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Serious question.. what is the current ITC D weapon change? I don't even know =P

Destroyer Weapons:

For ITC format events, we use the following profile for ranged Destroyer Weapons in place of that found in the book: D Weapons with the Distort Scythe special rule still subtract 1 from the table below.
Roll of a 1: No damage occurs.
Roll of a 2-5: Target model takes D3 wounds, or hull points with a penetrating hit.
Roll of a 6: Target model takes 3 automatic wounds with no saves allowed, or 3 hull points with a penetrating hit with no saves allowed.


When resolving a Destroyer weapon attack, roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table (DWAT) for each hit generated and then allocate wounds normally. E.g., a Blast weapon with strength D hits five enemy models from the same unit. The attacker rolls five times on the DWAT getting results of 1, 2, 5, 6, and 6. The attacking player chooses to allocate the group of 2 and 5 results first followed by the group of 6 results.

The potential changes in this vote is quite promising. Hope to see positive changes for the ITC!

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Destroyer Weapons:

For ITC format events, we use the following profile for ranged Destroyer Weapons in place of that found in the book: D Weapons with the Distort Scythe special rule still subtract 1 from the table below.
Roll of a 1: No damage occurs.
Roll of a 2-5: Target model takes D3 wounds, or hull points with a penetrating hit.
Roll of a 6: Target model takes 3 automatic wounds with no saves allowed, or 3 hull points with a penetrating hit with no saves allowed.


When resolving a Destroyer weapon attack, roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table (DWAT) for each hit generated and then allocate wounds normally. E.g., a Blast weapon with strength D hits five enemy models from the same unit. The attacker rolls five times on the DWAT getting results of 1, 2, 5, 6, and 6. The attacking player chooses to allocate the group of 2 and 5 results first followed by the group of 6 results.

OK thanks! I mean.. it is definitely toned down.. but that is still really good... The only thing they prevented was D weapons insta popping super heavies and straight slaying GMCs.. anything else it is pretty much the same end result.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Spoiler:

I don't see any problem with collective punishment of Tau players because there aren't any in my playgroup, and the ITC has no sway in what we do. I do not care in the slightest what you do in your tournament because I am never going to play in it. I really don't care whether you like it or not.

I don't recall you having much in the way of principles when people were wanting to stick it to the Eldar a while back. Funny, that.

At this point.. I am assuming your just trolling the thread now..

But in all seriousness, did anything harmful come to eldar from gamgee's pitchfork nonsense? no.. nothing actually happened. Anyway, deaf ears and all.

Cheers!

May you find inner peace and become the dragon warrior we know you to be. (sorry just watched kung fu panda )

Not really. It's all just a little tempest in a teapot.

Define "harmful". Is it harmful to have created some a personal desires to punish Tau where none existed before?

Thanks!

Ultimately, all these moments will be lost in time. Like tears in rain.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't see any problem with collective punishment of Tau players because there aren't any in my playgroup, and the ITC has no sway in what we do. I do not care in the slightest what you do in your tournament because I am never going to play in it. I really don't care whether you like it or not.

I don't recall you having much in the way of principles when people were wanting to stick it to the Eldar a while back. Funny, that.

That is hilarious. So you don't play anywhere with ITC rules, no one in your playgroup even plays Tau, and you don't play in tournaments, yet you are STILL voting to nerf tau simply because you hate one guy. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Define "harmful". Is it harmful to have created some a personal desires to punish Tau where none existed before?

This is what i mean by NOT "harmful" .. Gamgee made some thread -> people yelled and tantrumed -> people were offended. Outcome: there were no polls taken or nerfs given to Eldar in any form by GW or ITC directly because of gamgee or his thread.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ultimately, all these moments will be lost in time. Like tears in rain.

Probably not... because this is an internet forum

Whoa, don't bring GW into this, because we know as a stated fact that they don't incorporate customer feedback as a driver for their rules or FAQs.

Reading some comments on the FLG website and I saw Reecius post the following:

OK, nm, trying to get the data verified but day is running short. The shipments coming in late burned a day on us.

So far for sure:

1,850pts
3 Detachments
ITC Faction will be the detachment with the most points in it
Yes to Chaos Knight with Legacies
No to Eldar Corsair Jetbikes shooting then scooting in overwatch

The rest to come very soon! Sorry for the delay.

I'm good with all that so far.

RAGE!!! YELLING!!!! LOUD!!!! ... oh... Ghostkeels weren't nerfed after all... yeeeee!!!!

But incoming salt as the Piranha Firestream wing was!

 Grizzyzz wrote:
RAGE!!! YELLING!!!! LOUD!!!! ... oh... Ghostkeels weren't nerfed after all... yeeeee!!!!

But incoming salt as the Piranha Firestream wing was!

I don't use piranhas so it doesn't effect me at all, but man did they get utterly nerfed. 3 times in fact:
1.) Cannot leave the turn after they enter
2.) Dead models are not replaced after they re-enter
3.) Immobilized piranhas are not counted as destroyed. (this would only matter if #2 didn't happen)

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
RAGE!!! YELLING!!!! LOUD!!!! ... oh... Ghostkeels weren't nerfed after all... yeeeee!!!!

But incoming salt as the Piranha Firestream wing was!

I don't use piranhas so it doesn't effect me at all, but man did they get utterly nerfed. 3 times in fact:
1.) Cannot enter the turn after they leave
2.) Dead models are not replaced after they re-enter
3.) Immobilized piranhas are counted as destroyed.

#1 is incorrect, they do in fact enter the turn after they leave. They cannot, however, leave the same turn they entered.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
RAGE!!! YELLING!!!! LOUD!!!! ... oh... Ghostkeels weren't nerfed after all... yeeeee!!!!

But incoming salt as the Piranha Firestream wing was!

I don't use piranhas so it doesn't effect me at all, but man did they get utterly nerfed. 3 times in fact:
1.) Cannot enter the turn after they leave
2.) Dead models are not replaced after they re-enter
3.) Immobilized piranhas are counted as destroyed.

#1 is incorrect, they do in fact enter the turn after they leave. They cannot, however, leave the same turn they entered.

My bad, that is what I meant i mixed them up backwards.

notredameguy10 wrote:

3.) Immobilized piranhas are counted as destroyed.

That's a negative.

But yes, overall, the Piranha Firestream has been nerfed twice.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the Tau players who got piranhas, sorry to have your hopes and firedreams crushed.

Can someone explain what is so unreasonable about the Piranha results?
1. Tau players actually have to play the unit
2. Dead stays dead
3. Immobilized is dead

Every single one of those things conforms to what one might reasonably expect in the game.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Can someone explain what is so unreasonable about the Piranha results?
1. Tau players actually have to play the unit
2. Dead stays dead
3. Immobilized is dead

Every single one of those things conforms to what one might reasonably expect in the game.

Because those are against what the actual rule says.

It specifically says it can leave the turn it enters
It says the UNIT is returned to full strength, which would mean dead models

Like I said, I will never be using this anyway, but still

Wait, did Tau players think it was perfectly reasonable to just walk a unit on the board, vomit off free drones and weaponry, and then leave before they could be assaulted or shot? LOL

Requizen wrote:
Wait, did Tau players think it was perfectly reasonable to just walk a unit on the board, vomit off free drones and weaponry, and then leave before they could be assaulted or shot? LOL

Seeing that is EXACTLY what the rules state, yes.

And there is no "free weaponry" as they are 18" range so the actual piranhas will not be able to hit anything.

So when will Eldar have their S(D) weapons un-nerfed?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So when will Eldar have their S(D) weapons un-nerfed?

That affects every army in the game buddy, not just elder

notredameguy10 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Wait, did Tau players think it was perfectly reasonable to just walk a unit on the board, vomit off free drones and weaponry, and then leave before they could be assaulted or shot? LOL

Seeing that is EXACTLY what the rules state, yes.

um



Where does it say you can do that the turn it comes in? It doesn't say you can't, but the only other units in the game that can willingly fly off the board into ongoing reserve are flyers and FMCs (and a few special rules) and they can't do it the same turn. It specifically says Flyers and FMCs can't do this. As that is the precedent, I don't see why ruling accordingly is surprising.

And from a gameplay perspective, yes an unkillable unit that gives you free shots and models is dumb. If they left it in the game I would have to question sanity. Any army without Interceptor (hint: most) could literally not even hurt them. Please tell me why that would be balanced.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And there is no "free weaponry" as they are 18" range so the actual piranhas will not be able to hit anything.

Because the opponents never come close to your board edge in your games? Drop pods don't exist? Linebreaker isn't a victory point? Infiltrate never happens? Do you see why this statement of yours is kind of asinine?

RAW:

Its absolutely legal to for this formation to leave the same turn they arrive.

1.) they enter the game pre movement as reserves.
2) they are allowed to dissembark the drones withc is still in their movement phase.
3) then if they are in 6" of the board edge they are allowed to leave.
Absolutely legal acording to RAW

in addition:
Are these guys flyers or flying MCs?
No they are not. so the rules that stop flyers and FMC to leave table the same turn they enter it do not apply here.

Face it. RAW this would be legal.

And don't come with " UNFAIR!" of stuff like this. RAW such arguments are worthless! ( But i would agree that this way of playing would suck. )

Requizen wrote:

Where does it say you can do that the turn it comes in? It doesn't say you can't, but the only other units in the game that can willingly fly off the board into ongoing reserve are flyers and FMCs (and a few special rules) and they can't do it the same turn. It specifically says Flyers and FMCs can't do this. As that is the precedent, I don't see why ruling accordingly is surprising.

And from a gameplay perspective, yes an unkillable unit that gives you free shots and models is dumb. If they left it in the game I would have to question sanity. Any army without Interceptor (hint: most) could literally not even hurt them. Please tell me why that would be balanced.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And there is no "free weaponry" as they are 18" range so the actual piranhas will not be able to hit anything.

Because the opponents never come close to your board edge in your games? Drop pods don't exist? Linebreaker isn't a victory point? Infiltrate never happens? Do you see why this statement of yours is kind of asinine?

The bolded part is what I'd like to call your attention to. FMCs, Flyers, Mawlocks, Swooping Hawks, and the Piranha formation all have permission to enter ongoing reserves. All of them EXCEPT the Piranha formation have a restriction on them saying when they're not allowed to enter ongoing reserves. You cannot use the FMC/Flyer as precedent to change how the rules work for another unit when it's not restricted in its ruling. What you can do is change the rule at the TO level to make more sense and say you cannot leave the turn you arrive because of game balance.

To answer your string of questions. Drop pods are immune to drones. Linebreaker cannot be scored by the drones. Infiltrate will happen before anything regarding this formation ever happens. The only use the drones have is keeping things away from your deployment zone. This formation is especially bad on Hammer and Anvil, as the spawned drones will have a hard time reaching midfield.

I agree that the formation shouldn't be allowed to enter reserves the same turn it arrives, but for different reasons.

Well I was kinda shocked at the 1850 result. Felt like 95% of the people I talked to off and online were stoked about the points drop, with only a small number that mentioned wanting it kept the same. And then bam, wildly different poll result.

I'm sure it'll come back around anyway. One thing I don't think a lot of the 1850 supporters realize is that it's going to get worse. More decurions, more free points, more free rules, more free units. And armies will take them to be competitive.

A year from now, making it TO turn 5 will be an impressive feat in a game between two good lists where one doesn't get crippled out of the gate.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Well I was kinda shocked at the 1850 result. Felt like 95% of the people I talked to off and online were stoked about the points drop, with only a small number that mentioned wanting it kept the same. And then bam, wildly different poll result.

I'm sure it'll come back around anyway. One thing I don't think a lot of the 1850 supporters realize is that it's going to get worse. More decurions, more free points, more free rules, more free units. And armies will take them to be competitive.

A year from now, making it TO turn 5 will be an impressive feat in a game between two good lists where one doesn't get crippled out of the gate.

I have a feeling a lot of ITC voters weren't real big in the tournament scene and didn't realize how big 1850 is in a true competitive environment.

Good stuff on the pre-emptive drone nerf, crap like that has no place in the game.

Nice seeing GMCs reigned in as well.

_ghost_ wrote:

Spoiler:

Requizen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Wait, did Tau players think it was perfectly reasonable to just walk a unit on the board, vomit off free drones and weaponry, and then leave before they could be assaulted or shot? LOL

Seeing that is EXACTLY what the rules state, yes.

um



Where does it say you can do that the turn it comes in? It doesn't say you can't, but the only other units in the game that can willingly fly off the board into ongoing reserve are flyers and FMCs (and a few special rules) and they can't do it the same turn. It specifically says Flyers and FMCs can't do this. As that is the precedent, I don't see why ruling accordingly is surprising.

And from a gameplay perspective, yes an unkillable unit that gives you free shots and models is dumb. If they left it in the game I would have to question sanity. Any army without Interceptor (hint: most) could literally not even hurt them. Please tell me why that would be balanced.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And there is no "free weaponry" as they are 18" range so the actual piranhas will not be able to hit anything.

Because the opponents never come close to your board edge in your games? Drop pods don't exist? Linebreaker isn't a victory point? Infiltrate never happens? Do you see why this statement of yours is kind of asinine?

RAW:

Its absolutely legal to for this formation to leave the same turn they arrive.

1.) they enter the game pre movement as reserves.
2) they are allowed to dissembark the drones withc is still in their movement phase.
3) then if they are in 6" of the board edge they are allowed to leave.
Absolutely legal acording to RAW

in addition:
Are these guys flyers or flying MCs?
No they are not. so the rules that stop flyers and FMC to leave table the same turn they enter it do not apply here.

Face it. RAW this would be legal.

And don't come with " UNFAIR!" of stuff like this. RAW such arguments are worthless! ( But i would agree that this way of playing would suck. )

Mulletdude wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Where does it say you can do that the turn it comes in? It doesn't say you can't, but the only other units in the game that can willingly fly off the board into ongoing reserve are flyers and FMCs (and a few special rules) and they can't do it the same turn. It specifically says Flyers and FMCs can't do this. As that is the precedent, I don't see why ruling accordingly is surprising.

And from a gameplay perspective, yes an unkillable unit that gives you free shots and models is dumb. If they left it in the game I would have to question sanity. Any army without Interceptor (hint: most) could literally not even hurt them. Please tell me why that would be balanced.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And there is no "free weaponry" as they are 18" range so the actual piranhas will not be able to hit anything.

Because the opponents never come close to your board edge in your games? Drop pods don't exist? Linebreaker isn't a victory point? Infiltrate never happens? Do you see why this statement of yours is kind of asinine?

The bolded part is what I'd like to call your attention to. FMCs, Flyers, Mawlocks, Swooping Hawks, and the Piranha formation all have permission to enter ongoing reserves. All of them EXCEPT the Piranha formation have a restriction on them saying when they're not allowed to enter ongoing reserves. You cannot use the FMC/Flyer as precedent to change how the rules work for another unit when it's not restricted in its ruling. What you can do is change the rule at the TO level to make more sense and say you cannot leave the turn you arrive because of game balance.

To answer your string of questions. Drop pods are immune to drones. Linebreaker cannot be scored by the drones. Infiltrate will happen before anything regarding this formation ever happens. The only use the drones have is keeping things away from your deployment zone. This formation is especially bad on Hammer and Anvil, as the spawned drones will have a hard time reaching midfield.

I agree that the formation shouldn't be allowed to enter reserves the same turn it arrives, but for different reasons.

Look, I understand what you guys are saying, and I know that no one is saying they want the thing to stay in a completely overpowered state. Obviously we all want to play a relatively balanced game.

But any time you say "Well, I know it works this way in all these other relatively balanced situations, but RAW you can play it extremely broken and ignore all previous precedents in order to do so", you start going into That Guy territory. No one really thought that it was fair that you had an invincible unit that spawned more, free units was in any way fair, did they?

Mulletdude wrote:
To answer your string of questions. Drop pods are immune to drones. Linebreaker cannot be scored by the drones. Infiltrate will happen before anything regarding this formation ever happens. The only use the drones have is keeping things away from your deployment zone. This formation is especially bad on Hammer and Anvil, as the spawned drones will have a hard time reaching midfield.

I was more talking about your statement that '18" weapons on the Piranhas don't matter because they won't reach anything', which is blatantly false. 18" guns that come in from your own table edge can reach and hurt, as I said, drop pods, infiltrated units, and units going for linebreaker. And getting free regenerating missiles to do so is pretty good, even with these nerfs.

Requizen

You see whats going on? I see your point that the formation is not fun to play against especially when its maxed out. So a nerf on this can be the right thing. What it realy hard to oversee is the way these arguments go round. So many try to declare that it doesn't work RAW and then after taking a closer look it turns then out that its just a " that so OP" argument.

But any time you say "Well, I know it works this way in all these other relatively balanced situations, but RAW you can play it extremely broken and ignore all previous precedents in order to do so", you start going into That Guy territory. No one really thought that it was fair that you had an invincible unit that spawned more, free units was in any way fair, did they?

Is the same way. eighter we talk bout how the rules work. then we do this. OR we talk about how we should change rules to improve the experience. But trying to make a RAW-Statement n then suggesting one turns into getting TFG is... dishonest and a unfair way or arguing.

Unfortunatly i have seen this behavior so often. especialy with the actual Tau Codex.

I was talking RAI as opposed to RAW. RAW is such a crazy point to argue with GW anyway, since they're crap at making their rules work together and even when they acknowledge the confusion that they themselves create, they rarely do anything to fix it.

If it's vague enough that people are arguing it and your only defense is "well techinically RAW says I can break the game and there's nothing you can do about it", then I'm always going to argue that RAI it's not supposed to do that. In this specific case:

1) We have a precedent for models being able to fly off the board, and they can't do it the turn they come in.
2) If the Piranha formation was allowed to do so, then it would be pretty darn broken since you could create models for basically free as the unit spawning them would be even more invincible than a Screamerstar with Endurance and Invisibility.
3) This action is not fun or interactive for either player and even by GW's standards would be pretty dumb.

Therefore, RAI reasons that you don't get an invincible Drone factory. That's all I'm saying. Of course, RAI is always up for debate by it's very nature, but honestly the only people I can see defending that interpretation are people who are planning on abusing it. Most Tau players are fine with the "wait a turn" ruling because, surprise, they don't like ruining the game for people they play with.

It's like Wizards turning the final boss into a squirrel with Polymorph when you're playing D&D. Yes, I know it says you can turn anything into anything, but that's dumb and you should feel bad about doing it, DANIEL.