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Has this been asked on the GW FAQ facebook thing they started? Because we need an answer.

I completely agree with Kriswall's & Charistoph's RAW interpretation. There is no "basic" permission to use any rules associated with the D-Axe if the D-Axe isn't being used.

The problem is that one can argue (and many have) that the Colossal rule itself is given specific permission to make the model act in a certain manner at all times.

 Galef wrote:
Has this been asked on the GW FAQ facebook thing they started? Because we need an answer.

Yes, its been asked.

Am I the only one not holding my breath AT ALL for a FAQ based on a facebook thread?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice thought and effort, but I'd be more than a little shocked if we got anything resembling a comprehensive FAQ out of it. At least, not anytime soon.

I'm with you on that krump.
I doubt they expected to get as many as they did.

The rules monkeys are possibly on strike due to stress now.

Once again, there's no reason for them to have worded it differently unless it's supposed to be different in the way it's worded to be.

Why include "always".
Why make the rule "bloodlust" instead of just putting rampage on the weapon profile for a blade of blood. This is the one that really gets me. I can deal with the "always" being overridden I suppose, even though always seems to refer to at all times, all the time, every time. But the Bloodlust rule... if anyone has the daemon dex check it out.

I still contend that colossal is not affected by the "mixing and matching weapon abilities" text because that whole paragraph is about using weapons in the fight subphase, which you don't have to do to have colossal affect you. That's what the rule literally says. You can say I don't have access to the rule, but I'm certainly able to read it and think about what it's telling me regardless of what weapon I'm using. The words don't suddenly vanish off the page, and the rule doesn't care if you're using a weapon or drinking tea with it. Mixing and matching weapon abilities applies when you choose a weapon in the fight sub phase. Colossal applies "always".

No one has given a reason gw would word these differently in this way other than to signify this exact difference we're arguing about. If it isn't different, why would they word it to be different? And why word it to be different in this exact way if it's always overridden by a basic rule? This may be a RAI approach, but it's a good question in my opinion.

In either case, I know how my group will play it, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree here.

 Jackal wrote:
Where in the colossal rule does it state its only applied when the weapon is being used though?

This is the part that conflicts with the brb.

It says nothing about when using the weapon.
So why would using another weapon matter?

It simply states that owning the axe drops you to i1.



For the rules to work as you suggest, it would have to go on to add when using the axe.
But it doesn't, it stops after stating a model with the axe drops to i1.

I'm not saying a weapon's abilities are only "active" when the weapon is being used in combat. Per the BRB, I'm saying that a weapon's abilities are "active" all the time EXCEPT when a different weapon is being used to strike blows, which I interpret as a different weapon being used during the fight sub-phase.

Using another weapon matters because the BRB has an explicit restriction preventing you from mixing and matching in weapon abilities when another weapon is being used.

The rule doesn't have to go on to add "when using the axe". I freely acknowledge that merely possessing the axe drops a model down to initiative step 1. HOWEVER, using a different weapon to fight with temporarily "turns off" that ability based on the restriction preventing mixing and matching of weapon abilities.

How do you turn off an ability that must always remain on?

The colossal rule is triggered at the start of the game and shuts down when it's ended.
The only triggers are the start and end of the game.



At the end of the day though, I feel we could both wander round in circles and never come out with a dead set resolution.

I feel this is the time for me to shake your hand and part ways as we really aren't getting anywhere.
I think the only resolution that will come is if/when GW FAQ it for us.

So, good day Kris

 Jackal wrote:
How do you turn off an ability that must always remain on?

The colossal rule is triggered at the start of the game and shuts down when it's ended.
The only triggers are the start and end of the game.



At the end of the day though, I feel we could both wander round in circles and never come out with a dead set resolution.

I feel this is the time for me to shake your hand and part ways as we really aren't getting anywhere.
I think the only resolution that will come is if/when GW FAQ it for us.

So, good day Kris

You do so by reading and comprehending the More Than One Weapon rules and realizing that when you have more than one melee weapon during a fight, you don't get to use both of their rules. In essence, your assumption that the Colossal rule must "always remain on" is a false assumption.

But yeah, once a person has made up their mind, no amount of pointing to actual rules text will change their mind. I get that. I run into it all the time on this forum. Confirmation bias is tough to get around. Work it out with your local gaming club/opponents and enjoy.

Good day to you as well!

 Jackal wrote:
How do you turn off an ability that must always remain on?

The colossal rule is triggered at the start of the game and shuts down when it's ended.
The only triggers are the start and end of the game.



At the end of the day though, I feel we could both wander round in circles and never come out with a dead set resolution.

I feel this is the time for me to shake your hand and part ways as we really aren't getting anywhere.
I think the only resolution that will come is if/when GW FAQ it for us.

So, good day Kris

I wouldn't call it an ability, it's more of a persistent effect. I agree with Kriswall's & Charistoph's RAW interpretation as well. The rule really only makes sense when using the weapon, regardless of how it is worded. They could of gave the model Colossal as a base rule, but they didn't.

The thing is, the only time you can choose to use another weapon (and therefore ignore the Colossal rule) is when you "strike blows".

Colossal says you don't "strike blows" (identical wording) until Initiative Step 1. So by the time you can pick another weapon, you have already followed the Colossal rule anyways.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Slowly but surely this BT becomes less and less appealing.

I never run BT's. Personally, I think they're about a useful as C'Tan. I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but here's my reasoning:

1. I1 is garbage against everything. Imperial Knights will hit you with their D first. Pun intended.
2. STR 3 weapons can hurt you.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The thing is, the only time you can choose to use another weapon (and therefore ignore the Colossal rule) is when you "strike blows".

Colossal says you don't "strike blows" (identical wording) until Initiative Step 1. So by the time you can pick another weapon, you have already followed the Colossal rule anyways.

Sigh... I'll play devil's advocate. I choose to attack with a weapon that does not have Colossal. Initiative Step 1 rolls around. I get ready to roll my to hit rolls. If, as you seem to imply, this is the moment of striking blows, I immediately lose Colossal and have no permission to finish rolling the dice as I'm not Initiative 1 and am not striking with any weapons that would cause me to strike at Initiative Step 1. You've now created a situation where you both have to strike at Initiative Step 1 and can't strike at Initiative Step 1. Congrats. Your interpretation breaks the game by creating an unsolvable situation.

Any thoughts? What am I doing wrong. In the above example, show me the explicit permission that allows/requires you to fight at Initiative Step 1 AND allows you to obey the more than one weapons rules.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The thing is, the only time you can choose to use another weapon (and therefore ignore the Colossal rule) is when you "strike blows".

Colossal says you don't "strike blows" (identical wording) until Initiative Step 1. So by the time you can pick another weapon, you have already followed the Colossal rule anyways.

Sigh... I'll play devil's advocate. I choose to attack with a weapon that does not have Colossal. Initiative Step 1 rolls around. I get ready to roll my to hit rolls. If, as you seem to imply, this is the moment of striking blows, I immediately lose Colossal and have no permission to finish rolling the dice as I'm not Initiative 1 and am not striking with any weapons that would cause me to strike at Initiative Step 1. You've now created a situation where you both have to strike at Initiative Step 1 and can't strike at Initiative Step 1. Congrats. Your interpretation breaks the game by creating an unsolvable situation.

Any thoughts? What am I doing wrong. In the above example, show me the explicit permission that allows/requires you to fight at Initiative Step 1 AND allows you to obey the more than one weapons rules.

You're not doing anything wrong. There is no rule that says a model must make close combat attacks. So, by choosing a weapon that would require a higher initiative step, you've forfeited your attacks as we have no permission to go back and resolve it. It would be like a Sergeant of a Tactical Marine squad trying to use a Power Sword but waiting to Initiative Step 1 to declare it, and therefore makes no attacks as Initiative Step 4 has already passed.

Since you are not required by the rules to make close combat attacks, then if a situation results in which close combat attacks can't be made, then they simply aren't made.

 Kriswall wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I really don't understand how this thread is still up and running. The rule is very straight forward. a D thirster is always I1 in CC due to having the colossal rule. I think someone is trolling.

This isn't D&D, you can't free action drop your weapon and fight with your fists. You cannot sheath your sword and take out your hammer as a swift action. You have your weapons, you fight with them. The D thirster is always holding his big, heavy axe. Always, he cannot drop it. You could buy an axe of khorne and a greater eatherblade and the bloodthirster would go pirate mode and hold on in his mouth, still holding all 3 weapons.

Yaaar, ye still be strikin' at initiative 1, for ye weapon be colossal! Now let this thread die, and stop tryin' to cheat da rules 'cause ye want a super thirster!

And yet, we do have rules that deal with what happens when we have more than one melee weapon and choose weapon A over weapon B.

As has been repeatedly said, having the weapon makes you act (take your turn) at Initiative step 1. That is clearly said in the rules, you just keep ignoring it. What you do at that point is then up to you, but it is not your turn until then.

The rest of your message doesn't matter here at all, as I have shown.

As has been repeatedly said, attacking with one weapon means you don't use any weapon abilities from other weapons. That is clearly said in the rules, you just keep ignoring it. Etc, etc. Works both ways.

How is that so? Let's go by your example of powerfist + lightning claw. Powerfist makes you act init 1 if you choose to strike with it. When is it your turn to act according to the rulebook (I suggest you go through that section of attacking)? It's on your initiative step. Now at this point is your first chance to pick your weapons. If don't attack with the Claw, you can later elect to attack with the PF, at initiative step 1. Simple, yes?

Your side of the argument has yet to demonstrate that the Colossal rule is allowed to be "mixed and matched" with the abilities of whichever other weapon is actually being used.

My side of the argument is that according to the rules you do not get to act or make any decision before you are at Initiative step 1. The colossal rule clearly states that. What gives you a permission to ignore that rule and make a decision to use a specific weapon out of your turn? Again, do re-read that part of the rules, it's quite clear.

When I use a Power Fist, I don't bother reading my Lightning Claw's Shred ability because I'm not allowed to mix and match it with the abilities of my Power Fist. Shred effectively isn't "active" during a fight unless I'm using the Lightning Claw. In LITERALLY EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, Colossal isn't "active" during a fight unless I'm using that weapon.

I addressed that already. When you get to your character's Initiative, you make the choice whether you want to attack with the Claw. If you don't, you can still make your attacks at Init 1 with the PF.

What the tournaments have ruled is nothing but a house rule, it has no basis in the rules as I have demonstrated.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
You do so by reading and comprehending the More Than One Weapon rules and realizing that when you have more than one melee weapon during a fight, you don't get to use both of their rules.

Could you point out to this reader when the rules tell you to choose your weapon to fight with, according to the rulebook? Quotation is preferable with an explanation why you think it works that way.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The thing is, the only time you can choose to use another weapon (and therefore ignore the Colossal rule) is when you "strike blows".

Colossal says you don't "strike blows" (identical wording) until Initiative Step 1. So by the time you can pick another weapon, you have already followed the Colossal rule anyways.

Sigh... I'll play devil's advocate. I choose to attack with a weapon that does not have Colossal. Initiative Step 1 rolls around. I get ready to roll my to hit rolls. If, as you seem to imply, this is the moment of striking blows, I immediately lose Colossal and have no permission to finish rolling the dice as I'm not Initiative 1 and am not striking with any weapons that would cause me to strike at Initiative Step 1. You've now created a situation where you both have to strike at Initiative Step 1 and can't strike at Initiative Step 1. Congrats. Your interpretation breaks the game by creating an unsolvable situation.

Any thoughts? What am I doing wrong. In the above example, show me the explicit permission that allows/requires you to fight at Initiative Step 1 AND allows you to obey the more than one weapons rules.

You're not doing anything wrong. There is no rule that says a model must make close combat attacks. So, by choosing a weapon that would require a higher initiative step, you've forfeited your attacks as we have no permission to go back and resolve it. It would be like a Sergeant of a Tactical Marine squad trying to use a Power Sword but waiting to Initiative Step 1 to declare it, and therefore makes no attacks as Initiative Step 4 has already passed.

Since you are not required by the rules to make close combat attacks, then if a situation results in which close combat attacks can't be made, then they simply aren't made.

Thank you! This is exactly how it goes and is fully supported by the wording in the rules of Initiative steps in BRB.

Unwieldy: 'A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiaitve step 1, unless it is a monstrous creature or walker.'

Shred: 'If a model has the Shred special rule, or is attacking with a melee weapon with the Shred special rule, it re-rolls failed to Wound rolls in close combat.

Similarly, if a model makes a shooting attack with a weapon that has the Shred special rule, it re-rolls failed to wound rolls.'

Colossal: 'A model with this weapon piles in and fights at Initiative step 1.'

Both Unwieldy and Shred specify that a model must be attacking with the weapon with the special rule in order to gain its effects. Colossal does not, ergo, Colossal applies even when not fighting with the Colossal weapon.

The same for the Blade of Blood, which simply grants its wielder Rampage.

Regarding the mixing and matching of abilities that has been referenced several times. This passage of the BRB is referring to the stats of the weapons I. E. You can't mix and match strength, AP values etc from different weapons when making melee attacks. Also within the Weapons section of the BRB (from where this mix/match business is included) Special Rules are defined as being listed under the weapon type and are explicitly referred to as special rules, never as abilities. Special Rules relevant to melee weapons would include ones such as Shred and Colossal.

Also, even if the prohibition of mixing and matching of abilities were relevant in this case (it isn't), basic vs advanced rules would then apply. As previously stated, rules like Shred require the model to be making attacks with the weapon in question in order for the effect to apply. Colossal has no such condition and so the rule would always apply, taking precedence over a basic rule of not being able to mix/match.

For the record I play Daemonkin & Daemons myself and even if I wished it otherwise, from my first reading of the Colossal rule it was unambiguous that the D thirstier would be going at I1. I can't really believe this thread got further than a few posts to be honest. On the other hand, if you're wanting your D thirstier to strike with a weapon other than its great axe you've either taken the wrong thirster or have got it in a situation it shouldn't be in imo.

We're obviously not going to hit a consensus here. Neither weapon ability nor striking blows is defined. This situation requires interpretation, with different people interpreting different ways.

My suggestion is to come to an agreement with your gaming group, check with organizers before an event and discuss with any new opponents you meet during a game.

RaW is ambiguous in this case due to undefined gaming terms that fail when we try to use normal definitions. For example... "come to strike blows" isn't the same as "strike blows". "Strike blows" could definitely mean making to-hit rolls... or it could mean making to-wound rolls. "Come to strike blows" could mean just showing up to the fight. "Come" is the active part... not "to strike blows". One could pretty easily argue that a model COMES to strike blows by showing up to the fight. Why are you here? I've come to strike blows. In that sense, waiting until to-hit rolls are made seems wrong. The model clearly showed up to fight BEFORE the to-hit rolls are made.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Regarding the mixing and matching of abilities that has been referenced several times. This passage of the BRB is referring to the stats of the weapons I. E. You can't mix and match strength, AP values etc from different weapons when making melee attacks.

Incorrect. It specifically states abilities.

MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot – he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. However, it’s worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat.

The inability to mix and match abilities is specifically stated, nor is anything mentioned regarding Str and AP.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Also within the Weapons section of the BRB (from where this mix/match business is included) Special Rules are defined as being listed under the weapon type and are explicitly referred to as special rules, never as abilities. Special Rules relevant to melee weapons would include ones such as Shred and Colossal.

Not in the Weapons section itself, but the Special Rules section, which is referred to by the Weapons section, does state that Special Rules are abilities in its introduction. Or at least, those Special Rules are used to point to those abilities and represent them on the appropriate section.

Special Rules
The type section of a weapon’s profile also includes any special rules that apply to the weapon in question. More information on these can be found either in the special rules section or in the codex or army list entry the weapon is found in.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model’s chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength. Conversely, a special rule may improve a model’s survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the skies.

So, yeah, Special Rules represent abilities and you cannot mix and match abilities from different weapons when using only one.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Also, even if the prohibition of mixing and matching of abilities were relevant in this case (it isn't), basic vs advanced rules would then apply. As previously stated, rules like Shred require the model to be making attacks with the weapon in question in order for the effect to apply. Colossal has no such condition and so the rule would always apply, taking precedence over a basic rule of not being able to mix/match.

It is relevant, as pointed out above. Basic vs Advanced would not necessarily come in to play because this rule does not tell us to use it while another weapon is being used. So, any Weapon Special Rules are otherwise inaccessible while using another Weapon.

It isn't relevant unless you go fishing for ways to make it relevant. The rules for using multiple weapons are irrelevant, because this version of colossal does not require a weapon to be used at all. It is not an ability tied to the weapon ' s use in close combat. It is always active and has been worded to be always active for a reason.

It's abundantly clear regardless of your "RAW" interpretation that the d thirster is supposed to always pile in and strike at initiative one because that's what the bloody rule says.

No one from your camp has bothered to examine the blade of blood, which under your interpretation has a rule created for it that's completely pointless, worded entirely differently from simply having the rampage USR on the weapon for apparently no reason as it makes no difference whatsoever, according to you.

I think that's a good indication that A) you're mistaken or B) the rules are poorly written and ambiguous.

I'm inclined to go with A in this case. It's entirely unambiguous and clear what the rule does, and it follows logically from simply following the rules text as written.

Post the profile and weapon abilities for the Blade of Blood and I'll be happy to respond.

Also, the fact that the rules are poorly written and ambiguous in general is sort of a given. I do agree that the rule text of Colossal is unambiguous. The ambiguity is surrounding when exactly we're allowed to, or more specifically not allowed to, resolve those rules.

Blade of Blood - Str user ap2 unwieldy, Bloodlust

Bloodlust: the bearer of the Blade of Blood has rampage.

What I'm saying is, this entire rule and format of presenting it is completely pointless under your interpretation. It operates the exact same as simply:

Blade of Blood: Str user ap2 unwieldy, rampage.

Under your interpretation. I think they worded it differently for a reason, the reason being that you're supposed to follow the RAW of the Bloodlust rule which has an effect regardless of attacking with the weapon or not, and has indeed been worded explicitly t do exactly that.

On a side note, what is the first step of the fight subphase, after a charge has been made?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It isn't relevant unless you go fishing for ways to make it relevant. The rules for using multiple weapons are irrelevant, because this version of colossal does not require a weapon to be used at all. It is not an ability tied to the weapon ' s use in close combat. It is always active and has been worded to be always active for a reason.

Do not project. I am not fishing, I am simply applying the rules as I understand them. One could as easily state that ignoring the More Than One Weapon in favor of interpreting the "always" in Colossal to extend beyond the Weapon's Type abilities is also fishing.

Being tied to the weapon's use is irrelevant, the simple fact is we do not have permission to access the rule in the first place is what places it outside of bounds and therefore useless. Is the Colossal rule in its Weapon Type or not? If it is, then it cannot be used when another Weapon is in use.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's abundantly clear regardless of your "RAW" interpretation that the d thirster is supposed to always pile in and strike at initiative one because that's what the bloody rule says.

If it was abundantly clear, this discussion would have been done on the first page. Apparently, this is not the case. Some are giving the "always" precedence, while others are saying that the "always" is not accessible in the first place, therefore having zero precedence.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No one from your camp has bothered to examine the blade of blood, which under your interpretation has a rule created for it that's completely pointless, worded entirely differently from simply having the rampage USR on the weapon for apparently no reason as it makes no difference whatsoever, according to you.

It has been mentioned once or twice, but no one has presented the rules for it in correlation to this case. I have seen claims on it, but that is all. Hardly a case to whine about a lack of argument it. If you choose to provide a counter case with it, present the rules with the argument, don't just accuse.

Well, my apologies Charistoph. I really didn't think I was whining but I can see how it seemed that way.

You will Notice I posted the rules just now. I honestly thought I didn't need to say much more than I already had to convey the rules, but in the future I'll do a better job of providing them if I want discussion on them.

I don't have my rulebook with me, might I inquire as to the first step of the fight sub phase? Do you pile in before you select a weapon? Because if you do, you would have to wait til initiative step 1 to select a different weapon and strike blows anyways, as up until that point even under your interpretation you must pile in at initiative 1 and don't yet have "permission" to ignore the Colossal rule because you haven't yet selected another weapon.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I don't have my rulebook with me, might I inquire as to the first step of the fight sub phase? Do you pile in before you select a weapon? Because if you do, you would have to wait til initiative step 1 to select a different weapon and strike blows anyways, as up until that point even under your interpretation you must pile in at initiative 1 and don't yet have "permission" to ignore the Colossal rule because you haven't yet selected another weapon.

It is not stated at which point a Weapon is selected in the Fight Sub-Phase. The closest is the introduction which states:

With all the assaults launched, it’s time to strike blows! How effective creatures are in close combat depends almost entirely on their physical characteristics – how fast, strong, tough and ferocious they are. In close combat, armour remains useful for warding off your enemies’ attacks, but ranged weapons become a secondary consideration – the best gun in the galaxy won’t save you if your opponent is bashing your brains out with a rock!

This when tied to the More Than One Weapon rule referenced earlier regarding using a Weapon to Strike Blows is the only indication of timing. Which indicates that the Weapon would be chosen at the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, disabling any Weapon Abilities of any other Weapons the model may have. In a way, it would have to in order for Unwieldy to be appropriately applied as well, as it also addresses Pile In.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Blade of Blood - Str user ap2 unwieldy, Bloodlust

Bloodlust: the bearer of the Blade of Blood has rampage.

What I'm saying is, this entire rule and format of presenting it is completely pointless under your interpretation. It operates the exact same as simply:

Blade of Blood: Str user ap2 unwieldy, rampage.

Under your interpretation. I think they worded it differently for a reason, the reason being that you're supposed to follow the RAW of the Bloodlust rule which has an effect regardless of attacking with the weapon or not, and has indeed been worded explicitly t do exactly that.

On a side note, what is the first step of the fight subphase, after a charge has been made?

It's not quite exactly the same as just writing Rampage. Bloodlust sounds much cooler than Rampage! But yeah, functionally identical to just putting Rampage in the same section.

As to your side note, I don't have my BRB with me. You'll have to check yourself or wait until much later when I have my rules with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I don't have my rulebook with me, might I inquire as to the first step of the fight sub phase? Do you pile in before you select a weapon? Because if you do, you would have to wait til initiative step 1 to select a different weapon and strike blows anyways, as up until that point even under your interpretation you must pile in at initiative 1 and don't yet have "permission" to ignore the Colossal rule because you haven't yet selected another weapon.

It is not stated at which point a Weapon is selected in the Fight Sub-Phase. The closest is the introduction which states:

With all the assaults launched, it’s time to strike blows! How effective creatures are in close combat depends almost entirely on their physical characteristics – how fast, strong, tough and ferocious they are. In close combat, armour remains useful for warding off your enemies’ attacks, but ranged weapons become a secondary consideration – the best gun in the galaxy won’t save you if your opponent is bashing your brains out with a rock!

This when tied to the More Than One Weapon rule referenced earlier regarding using a Weapon to Strike Blows is the only indication of timing. Which indicates that the Weapon would be chosen at the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, disabling any Weapon Abilities of any other Weapons the model may have. In a way, it would have to in order for Unwieldy to be appropriately applied as well, as it also addresses Pile In.

I agree that this wording indicates we should pick our weapon at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, BEFORE getting into the various Initiative Steps.

Okay, so you think GW made the Bloodlust rule just cause it sounds cooler, not because they wanted to word it differently and resolve differently in the way they worded it to be different?

I can't understand that point of view myself, but I can completely accept that you have it. Thanks for replying about it.

That part about the fight sub phase does, to me, present a RAW argument against it in tandem with mixing and matching weapon abilities. I will concede that my argument must thus be RAI, and thus my stance is HIWPI, even if to me it is blatantly obvious RAI.

GW really likes to muck all these rules up.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
GW really likes to muck all these rules up.

I 100% agree.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, so you think GW made the Bloodlust rule just cause it sounds cooler, not because they wanted to word it differently and resolve differently in the way they worded it to be different?

I can't understand that point of view myself, but I can completely accept that you have it. Thanks for replying about it.

Well, sometimes a model may not come with it, but they may want the option to provide it through a Relic or other Wargear, so they use this option.

Another way to look at it could be that it would be from a Wargear side:
Blade of Blood
The bearer of the Blade of Blood has Rampage. In addition, this is a Weapon with the following profile:
Range: -; Str: User; AP: 2, Melee, Unwieldy

This would allow the Blade of Blood to apply Rampage to the model even if they were using a Pistols' CCW profile, as the Bloodlust rule is not tied to the Weapon profile, but more to the Wargear-side of the profile.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
That part about the fight sub phase does, to me, present a RAW argument against it in tandem with mixing and matching weapon abilities. I will concede that my argument must thus be RAI, and thus my stance is HIWPI, even if to me it is blatantly obvious RAI.

Yeah, they didn't really do much in regards to specifying it very well, did they? That is why their Facebook post went huge, even after tossing out the trash responses.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
GW really likes to muck all these rules up.

It's not so much that they like to, it is more that they just do not care. But, yeah, no other argument on that front.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I don't have my rulebook with me, might I inquire as to the first step of the fight sub phase? Do you pile in before you select a weapon? Because if you do, you would have to wait til initiative step 1 to select a different weapon and strike blows anyways, as up until that point even under your interpretation you must pile in at initiative 1 and don't yet have "permission" to ignore the Colossal rule because you haven't yet selected another weapon.

It is not stated at which point a Weapon is selected in the Fight Sub-Phase. The closest is the introduction which states:

With all the assaults launched, it’s time to strike blows! How effective creatures are in close combat depends almost entirely on their physical characteristics – how fast, strong, tough and ferocious they are. In close combat, armour remains useful for warding off your enemies’ attacks, but ranged weapons become a secondary consideration – the best gun in the galaxy won’t save you if your opponent is bashing your brains out with a rock!

This when tied to the More Than One Weapon rule referenced earlier regarding using a Weapon to Strike Blows is the only indication of timing. Which indicates that the Weapon would be chosen at the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, disabling any Weapon Abilities of any other Weapons the model may have. In a way, it would have to in order for Unwieldy to be appropriately applied as well, as it also addresses Pile In.

I agree that this wording indicates we should pick our weapon at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, BEFORE getting into the various Initiative Steps.

I do not agree with any of the above. Let's look at the rules again.

Page 48 of BRB, under Fight sub-phase, FIGHT CLOSE COMBAT:
In close combat, both players' models fight. [...] How many blows are struck and who strikes first is detailed later.

The section that details this later is called INITIATIVE STEPS:
a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. [...] Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached, assuming they haven't already been killed by a model with a higher Initiative! [...] Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.

We aren't given any other instructions. As the rules say, a model is not allowed to make any decisions until it is their Initiative step and in the case of the Colossal rule they are always acting at Initiative step 1. What you have stated above doesn't give you permission to choose a weapon out of your turn, you need to take the whole rules into account.

Naw wrote:
I do not agree with any of the above. Let's look at the rules again.

Page 48 of BRB, under Fight sub-phase, FIGHT CLOSE COMBAT:
In close combat, both players' models fight. [...] How many blows are struck and who strikes first is detailed later.

The section that details this later is called INITIATIVE STEPS:
a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat. [...] Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached, assuming they haven't already been killed by a model with a higher Initiative! [...] Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.

We aren't given any other instructions. As the rules say, a model is not allowed to make any decisions until it is their Initiative step and in the case of the Colossal rule they are always acting at Initiative step 1. What you have stated above doesn't give you permission to choose a weapon out of your turn, you need to take the whole rules into account.

Nothing you quoted actually counters anything Kriswall or I stated. The whole section of the Fight Sub-Phase is about striking blows, that is the point of the introduction. But again, nothing specific as to when the Weapon is selected is stated.

Also keep in mind that both Necrons and 'Nids have Weapons which increase Initiative, and so would have to be taken in to account as much as Unwieldy and Colossal, except that they must be applied before the model's base Initiative is considered in the Step process.