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Jihadin wrote: I dislike snipers. I seriously hate snipers who know what they are doing. I just hate the untrained sniper who don't know what they are doing. These Chuckleheads have some intelligence but not the full knowledge to be truly dangerous.
They were dangerous. Looks like they hit more than they missed and spread panic. But yes, it could have been so much worse.
The video showing the one perp capping the cop by the columns indicates some level of training. The guy moved very well.
It was an army veteran apparently, which would go some way to explaining it.
it was already stated they seemed to move with military type abilities and strategies. It does not surprise me at all.
I'm a bit surprised that veterans would believe that murdering cops was an effective solution to a problem or some kind of worthwhile political statement.
Prestor Jon wrote: I'm a bit surprised that veterans would believe that murdering cops was an effective solution to a problem or some kind of worthwhile political statement.
It doesn't seem to stop the sovereign citizen crazies from targeting cops.
Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Jihadin wrote: I dislike snipers. I seriously hate snipers who know what they are doing. I just hate the untrained sniper who don't know what they are doing. These Chuckleheads have some intelligence but not the full knowledge to be truly dangerous.
They were dangerous. Looks like they hit more than they missed and spread panic. But yes, it could have been so much worse.
The video showing the one perp capping the cop by the columns indicates some level of training. The guy moved very well.
It was an army veteran apparently, which would go some way to explaining it.
it was already stated they seemed to move with military type abilities and strategies. It does not surprise me at all.
I'm a bit surprised that veterans would believe that murdering cops was an effective solution to a problem or some kind of worthwhile political statement.
Prestor, this is not the movies, and we are not robots. The military is made up of America's sons and daughters, and we are as flawed as the rest of Americans can be. You see this less with the long term Soldiers and Marines, but more with the single term enlistees who come in, get trained, and come out to use their new skills for nefarious purposes. I learned in EO school it is a an actual thing that gangs send in recruits to get trained, then get out, come home and train up the gangs. So that kind of statement is misleading and inflamatory. I am not sure you meant it that way, but please understand we have a hard enough time integrating ourselves into society once we are done with our service.
Also most veterans care little for politics, with the exception of so many on this forum for some reason.
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Spetulhu wrote: Sure, I can see how it's bad that badly trained police shoot people almost at random. But how are you going to get better police if you shoot some totally unrelated police officers? Guys who were actually doing their jobs, threatening no one and keeping a peaceful demonstration safe?
IMO they were targeted for being Police, not because they were Dallas police. This could have happened in Alaska, Rhode Island, anywhere...
As I said, rightly or wrongly, there are sections of American society who see police as the 'enemy' and America has to come together and address this issue. It won't go away...
They were not targeted for just for being police according to the perp. He targeted them first for being white. He said he wanted to kill whites, especially white cops.
At least that is what came out of the press conference.
I'm not doubting what you heard, but given that there were white people marching with the original demonstration, perhaps the motivations for this are still unclear.
None the less, and working under the assumption that the police were deliberately targeted, it is still a major issue that American society needs to solve.
The solutions for dealing with this, and making your police 'better' are out there. In America, or in friendly nations like my country, there is plenty of material out there for American law enforcement to use.
I do not think it is unclear at all, unless the perp lied about his motivation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Or a hateful racist murderer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 15:32:05
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Sure, and next you'll tell us that soldiers are people too and not some living avatars of righteousness and purity.
Anyway...to steal a tweet from someone else: "I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this."
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Jihadin wrote: I dislike snipers. I seriously hate snipers who know what they are doing. I just hate the untrained sniper who don't know what they are doing. These Chuckleheads have some intelligence but not the full knowledge to be truly dangerous.
They were dangerous. Looks like they hit more than they missed and spread panic. But yes, it could have been so much worse.
The video showing the one perp capping the cop by the columns indicates some level of training. The guy moved very well.
It was an army veteran apparently, which would go some way to explaining it.
it was already stated they seemed to move with military type abilities and strategies. It does not surprise me at all.
I'm a bit surprised that veterans would believe that murdering cops was an effective solution to a problem or some kind of worthwhile political statement.
Prestor, this is not the movies, and we are not robots. The military is made up of America's sons and daughters, and we are as flawed as the rest of Americans can be. You see this less with the long term Soldiers and Marines, but more with the single term enlistees who come in, get trained, and come out to use their new skills for nefarious purposes. I learned in EO school it is a an actual thing that gangs send in recruits to get trained, then get out, come home and train up the gangs. So that kind of statement is misleading and inflamatory. I am not sure you meant it that way, but please understand we have a hard enough time integrating ourselves into society once we are done with our service.
Also most veterans care little for politics, with the exception of so many on this forum for some reason.
I know, it's just me having preconceptions based on my own anecdotal experience with veterans.
I'm also surprised that this incident happened almost exactly 1 year after a white guy shot up the Dallas PD station and tried to kill a bunch of cops. It seems to be completely unrelated but it's certainly an eerie coincidence.
Earlier, I mentioned that US police could learn from other countries, and here's a link to an article where an expert appeared before a White House committee and called for the US law enforcement agencies to adopt the British model.
The British system is obviously not perfect, but it could help reduce tension, and ensure better relations between police and ethnic minorities in the USA, which will hopefully prevent tragedies like this from happening again...
The main points if you don't want to click on the link:
1) A Chief inspector of constabulary for every state/agency. These guys or gals are tasked with raising standards, improving training, etc etc
2) Each state to have its own IPCC (Independent police complaints commission) with beefed up powers. It would be answerable to the state governor/legislator for accountability issues.
3) Body cameras for individual police officers. The benefits of this speak for themselves.
4) Larger minimum staff sizes. Might not be easy with fiscal constraints.
5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted. Obviously, If somebody starts shotting at a police officer, they have every right to shoot back, but pulling a gun should be a last resort.
Talk is cheap.
Will these methods be adopted or even work in the USA? It's hard to tell, because obviously gun levels in the USA are far different from the UK, but I think it's worth a try to change things and prevent more tragedies such as this.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
H.B.M.C. wrote: Careful Asterios, believing that people should be treated not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their soul is likely to get you labelled a racist. Yes, that's ass backwards I know, but *shrugs* it's the current year!
No, it isn't racism to claim that all live matter. But it is deliberately ignorant to continue to believe that 'black lives matter' means that only black lives matter, or that they matter more than other lives. The group is saying society acts as if black lives matter less, and they are looking to address that. The response that 'all lives matter' is walking right past the point, and doing so with the calculated intent of ignoring the grievances that are specific to black people.
I beg to differ when I don't see that group protesting when White people are killed by Cops, or even Hispanic or Asian people killed by cops, only when Black people are killed by cops, more white people are killed by cops every year then black people are, those are statistical facts, so I repeat I believe all lives matter and while all cop shootings (of suspects of any race)are not legitimate some are. you claim the BLM matters to everyone and yet they only protest when one color, one race is killed by cops, not all races or all colors, but one race one color, which makes them racist in my book putting one race above all others.
we had a white male near here who was mentally challenged and homeless, did nothing and the cops killed him, where was the BLM then?
Prestor Jon wrote: [spoiler]
I'm not privy to any more information than the news reports we're all reading I just wanted to caution against jumping to conclusions that the murderers were veterans because I don't see any conclusive evidence that they were. When more information is made public we'll hopefully learn a lot more about the murderers and their motivations.
not saying veterans, just saying they received training, military training, not all military training is in our armed services.
Ironically perhaps, that is the message that is being sent out... If you want to protect your family, get a gun and do it yourself. If you don't want to be raped, get a gun and protect yourself. If you feel you are being marginalised by the system, get a gun and fight back... This is the message that is being constantly drummed into people, and it's the wrong message. People should be encouraged to work towards a better and safer society that rejects violence, not one that embraces it.
tell it to those innocent victims who are killed by intruders because they didn't have a gun, or that family who was killed because they did not have a gun to protect themselves, I advocate the proper use of firearms for self defense to protect you and your family, what those shooters did was not that, what they did was a racist attack plain and simple, a racist attack on individuals who were innocent and had done nothing to deserve what happened to them and for you to even suggest what you do shows your disrespect for this country and its Constitution.
redleger wrote: It may be a reflection of social attitudes, but being righteous does not keep you alive when someone is trying to do you harm.
And that is exactly the kind of rhetoric that Americans are being exposed to on a daily basis. The idea that you need a gun or you'll be in danger, and the police can't protect you. If you are that afraid of violent crime, and have that little faith in the police, then perhaps the message should be "we need to invest more in our society", not "you're own your own, make sure you're armed".
Don't get me wrong, I can see the logic in having a gun as a contingency. But there is a lot of rhetoric and propaganda that goes along with that, which I believe is unhelpful, and might even have contributed to a number of violent incidents, including the murder of these police officers. I believe it is also pushing society towards a more fearful and dangerous situation.
waiting for the police to show up? tell that to the people of my town where the Police Chief went on the news and said they will not respond to home alarms unless the know someone is in danger(which makes me laugh whenever a security company tries to sell their security alarms) furthermore you think the criminal or murdered or rapist breaking into your house is going to wait for the cops to show up? (oh excuse me Mr. Criminal but could you please wait for the police to show up and deal with you?), we do need guns because on a whole Police cannot protect us, and if random killings like these happen more on innocent cops, we might not have cops to do anything. and how is investing in society going to get rid of crime? how will it make crime disappear?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Earlier, I mentioned that US police could learn from other countries, and here's a link to an article where an expert appeared before a White House committee and called for the US law enforcement agencies to adopt the British model.
The British system is obviously not perfect, but it could help reduce tension, and ensure better relations between police and ethnic minorities in the USA, which will hopefully prevent tragedies like this from happening again...
The main points if you don't want to click on the link:
1) A Chief inspector of constabulary for every state/agency. These guys or gals are tasked with raising standards, improving training, etc etc
2) Each state to have its own IPCC (Independent police complaints commission) with beefed up powers. It would be answerable to the state governor/legislator for accountability issues.
3) Body cameras for individual police officers. The benefits of this speak for themselves.
4) Larger minimum staff sizes. Might not be easy with fiscal constraints.
5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted. Obviously, If somebody starts shotting at a police officer, they have every right to shoot back, but pulling a gun should be a last resort.
Talk is cheap.
Will these methods be adopted or even work in the USA? It's hard to tell, because obviously gun levels in the USA are far different from the UK, but I think it's worth a try to change things and prevent more tragedies such as this.
actually a lot of those policies are in effect in this country in various places (not all, but many)
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted.
I don't see how this can happen in the US. If you're a cop and someone reaches for their belt, what are you going to do? I think there would need to be quite a long process of de-escalation and disarmament of the public, before police in the US would feel as safe as their counterparts in the UK. That doesn't seem very likely IMO.
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Sure, and next you'll tell us that soldiers are people too and not some living avatars of righteousness and purity.
Anyway...to steal a tweet from someone else: "I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this."
Depends on the situation.
As for the possible shooters being Combat Vet's, not. If so their some REMF's. If they were 11B's it would have been worse. Is "Triangulation" the new word for "crossfire?"
A Dallas police source estimated to Fox News that at least 60 rounds were fired over a "large kill zone." The source added that the shooting would have required considerable planning
.........brb to finish this
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No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted.
I don't see how this can happen in the US. If you're a cop and someone reaches for their belt, what are you going to do? I think there would need to be quite a long process of de-escalation and disarmament of the public, before police in the US would feel as safe as their counterparts in the UK. That doesn't seem very likely IMO.
In some situations, police will have no choice but to shoot. That's human nature and reality, and I understand that. But creating a 'last resort' culture, and recognising that talk is cheap, and that some situations can be de-escalated peacefully, should be a long-term goal for American police IMO.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted.
I don't see how this can happen in the US. If you're a cop and someone reaches for their belt, what are you going to do? I think there would need to be quite a long process of de-escalation and disarmament of the public, before police in the US would feel as safe as their counterparts in the UK. That doesn't seem very likely IMO.
Escalaltion of force is already written into most states' self defense and carry laws and is established protocol for police. Police just get a lot more leeway on it from the courts than an armed citizen would.
The terrible idea that cops have to adopt the attitude that they have to treat everyone like they're a threat in order to protect themselves is just another instance of bad training and practices that afflict a lot of police departments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 16:02:52
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Sure, and next you'll tell us that soldiers are people too and not some living avatars of righteousness and purity.
Anyway...to steal a tweet from someone else: "I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this."
Depends on the situation.
As for the possible shooters being Combat Vet's, not. If so their some REMF's. If they were 11B's it would have been worse. Is "Triangulation" the new word for "crossfire?"
A Dallas police source estimated to Fox News that at least 60 rounds were fired over a "large kill zone." The source added that the shooting would have required considerable planning
.........brb to finish this
they got the police in a classic ambush with the police in a kill box.
problem is we are getting conflicting reports on how many shooters there were.
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Sure, and next you'll tell us that soldiers are people too and not some living avatars of righteousness and purity.
Anyway...to steal a tweet from someone else: "I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this."
Depends on the situation.
As for the possible shooters being Combat Vet's, not. If so their some REMF's. If they were 11B's it would have been worse. Is "Triangulation" the new word for "crossfire?"
A Dallas police source estimated to Fox News that at least 60 rounds were fired over a "large kill zone." The source added that the shooting would have required considerable planning
.........brb to finish this
In the pic with the guy in uniform he does not have a blue fourragere so likely not 11 series.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
MrDwhitey wrote: Just because someone is a veteran doesn't mean they can't be a hateful murderer.
Sure, and next you'll tell us that soldiers are people too and not some living avatars of righteousness and purity.
Anyway...to steal a tweet from someone else: "I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this."
Depends on the situation.
As for the possible shooters being Combat Vet's, not. If so their some REMF's. If they were 11B's it would have been worse. Is "Triangulation" the new word for "crossfire?"
A Dallas police source estimated to Fox News that at least 60 rounds were fired over a "large kill zone." The source added that the shooting would have required considerable planning
.........brb to finish this
they got the police in a classic ambush with the police in a kill box.
The dead perp claimed to be a loner, but the Dallas cops have (I think) 4 suspects in custody we don't know much about. I read one report (sorry, no link handy) that those 4 are not cooperating.
Going to take time to get past 'initial reports' and start getting accurate info.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
The dead perp claimed to be a loner, but the Dallas cops have (I think) 4 suspects in custody we don't know much about. I read one report (sorry, no link handy) that those 4 are not cooperating.
Going to take time to get past 'initial reports' and start getting accurate info.
Thanks - that was my read on it so far. Any insight into this guy's background at all based on his uniformed photos? They seem a little ambiguous.
Anyone else getting sick of it was a peacful movement until 11 people got shot? Then closely followed by there is so much hate so I can understand, this is going to turn into a race war......
I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted. Obviously, If somebody starts shotting at a police officer, they have every right to shoot back, but pulling a gun should be a last resort.
This is nice, in theory. I abhor the militarization of the police. However, we do not live in a world where Andy Griffith type policing will work. The criminals here are often way too violent for that. There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing why police in the USA go for an approach of complete control over any situation. Anything less can often quickly result in the cop being killed. Then, on the other side, are the videos of police overreacting and causing harm and/or death to otherwise innocent people and not being held to account by the courts. This deepens the divide between the police and community and poisons a cooperative relationship leaving an adversarial one.
I was watching the news and a spokesperson for the Dallas police mentioned that their officers were trained in deescalation and that the Dallas department had the least number of shootings of any large city in America. Perhaps if that model spreads to other cities, we'll see less loss of innocent life, fewer riots, and a lessening of the hate that makes people act like assassins.
I was watching the news and a spokesperson for the Dallas police mentioned that their officers were trained in deescalation and that the Dallas department had the least number of shootings of any large city in America. Perhaps if that model spreads to other cities, we'll see less loss of innocent life, fewer riots, and a lessening of the hate that makes people act like assassins.
and yet it did not work out to well for officers in Dallas.
meanwhile our president is overseas speaking about unity in Europe while our own country is fracturing, and you would think he would be coming home, but he is not:
Yes, because it's hard to deescalate when someone is sniping at you, rather than the much more common interactions with people the Dallas police force seem to be doing well in.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5) Police to adopt a proportional force directive. i.e. lethal force is only used after all other methods are exhausted.
I don't see how this can happen in the US. If you're a cop and someone reaches for their belt, what are you going to do? I think there would need to be quite a long process of de-escalation and disarmament of the public, before police in the US would feel as safe as their counterparts in the UK. That doesn't seem very likely IMO.
Escalaltion of force is already written into most states' self defense and carry laws and is established protocol for police. Police just get a lot more leeway on it from the courts than an armed citizen would.
The terrible idea that cops have to adopt the attitude that they have to treat everyone like they're a threat in order to protect themselves is just another instance of bad training and practices that afflict a lot of police departments.
May I say Prestor Jon, you have made some excellent posts in this topic, and you get an exalt from me. I feel like there is something fundamental which we both agree on here, despite often manifesting it in different ways. I have found a whole new respect you.
Asterios wrote: for you to even suggest what you do shows your disrespect for this country and its Constitution.
Is this the part where you call me a communist and stick you fingers in your ears? Please spare me the wanton outrage, it honestly doesn't help the discussion, and wasn't provoked.
tell it to those innocent victims who are killed by intruders because they didn't have a gun
Were they really killed for no other reason than because they didn't have a gun? Or were there about a billion other factors at play too. What about the people who did have gun, and still got killed? Or the people who were killed because of their gun? What about the guy earlier this week who accidentally shot his 14 year old son in the head? How did "protect your family" work out for that guy?
Your appeal to fear and emotion is not rational, owning a gun might make you safer, but it does not necessarily make you safer. The real crux of my argument (which you seem to have missed), is not that owning a gun is "bad", my argument was that owning a gun is not a substitute for making society safer. Perhaps the family you mentioned would also have survived had they lived in a less violent society. Perhaps if people had focused on reducing crime rather than scaremongering about it, a lot more people might have survived, and a lot fewer turned to crime.
I don't see why my "perhaps" is any less good than yours.
waiting for the police to show up? tell that to the people of my town where the Police Chief went on the news and said they will not respond to home alarms unless the know someone is in danger
It's almost like you are making my points for me. Who needs cops at all when you've got your trusty six shooter, amiright?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/08 16:42:11
MrDwhitey wrote: Yes, because it's hard to deescalate when someone is sniping at you, rather than the much more common interactions with people the Dallas police force seem to be doing well in.
yes but my point is the dallas police were doing things right and this is what happened.
meanwhile one of the persons of interest is related here on what happened:
People can be affected negatively by events that don't happen right next to them.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
The dead perp claimed to be a loner, but the Dallas cops have (I think) 4 suspects in custody we don't know much about. I read one report (sorry, no link handy) that those 4 are not cooperating.
Going to take time to get past 'initial reports' and start getting accurate info.
Thanks - that was my read on it so far. Any insight into this guy's background at all based on his uniformed photos? They seem a little ambiguous.
Army Reservist so far that I gleaned. Also he was in the Reserves prior to 2010. Being he is wearing the black beret in duty uniform. We changed to "soft" caps beginning of 2011. Did not deployed. Can tell by his ribbons. National Defense ribbons and AIT ribbon
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Asterios wrote: for you to even suggest what you do shows your disrespect for this country and its Constitution.
Is this the part where you call me a communist and stick you fingers in your ears? Please spare me the wanton outrage, it honestly doesn't help the discussion, and wasn't provoked.
tell it to those innocent victims who are killed by intruders because they didn't have a gun
Were they really killed for no other reason than because they didn't have a gun? Or were there about a billion other factors at play too. What about the people who did have gun, and still got killed? Or the people who were killed because of their gun? What about the guy earlier this week who accidentally shot his 14 year old son in the head? How did "protect your family" work out for that guy?
Your appeal to fear and emotion is not rational, owning a gun might make you safer, but it does not necessarily make you safer. The real crux of my argument (which you seem to have missed), is not that owning a gun is "bad", my argument was that owning a gun is not a substitute for making society safer. Perhaps the family you mentioned would also have survived had they lived in a less violent society. Perhaps if people had focused on reducing crime rather than scaremongering about it, a lot more people might have survived, and a lot fewer turned to crime.
I don't see why my "perhaps" is as good as yours.
Smacks wrote: waiting for the police to show up? tell that to the people of my town where the Police Chief went on the news and said they will not respond to home alarms unless the know someone is in danger
It's almost like you are making my points for me. Who needs cops at all when you've got your trusty six shooter, amiright?
then tell me how would you make society better? you never answered that question? man is warlike by nature, we are not peaceful people and will fight one way or the other. so how do you stop our own nature?
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
OgreChubbs wrote: Anyone else getting sick of it was a peacful movement until 11 people got shot? Then closely followed by there is so much hate so I can understand, this is going to turn into a race war......
You're jumping the gun.
There isn't any proven link with BLM. At the moment for all we know the shooters are white supremacists angry with the police for protecting black people.
