sabotage I've ever seen.
But it suited the Leavers to stay vague in the campaign, because by not defining what they want they let the Leave voters fill in their own utopian vision of what Leave would be like. Some could imagine a no change state where they'd simply get back democractic control. Others could imagine a defeat of the neoliberal order and a left wing resurgence. Still others could take back control and boot out immigrants. Meanwhile Remain had to argue for a messy, complicated and mutlifaceted reality.
If the Remain marches had a solution that allays the fears and quells some of the skepticism of Brexiters, then I'd actually be in favour of their rally. But as it looks to be going, it's a hissy fit about democracy doing its job, and has been called waaay too early to have any idea what it's talking about.
This is one of the problems with politics today, people are expecting other people to solve their problems. How do you expect people in favour of the EU to know the concerns of people that want to leave the EU if its noting but soundbites and no one ever explains it? NF is particularly bad for this - he goes to the EU, tells them he has a problem with it all and then leaves; it helps no one, not the EU, not the other parties, not the electorate. If problems are explained, discussions can be had and compromised solutions can be found. Would you stand up in front of this march and state you favour leave because of these issues, but maybe these solutions could help change Leavers views? Would you be willing to listen to the counter information and in the end discuss a solution that whilst not perfect for either party be at least satisfactory? What would you propose to solve your concerns?
The best solutions come from the people that have the problems as long as they are willing to be flexible.
There is a really good point here.
Part of the problem is that both sides have been talking past each other.
The Remain side know factually that life is liable be more difficult outside the EU and lots of the things that the Leavers want (such as to stop immigration) are unlikely to happen. So they've address these points in campaigning.
But basing the campaign on refuting those points doesn't actually address the true core concerns of lots of Brexiteers, which are that they actually are worse off or no better off than 10 or 20 years ago.
It may be a mistake for them to blame this on the EU elite or emigration, but the fact remains and ought to have been addressed, by the UK government and the EU.
Unfortunately to address this properly requires the starting of a time machine project to go back 30 years and do a lot more to shield ordinary people from the bad effects of globalisation.
SirDonlad wrote: Personally i'm kicking back and laughing - it's a bit bloody late for marches now people!
Still, it just proves the thing i voted leave over - to protest this decision they don't like they are able to just turn up and be heard in london.
If we had stayed then the leave supporters would have to travel to brussels to make the same kind of protest.
It's never too late to put up a protest or march to show how much you disapprove of the unfolding events. it's quite extraordinary compared to the norm. As a nation we are generally a lot more laid back and it takes a lot to push to the point that we think we have to protest like this. It's almost certain that the government will take notice. The question is which MPs might join the rally?
The one good thing that may come of it though regardless is just how engaged the public have become over politics in the last few days. Maybe that will inspire a new generation to become politicians and not just from mainly the same pool.
We don't need more politicians, we need better politicians.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skullhammer wrote: Well as i see it if the result is 'kicked into the long grass' by any means i would guess that ukip would be the next goverment. (I do NOT want that) as the majority of brits do not like being hoodwinked or scamed.
as to scotland that would be down to them. I like them to remain in the union but i have no say on them as im not in scotland and equally it was a U.K. referendum not a country by country one so sour grapes from stergeon.
UKIP would be an utter disaster as a government. They have only one policy, no experience, and a lot of ill-will. 48% of the electorate hates their guts ATM. It's no way to get elected and do a good job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Saw a post on social media that sums the situation up pretty well. Though I did not expect a Leave victory, I did suspect that in the unlikely event of a Leave vote we still wouldn't get a Brexit and that it would be blocked somehow by Parliament or kicked into the long grass. Cameron has stitched up the Leave campaign by resigning instead of immediately invoking Article 50 like he said he would do prior to the Referendum (so he lied). He's basically passed the buck and the responsibility onto his future successor, who will lack the nerve to go through with it.
Spoiler:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
The only way Brexit will ever happen is if we elect a Eurosceptic government that supports Brexit, and that ain't going to happen with the current Parliament. So congratulations Remainers, you lost a fair democratic vote but you're still getting what you want. Parliament is just going to drag its heels and delay action for as long as possible.
To be fair, that is the law. The referendum is not binding on parliament. Please note that Gove and Boris immediately asked Cameron not to rush into invocation of Article 50. They must know something we don't.
That is why there needs to be a general election to bring in a pro-Brexit government that has the political will and mandate to manage the whole process properly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/26 18:31:25
Kilkrazy wrote: That is why there needs to be a general election to bring in a pro-Brexit government that has the political will and mandate to manage the whole process properly.
I agree, but what if the election (which I think would have a much higher turnout than usual) delivers a Remain government?
Da Boss wrote: If there is no plan, then this is the most ridiculous act of national sabotage I've ever seen.
But it suited the Leavers to stay vague in the campaign, because by not defining what they want they let the Leave voters fill in their own utopian vision of what Leave would be like. Some could imagine a no change state where they'd simply get back democractic control. Others could imagine a defeat of the neoliberal order and a left wing resurgence. Still others could take back control and boot out immigrants. Meanwhile Remain had to argue for a messy, complicated and mutlifaceted reality.
Yes they really stumbled over that question, the Leave Tory pretty much came out and stated that they didn't expect to win, so we now have a government that has no idea what it is going to do to boot.
We don't need more politicians, we need better politicians.
Yes agreed, but hopefully more people wanting to be would help. Our local area can be really bad, at local elections there have been situations where there is literally only one candidate standing so there is no choice; even if no one cast a vote you'd still get them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/26 19:12:23
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Kilkrazy wrote: That is why there needs to be a general election to bring in a pro-Brexit government that has the political will and mandate to manage the whole process properly.
I agree, but what if the election (which I think would have a much higher turnout than usual) delivers a Remain government?
The chances are that if there is a general election (which there should be) every party will have to put in or out right at the top of their manifesto. The election will be fought on this one issue, but the parties will have to be far more concrete about what they will do in or out that the campaigns have been. Whoever wins will then have a mandate to follow the referendum, or declare that they are not following through as the vote was close and many people have changed their mind once the facts came out.
However if we don't go ahead we will be punished by the EU and the markets.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
The chances are that if there is a general election (which there should be) every party will have to put in or out right at the top of their manifesto. The election will be fought on this one issue, but the parties will have to be far more concrete about what they will do in or out that the campaigns have been. Whoever wins will then have a mandate to follow the referendum, or declare that they are not following through as the vote was close and many people have changed their mind once the facts came out.
However if we don't go ahead we will be punished by the EU and the markets.
If either the Conservatives or the Labour party want to win, then in the light of this referendum, they will have to sell themselves as the best party to carry out the brexit. The SNP has Scotland locked up, neither the conservatives nor the labour party have much hope of scoring seats there so to win they need the English and Welsh votes... Who are mostly "leavers"...
Euro-skeptics in both of the major parties will be greatly emboldened by this referendum and will face little resistance from the euro-philes in the respective parties in putting euro-skeptics leaders in for the election.
Da Boss wrote: If you guys go back on the vote, you are going to be seen as an incredibly unreliable partner.
Exactly. We've made the world economy gak itself, carved up our country into tiny little pieces, we're about to try to do the same to the EU, and we've forced everyone's hand.
EU be like "you mean to tell us this was all a joke?"
We'll be worse off than we were before the Referendum, with no chance of redeeming ourselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/26 19:55:03
Da Boss wrote: If you guys go back on the vote, you are going to be seen as an incredibly unreliable partner.
Exactly. We've made the world economy gak itself, carved up our country into tiny little pieces, we're about to try to do the same to the EU, and we've forced everyone's hand.
EU be like "you mean to tell us this was all a joke?"
We'll be worse off than we were before the Referendum, with no chance of redeeming ourselves.
And the sad thing is, I can see our politicians doing just that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, well. Turns out a large part of the surge in signatures for the Referendum petition is down to a 4chan prank.
You just can't make this gak up. ... well, actually you can.
Da Boss wrote: If you guys go back on the vote, you are going to be seen as an incredibly unreliable partner.
Maybe but it could also do the EU some good in that with all those growing EU sceptic parties having a big economy pull back from the brink and apologise for an almighty cock up may give the other EU countries the ammo it needs to silence the critics. After all if second (pre Thursday)/third (post Thursday) largest economy state looks into the abyss realises it doesn't really want to jump then that will be good evidence that the smaller economies would be insane to do it. We're insane to do it as well, but hey we're English and we like to do things the hard way...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/26 20:01:18
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
BBC wrote:"Osborne 'to make statement before markets open' ============ Chancellor George Osborne's absence from the Sunday political programmes, and the post-referendum debate more generally, has been the subject of a lot of talk.
The Guardian reports that he will make a statement early on Monday morning in an attempt to reassure financial markets and avoid a repeat of Friday's volatility.
The newspaper quoted a Treasury spokesman saying Mr Osborne would set out how the government intended to “protect the national interest”"
... well, actually you can.