Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Swampmist wrote:
To be fair, you dont get free transports with just 1 demi company, just a bunch of min squads of obsec marines.

Whoops, I forgot you needed to take extra stuff for the free transports for the Gladius, though my point still largely stands in terms of the inflexibility of the WAAAGH-band formation. I also forgot to mention how it effectively locks us off from one of our most ubiquitous and useful HQ's of Painboyz in the army short of having them come in from CAD's which largely defeats the purpose of taking the formation since you can't have one without taking another core formation.

Just a quick fact. It takes 880 points of barebones marines and vets +2 hqs to get free transports. At which point you can immediately have 550 points of razorbacks for free. You could cut the FA choices to bikes to get that down some but the idea is free transports.

It takes 1138 points of barebones orkz (core and council) to get fearless footslogging army that is fearless. I would like the space marine perk immediately. But the ork formation bonuses are a glass half full thing that you can learn to love. Fearless means no mob rule rolls, no squad of gitz is gonna barely lose 25% and run off the board, no getting swept in assault, and also you can hang up enemies for turns and turns of pillowfighting. Waaagh! every turn means no complicated unorky decision making like do i waaagh this turn and try to make getting in assault easy or do i just move run and try next turn? Can i assault? Maybe i can make a 10 inch assault, so i will move not run then try to assault. No, nothing hard in this formation, move, run, and assault every turn. This formation is about an undeterminable sum of points saved by not losing orkz to mob rule, running off the board, and forcing your opponent to use assets otherwise spent doing something useful to shoot every last boy out of a squad at the threat of a couple boyz left alive mucking with stuff all game. And who is the reason for all these benefits? A t5 squad with a nastyman of an ork on point with a 2++ save with a 2+/4++ rerollable warboss standing behind him all with FnP and majority armor 6. On paper you would need the D to kill it, otherwise feed it units all game and deal with blobs of fearless orkz.

Formations werent really meant to be flexible, the very design seems to be sell kits and spam, its just that a few OP armies are having their formation, models, and eating cake too. If you can get over the inflexable nature of the formation then you get your waaagh and have your fun as listed above. Otherwise its just not for you. Really the other formations have better perks and flexibility we get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am trying to say is the formation make orkz work better. Yes i would like to still being 30 lootas and 30 tankbustas but I love the idea taking Ghaz and a bunch of boyz and walk or ride into a fite

About as orky as it gets if you ask me


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Auto correct is off ><

Why don't you pit gladius against orcurion and see how it fares? My money are not on orcurion. CAD orks have more chances, to be fair.

mhalko1 wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
I was all wide-eyes and smiles when the updated supplement came up for pre-order, you can probably imagine my disappointment when I opened it up and about 95%+ of the content in it is from books I've already paid for. Did I hear somewhere that the people who bought the digital copies of the original received the update for free? That's maddening for us hardcopy purchasers.

As far as tactics go, I won't ever be using the big detachment without fielding the Council but as I play large point games I can probably get more use out of it than most. I'll kit out the Council until the cost of it makes my eyes green, load up the boyz in a Blitz Brigade or Trukks and then spam Tankbustas until I run out of auxiliary slots. Might not be that good in practise but I'll have a right laugh with it I think!

Yes the e=book users got an update automatically. However if you complain to customer support they will send you a pdf to go with your hard copies

You know I kinda wish they didn't update the enhanced copy.nthe problem being the ebook people can still download the original copy however the enhanced copy is overwritten. Meaning the greentide copy I had is gone.
When I emailed the black library customer support they said I can still use the greentide in the old codex however I don't have it anymore. Once explaining this to their customer rep he said he will see what he can do. This was three weeks ago I don't expect another reply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Why don't you pit gladius against orcurion and see how it fares? My money are not on orcurion. CAD orks have more chances, to be fair.

Cad ork is better with the IA forgeworld book especially zhardsnark but honestly there wasn't much going for a cad either without forgeworld.
Best formetions are still blitz brigade, greentide, mogroks boss boys, bully boys, and the flashgits one. It still boggles my mind they haven't given us a biker boys formation of deffkopta formation even with mediocre bonuses.

@Rismonte, what does (WG) mean when you describes characters in the Meh-band?

Waaargh wrote:
@Rismonte, what does (WG) mean when you describes characters in the Meh-band?

I believe it means its from the Waaagh Ghazgul supplement.

Yeah, the waaaagh band is not the power level of the battle company.

But it is worth noting fearless is not the only benefit you get. The benefits of a Ghaz-led waagh band are:

-HoW on 10+ models or rolls of 10+ on charges from the core
-Army wide run and charge (including mega armor models in the Ghaz-star)
-2 extra warlord traits for Ghazghkull (admittedly crappy ones)
-2++ invuln save on a 5W EW model
-Army wide fearless
-Ghaz gets rerolls if he kills a model in a challenge.

Admittedly a lot of those are "neato bonus" levels (the warlord traits, rerolls after the challenge, etc) but people are seriously discounting how many points you usually have to pay in character and tax costs to get something as durable as perma-waaagh ghaz paired with a stikkboss. 2+ rerollable against non-AP2, 2+ against AP2.

My basic waaagh-band at this point is a bare minimum core with biker nobz+bikerboss, ghazzystar with mega armor on everyone, one warboss with stikk. I generally grab a battlewagon for the Ghazstar just to get them into the midboard a little quicker to start them threatening stuff. Then just fill the remainder with aux slot deffcoptas, tankbustas and lootas.

The matchup vs battle company isn't bad if they go for razorbacks instead of drop pods, as a 10 man squad of boyz on the charge will glance out anything with a 10 rear armor even without the bonus charge attack. The first few turns you will fall behind on objectives, but as the battle grinds on you'll find that you can match the marines' durability vs shooting by going to ground in terrain, and you have a fairly high threat to him in assault.

vs pods though it's pretty DOA, as they will just pod every objective and your boyz can't harm the AV12.

Can't they kill pods with Stikkbombs?

Stikkbombs are frag grenades not krak so no. Also I played this vs space wolves thunder wolf Calv and wulfen. You will lose that match each and every time. Wulfen destroy the rest of ghazkull's "death star" and then die, then they all attack again finishing him with no fnp. It's honestly sickening.

the_scotsman wrote:

-2 extra warlord traits for Ghazghkull (admittedly crappy ones)

There's a crusader trait which is good for them.

the_scotsman wrote:

-2++ invuln save on a 5W EW model

4 wound

the_scotsman wrote:

a 10 man squad of boyz on the charge will glance out anything with a 10 rear armor even without the bonus charge attack.

Remember, that you don't get +1 str while multicharging.

Also, you don't want to be second as you can loose half the army before being able to do anything as stuff ain't fearless yet and you don't have nobs to keep boyz in line.

 Orock wrote:
Stikkbombs are frag grenades not krak so no. Also I played this vs space wolves thunder wolf Calv and wulfen. You will lose that match each and every time. Wulfen destroy the rest of ghazkull's "death star" and then die, then they all attack again finishing him with no fnp. It's honestly sickening.

Ghaz always has fnp. Admittedly it's cybork so only 6+ if maddok dies. Or 5+ if he has warlord trait.
Also rampage and mass ws7 str10 ap2 should mess up those wulven pretty badly. They are 2w but only t4 and 4+ sv. Your taking about 5 pk hits on a squad full of Pk with a ton of atks.
If it's ap2 and not str d ghaz should be eating those attacks with his 2++ and 5+ fnp with rerolls if you took a runt and t6. Ghaz is going to take 1-2 wounds from Wulfen but the ork strike back will eat the Wulfen. If you are rolling poorly and ghaz took to many wounds then just have the nobs eat as many attacks with LOS as they can with thier 2 wounds and fnp. If you have any mass infantry shooting that's not ap2 the Lukky stikk warboss with 2+ rerollable and 5+ fnp will chew through those hits again LOS for ghaz. This is a lot to chew through even for Wulfen.

You can't take Grot Orderlies in the Council and Ghaz has to issue and accept challenges, so you can't LoS any wounds to him until the challenge is over. Just LoS any AP2 attacks on to the Nobz until the second round of combat and you probably want more than 3 Nobz if Wulfen are as nasty as they sound.

xlDuke wrote:
You can't take Grot Orderlies in the Council and Ghaz has to issue and accept challenges, so you can't LoS any wounds to him until the challenge is over. Just LoS any AP2 attacks on to the Nobz until the second round of combat and you probably want more than 3 Nobz if Wulfen are as nasty as they sound.

No where does it state you can't take grot orderlies. They are in mad doks profile. I usually take at least one in this list to deal with bad rolls or someone sniping maddok.
If ghazskull is fighting the Wulfen squad leader that guy is dead in one hit and ghaz atks spill over into the rest of the Wulfen unit.
After overwatch if all the Wulfen survive, any HoW atks get eaten by Lukky stikk boss or ghaz (they really want a 6 on the hunt table for super rampage), ghaz challenges the sw leader and kills him with roll over damage decimating the Wulfen group. The Wulfen squad ap2 hits get eaten by nobs with 2w and 5+ Fnp. Those three nobs are dead. You got two more warbosses and a big Mek to eat more wounds all of which have 2w and 5+ fnp and are t5. Obviously kill the Lukky stick boss or maddok last. Wulfen have a lot of ap2 atks but they are only base 5 models and expensive when you equip them all with frost claws (worse with thunder hammers neither of which are str10 to ignore the fnp of the Orks).There is no way they can survive ghaz with 5 base atks with d3 rampage atks with reroll to hits at ws7+ and reroll to wounds at str10 Ap2. They have fnp but are only t4 so are easily denied fnp at str8-10. Not to mention any additional atks from a rampaging Lukky stikk boss with reroll to hits or maddok with 4 base atk and d3 rampage each.

You're going to need a full squad of 10 Wulfen all with frost claws to kill ghaz support snd that's with rolling a 6 on the hunts table for d3 more atks on the charge. Ghaz is going to kill at least 5 Wulfen when he challenges. If he is still locked in combat at turn 2 without any support he may die and that's only because Wulfen can get ridiculous on the kill table on the second turn of assault especially if they roll a 6. My point is ghaz is always 2++ and at min 6+ fnp. 5+ fnp with maddok or the warlord trait which is basically redundant. He can really only die by weight of fire, stomps, or str d rolls of 6. With weight of fire you need to get through 16x t5 5+ fnp wounds with ap2 hits. That's a lot of ap2 that needs to wound and get through 5+ fnp, just to get to ghaz who has 4 more wounds and can cares less about ap2.

Its only the Painboy that has access to Grot Orderlies, not Grotsnik sadly. Unless you've got an updated version of the codex I'm not aware of anyway. In the wargear list they say "Painboys only" and Grotsnik doesn't have any options at all in his army list entry. You can also only take a maximum of one Orderly. Everything else you say sounds reasonable though that's the best way to use the formation, thankfully no one I know plays Space Wolves so I won't come up against Wulfen or Thunderwolf Cavalry

Looks like I've been screwing that one up heck even ghazkull can take runt and squigs.

It's not exactly game breaking anyway I wouldn't worry about it. Yeah I'd be inclined to give Ghazghkull an Attack Squig with the Council and Waaagh!-band because he's got to be in challenges and he should live to use it until the end of the game.

How many wulfen are you fighting? Armed with what? And why didn't you bloody shoot them with tankbustas/loot as who were basically made to shred those mofos?

xlDuke wrote:
It's not exactly game breaking anyway I wouldn't worry about it. Yeah I'd be inclined to give Ghazghkull an Attack Squig with the Council and Waaagh!-band because he's got to be in challenges and he should live to use it until the end of the game.

The problem with atk squig is its 15 pts and ghaz automatically gets 2 warlord traits with rerolls. He has 6 choices with one decent one being mastercrafted.

Outflank- useless unless you want it
Fnp- basically redundant and useless with maddok and cybork body.
+1 bs- basically useless on twinlinked shoota
Master crafted wpn- good for powerklaw even if ghaz is going to be ws7-8 (reroll 1s and useful vs invis units)
Rage- good for 2 atks on charge giving ghaz 7 atks on charge (and he still has rampage d3 atks from mad dok)
Crusader- best ability you get to roll 2 dice on run keeping highest (with 2d6 charge with ability to reroll a die and 6in move in mega armour with waaagh turn 1.)

Then as soon as ghaz wins a single challenge which he will. He has reroll to wound the entire game. He's probably the only character you want to challenge every time anyway.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
How many wulfen are you fighting? Armed with what? And why didn't you bloody shoot them with tankbustas/loot as who were basically made to shred those mofos?

They can theoretically turn 1 charge because they move fast. They have 2w 4+ armour 5+ fnp t4. They have 3 base atk +1 from pair of frost claws, +1 from charging. They are str4 Frost claws are str +1 ap2 shred. They can be up to a unit of 10 models. They get two special tables one out of combat which just really makes them move faster for turn 1 charge or if they roll 6 furious charge and d3 atks on charge instead of 1.

With line of sight lootas can eat them up. However if they make it into combat turn 1 at full strength they have a chance to do damage to ghaz council. If by some miracle they survive combat into round 2 with ghaz. They roll on another table for in combat that is useless except for a roll of a 6 which basically allows them to atk again if they die even if they Atked that round. Potentially throwing out enough ap2 wounds to get through ghaz 2++ and 5/6+ fnp. However this unit costs about 440pts as described and ghaz should still win unless the Wulfen have a lot of good rolls in thier favor.

Also I never take more then 3nobs because I want the unit to be majority t5 toughness.

Totally not afraid of Wulfen that arent sporting the shield. T4 multiwound models arent hard to deal with, but that 3++ gives them good odds to ignore our PKs and loota fire.

Wulfen sporting the shield are expensive, so im not even sure if its worth it. Though i dont play space wolves and the only time i faced wulfen he didnt have the shields and they didnt even get to move they died so fast lol

Haven't faced that star. I fail to understand how wulfen get on ghaz without getting stuck on some boyz long enough for ghaz to counter assault.

This all assuming we need to bump the two into each other. I would think a smart wulfen player would avoid that fight considering his mobility. Most game types he could be scoring anywhere else that, at most, have orkz with little armament. Why roll the expensive dice?

Cause wulfen are cheaper.

A wulven unit of 5 models with 2 hammer+shields 2 axes and 1 pair of claws can do some serious damage to the ghazstar (although not destroying it) but it costs way less than a ghazstar its only 238 points and packs 14-28 ap2 attacks and 8-16 str 10 ap 2 attacks that can instant death every modell in ghazstar except ghaz who will be in challenge anyway.
My advice against it is shoot it or send boyz, they can do some damage to weaken the unit so they don't criple your ghazstar.

How are you getting str10 to instadeath the ghaz star?
The Wulfen are str4, Thunder hammer is x2. At best you roll a 6 on hunt which gives you furious charge and hit str 9. That's still not str 10. Nobody but 3x nobs are Insta death. You are really looking at 8 str9 atks and 14 str6 atks and that's if your Lukky and roll a 6 for hunt and another 5/6 on d3 charge atks you get 16/28 but unlikely even with formation bonus.

The hammer has 1 less atk then claws, hit at int1 and don't have reroll to wounds which means every ork can still hit back with pks and ghaz even in a challenge will have roll over damage. The entire ghaz star is also ws7/8 meaning the Wulfen need a 4+ to hit and majority toughness 5 means they need a 3+ to wound with reroll with claws.

gungo wrote:
How are you getting str10 to instadeath the ghaz star?
The Wulfen are str4, Thunder hammer is x2. At best you roll a 6 on hunt which gives you furious charge and hit str 9. That's still not str 10. Nobody but 3x nobs are Insta death. You are really looking at 8 str9 atks and 14 str6 atks and that's if your Lukky and roll a 6 for hunt and another 5/6 on d3 charge atks you get 16/28 but unlikely even with formation bonus.

The hammer has 1 less atk then claws, hit at int1 and don't have reroll to wounds which means every ork can still hit back with pks and ghaz even in a challenge will have roll over damage. The entire ghaz star is also ws7/8 meaning the Wulfen need a 4+ to hit.

Wulfin are S5 base. Also remember that Wulfin when they die get to pile in and make their attacks at that initative before being removed. Getting into close combat means they will get their attacks off and those gitz hit like a red painted battlewagon with no brakes. The only Ork unit that can tank wulfin is Ghazz himself with his 2++ invuln but even then wulfin pack a TON of attacks with crazy high strength. Better off shooting them to death with tankbustas or kannons.

 Vankraken wrote:

gungo wrote:
How are you getting str10 to instadeath the ghaz star?
The Wulfen are str4, Thunder hammer is x2. At best you roll a 6 on hunt which gives you furious charge and hit str 9. That's still not str 10. Nobody but 3x nobs are Insta death. You are really looking at 8 str9 atks and 14 str6 atks and that's if your Lukky and roll a 6 for hunt and another 5/6 on d3 charge atks you get 16/28 but unlikely even with formation bonus.

The hammer has 1 less atk then claws, hit at int1 and don't have reroll to wounds which means every ork can still hit back with pks and ghaz even in a challenge will have roll over damage. The entire ghaz star is also ws7/8 meaning the Wulfen need a 4+ to hit.

Wulfin are S5 base. Also remember that Wulfin when they die get to pile in and make their attacks at that initative before being removed. Getting into close combat means they will get their attacks off and those gitz hit like a red painted battlewagon with no brakes. The only Ork unit that can tank wulfin is Ghazz himself with his 2++ invuln but even then wulfin pack a TON of attacks with crazy high strength. Better off shooting them to death with tankbustas or kannons.

Agh ur right str 5 base.

The amount of at initiative AP2 they have is loud.

Screams shoot me

Crusader- best ability you get to roll 3 dice on charge with ability to reroll one from ere we go, then d6 run and 6in move in mega armour.

Whot? crusader gives extra dice when running and then pick higher, and d3 for sweeping adv which have no use for council due to mega armour.

Sorry Ya you normally get 2d6 charge and reroll one die from ere we go.

And crusader gives you 2d6 and choose highest for run

Along with 6 in move with move, run, charge from waaaagh each turn. Makes crusader the best warlord trait in that list.

It's not Wulfen level of movement but fairly reliable charge range for ghaz unit.

If they had at least kept cybork bodies an invuln. then the Council of WAAAGH! could be somewhat feasible as a "deathstar" unit, alas it is not easy being green...