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You can also immobilise a Dreadnought with a single shot rendering it worthless. This also happens as it walks through fences.

Anything in a Transport can. Move 6" disembark 6" and kill.

Generally you don't get complaints about the survivability of MC's outside the problem ones. You do get complaints about vehicle weakness.

I think the overall issue is the vehicle rules are garbage and certain problematic MCs need to be bashed in the face with a nerfbat until they are effective and worthwhile but no longer op. I honestly think a vehicle fix should come first, because that would let everyone know how much of a fix the problem units need.

pm713 wrote:
You can also immobilise a Dreadnought with a single shot rendering it worthless.

That really depends upon how you have the dreadnought configured. If you're dropping a heavy flamer/multi-melta dreadnought in via drop pod, then by the time it gets immobilized (of which, again, there is, at best, a 1/6 chance of happening, presupposing an unsaved penetrating hit), it's already done its job.

If you've made a shooty dreadnought, so what if it gets immobilized? It should still be within range to shoot.

And again, positioning is everything.

If you drop a walker such that you turn its rear AV to one of my lascannons, then that's on you, buddy.

This also happens as it walks through fences.

Then don't walk it through fences.

Anything in a Transport can. Move 6" disembark 6" and kill.

Have difficulty planning ahead a turn?

What is your win-loss ratio when it comes to chess?

Generally you don't get complaints about the survivability of MC's outside the problem ones. You do get complaints about vehicle weakness.

If things like grav, scatter bikes, the tau, etc. didn't exist, you'd hear a lot more complaints about average MC durability.

In fact, Martel complains about tyrranid MC durability all the time.

And when you think about it, something like a 6 wound tyrannocite for 75 points is pretty ridiculous.

At any rate, PM, this is what I'm hearing from the "vehicles are garbage" crowd:

"My vehicles have weaknesses! They aren't completely invulnerable!"

To which I answer:

"Yes. That's a good thing."

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You can also immobilise a Dreadnought with a single shot rendering it worthless.

That really depends upon how you have the dreadnought configured. If you're dropping a heavy flamer/multi-melta dreadnought in via dro pod, then by the time it gets immobilized, it's already done its job.

If you've made a shooty dreadnought, so what if it gets immobilized? It should still be within range to shoot.

This also happens as it walks through fences.

Then don't walk it through fences.

Anything in a Transport can. Move 6" disembark 6" and kill.

Have difficulty planning ahead a turn?

What is your win-loss ratio when it comes to chess?

Generally you don't get complaints about the survivability of MC's outside the problem ones. You do get complaints about vehicle weakness.

If things like grav, scatter bikes, the tau, etc. didn't exist, you'd hear a lot more complaints about average MC durability.

In fact, Martel complains about tyrranid MC durability all the time.

And when you think about it, something like a 6 wound tyrannocite for 75 points is pretty ridiculous.

Or my cc dreadnought gets stuck halfway to a combat which is embarassing.

Don't walk through terrain. Never thought of that. I'll take the long way around the whole board instead. It'll make a great Turn 5 charge!

Surprisingly I don't play chess as a hobby seeing as I don't enjoy it that much.
Assuming competent players you can have multiple transports near the dreadnought to do that idea plus you have the idea of people making mistakes.

Is he complaining about their durability or about his heavy weapons? With Martel I always bet it's his stuff that's an issue.

Remember me saying that there are some problems MC's? I can also get a Wraithlord that'll die pretty damn fast to decent anti tank for a lot of points.

I'm hearing "Blah, blah I'm right you're wrong here as well."

 Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
No, Dreadnoughts are not fine even if you remove Scatterbikes. They are easily shut down by common anti-tank weapons

Why is this a bad thing? Dreadnoughts are vehicles. They are supposed to be shut down by anti-tank weapons.

No one is asking for immortal units. The problem is how easy it is to do. Just a few Lascannons can make Dreadnoughts useless. Hell, with some not so extraordinary rolling a single Lascannon can render them totally worthless by stun locking them, removing their weapons or killing them outrhight.

Dreadnoughts can be stun-locked into making both their CCWs and guns completely worthless.

You have to get a result of exactly 4 to get that to happen. No more, no less.

 Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Why remove the opinion of Eldar players?

Because they have the same bias towards the question as Tau players do. Of course an Eldar player is never going to want a riptide or a storm surge to turn into a walker. The day that happens is the same day that wraithlords and wraithknights turn into walkers.

I couldn't care less if Riptides were Walkers. Hell, they would be even easier for me to take out. Starcannons, Haywire, Starshot Missiles, Bright Lances, Assured Destruction with Meltaguns, Pulse Lasers. And let's not forget how easy it is to spam Scatter Lasers and D weapons.

 Traditio wrote:
And in 5th edition, vehicles were commonly admitted to be OP because too durable for their points cost.

No, spammable transports with guns were often considered to be overpowered (correctly or not). Tanks, dreads, etc, were fine.

 Traditio wrote:
What can you think of besides deep-strikers, fast vehicles and bikes that can reliably get rear AV on a walker, assuming the person controlling that walker is even halfway decent?

IOW, "other than fast units that are designed to get a superior position and exploit it what can get into rear arc?". Could you please stop dodging questions by ruling out so many units that you can win by default?

 Traditio wrote:
Get some red solo cups. Less than 5 USD and you'll have all the LOS blocking terrain you'll need.

You do realize that some people enjoy the aesthetics of the game and only use proper terrain, right? I'd think that this would be a fact that you'd understand very well, given your previous comments about how it's the "spectacle" of the game that matters.

 insaniak wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Why are walkers rubbish?

Are they rubbish because of the predominance of high strength, low AP anti tank weapons?

No.

They are rubbish because of predominance of cheese, e.g., the predominance of high rate of fire, mid strength weapons.

Uh, no, they're rubbish because they can be killed with a single shot, which was bad enough, and then 6th Ed added in wounds without giving them a corresponding saving throw to balance it out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this before scat bikes and D-strength D weapons? In fact IIRC for the beginning of 6th edition, Eldar were using a 4th edition codex, and walkers were still rubbish.

 Peregrine wrote:


No, spammable transports with guns were often considered to be overpowered (correctly or not). Tanks, dreads, etc, were fine.

I want to drive this home. There were few complaints about Leman Russes, or Hammerheads, or Predators being overpowered. The main battle tanks and equivalents were largely considered acceptable. It was Razorback, Chimera, and Ghost Ark spam that made people ornery. Cheap, decently gunned, mobile platforms to shuttle around scoring troops reliably while doing respectable damage.

But, then again, you'd know this Traditio if you had a grasp of what good game design and balance is.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You can also immobilise a Dreadnought with a single shot rendering it worthless.

That really depends upon how you have the dreadnought configured. If you're dropping a heavy flamer/multi-melta dreadnought in via drop pod, then by the time it gets immobilized (of which, again, there is, at best, a 1/6 chance of happening, presupposing an unsaved penetrating hit), it's already done its job.

If you've made a shooty dreadnought, so what if it gets immobilized? It should still be within range to shoot.

And again, positioning is everything.

If you've made a shooty deadnought it can get immobilized (or stunned) and rooted in place, restricting its fire too 45* forward, and thus can be ignored by most units for the rest of the game. If it gets shaken or stunned it may as well not have shooty weapons; if it gets weapon destroyed it no longer has shooty weapons; and then of course it can get blown up. And if a single heavy flamer / melta deep striking has 'done its job'... I have no idea what kind of opponents you're facing but its been a long time since I've seen that be considered a threat.


All of these things MCs don't have to deal with. They fight at full effectiveness to their last wound with not even a 1/6 chance of being rendered useless; they have more wounds than a dread; and an armor or invulnerable save.

Generally you don't get complaints about the survivability of MC's outside the problem ones. You do get complaints about vehicle weakness.

If things like grav, scatter bikes, the tau, etc. didn't exist, you'd hear a lot more complaints about average MC durability.

In fact, Martel complains about tyrranid MC durability all the time.

What MC's are there in the game?
Daemon Princes.
Various Tyranid things.
Dreadknights.
Riptides, Ghostkeels and Stormsurges
Wraithlords and Wraithknights.

The 'not a problem' ones are the Tyranid ones that suffer from the same primary shortcoming as Dreads - combat MC's with 6" movement. T6 SV3 isn't terrible to deal with when you have 4 turns to do so. With shooting as powerful as it is, your durability is directly proportional to your ability to cross the table and get in to combat.



You're right that all balance is relative. But you seem to be choosing a completely arbitrary point to consider balanced, and judging from there. Why don't you say that Riptides are balanced and Dreads need to be bought up, rather than Dreads are balanced and Riptides need to be brought down?
Balance between two units also needs to be considered in comparison to everything else that is available in the game. Terminators seem overpowered compared to Boyz when the only weapon in consideration is a Slugga - but when Plasma guns and Ion Accelerators are considered then its a very different assessment. So if you want to consider that Dreads are balanced and Riptides need to be brought down, what you're really saying is EVERYTHING in the game needs to be brought down to whatever arbitrary level you decide. The thread title should be "Balancing the entire game", not "Balancing Riptides".

And you're right, it is difficult or impossible to balance the game one unit at a time when such huge power swings exist - when Dreads and Riptides, Assault marines and Grav Cents, Kroot and Scatterbikes all exist in the same game, its difficult to say what is the arbitrary "correct" level of balance. You might nerf riptides to the same level as dreads, but in doing so you take Tau out of contention everyone else who uses anything considered remotely 'good'. If you want to balance to that level.... you basically need to come up with an entirely redesigned game, because its impossible to assess how good a Riptide would be when we have no idea what kind of weaponry it would commonly face in this new game.



As for whether Riptides are 'balanced' in the current game... Riptides with proper marker support in a riptide wing are a force to be feared and can go toe-to-toe with the top lists from other factions. A single Riptide on its own with no markers is alright, and probably still the best choice for an Elites slot for Tau, but it's putting out equivalent firepower to units that cost significantly less. Its real asset is durability - the effectiveness of your guns is directly proportional to the amount of turns you get to fire them, and riptides can be confident to last well in to the game.
If you want to nerf riptides, the best bet would be
- a points increase or
- drop wounds by 1 or
- make its invulnerable save less attractive (make it take up a hardpoint? or novacharge only brings it to 3++?) or
- make it so you can't use the same Nova profile two turns in a row
and
- add some kind of penalty or tax to the riptide wing (or just get rid of it entirely)

 Traditio wrote:

If you've made a shooty dreadnought, so what if it gets immobilized? It should still be within range to shoot.

With a 45 degree fire arc, an immobilised dreadnought isn't shooting anything owned by a halfway competent opponent.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

At any rate, PM, this is what I'm hearing from the "vehicles are garbage" crowd:

"My vehicles have weaknesses! They aren't completely invulnerable!"

Then you're not unstanding what they're saying.

The issue isn't that Vehicles have weaknesses. They should. The issue is that Vehicles that are supposed to be durable and scary are instead glass cannons under the current rules.

Trasvi wrote:
<snip>
As for whether Riptides are 'balanced' in the current game... Riptides with proper marker support in a riptide wing are a force to be feared and can go toe-to-toe with the top lists from other factions. A single Riptide on its own with no markers is alright, and probably still the best choice for an Elites slot for Tau, but it's putting out equivalent firepower to units that cost significantly less. Its real asset is durability - the effectiveness of your guns is directly proportional to the amount of turns you get to fire them, and riptides can be confident to last well in to the game.
If you want to nerf riptides, the best bet would be
- a points increase or
- drop wounds by 1 or
- make its invulnerable save less attractive (make it take up a hardpoint? or novacharge only brings it to 3++?) or
- make it so you can't use the same Nova profile two turns in a row
and
- add some kind of penalty or tax to the riptide wing (or just get rid of it entirely)

First off, absolutely the Riptide Wing formation should die in every single fire, then the ashes should be dumped into Eta Carinae.

Second, this is pretty much what I've been saying for the whole blasted thread, belike: the entire point of the Riptide as a unit is to be durable, not to be ultra-killy. The problem stems from the combination of the following:

1) 72" gun - it can sit out of range of almost everything, needing only LOS.
2) Interceptor - It can shoot you before you're even really in play.
3) AP2 + Interceptor Markerlights + S8 - Power armor won't save you; Feel No Pain won't save you; cover probably won't save you. (The markerlights are, admittedly, a second unit.)
4) Don't need to nova-charge for that fire mode, don't really need to use the risky nova reactor at all when you have the IA.
5) When you do risk nova-charging, it's only for the shield (or maybe, maybe the jets to stay out of range).
6) And now you're in the corner, with T6/W5/2+/3++, out of range of almost everything, effectively immortal.
7) To add insult to injury, if you do somehow manage to get in melee with it, it still gets S6 AP2 attacks against you. And you might even be scared of it!

That's why my proposed nerfs do the following:

1) Knock the 72" gun down to 24". Now it has to get close, and Interceptor is a lot less scary.
2) Overcharge mode is now AP3 - though I'm rethinking this, and it should probably be AP4.
3) Shield nova-charge is gone.
4) It's Infantry - no more Smash, no more Fear. (I special-ruled MTC back in, because MTC makes sense on something like that.)

Where I goofed, I think:

1) Nova reactor isn't risky enough.
2) AP3 Overcharge mode is still a little too mean - should probably need to nova-charge if you want to delete MEQ squads.
3) Heavy Burst Cannon should probably just be Heavy 10 in both modes: don't need to nova to be somewhat effective, do need to nova to be scary by adding Rending and maybe Pinning.
4) Interceptor is still everywhere in the Tau book. There's too damn much of it. This isn't a Riptide-specific problem: Stormsurges are terrifying with it, and Broadsides can be obnoxious.
5) Maybe need to differentiate the main weapons a little more?
6) Maybe the nova-charged ion mode should be S10? Specifically a countermeasure for bike/wolf deathstars, or at least something to worry them a little, but is this too deadly to tanks and Daemon Princes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

<snip>

 Traditio wrote:

At any rate, PM, this is what I'm hearing from the "vehicles are garbage" crowd:

"My vehicles have weaknesses! They aren't completely invulnerable!"

Then you're not unstanding what they're saying.

The issue isn't that Vehicles have weaknesses. They should. The issue is that Vehicles that are supposed to be durable and scary are instead glass cannons under the current rules.

And this, about 3^^^3 times.

So Basically, let's strip Tau of any advantage they have in the game (range, and mid strength shooting) and leave them extremely vulnerable to what they can't do (close combat).

How about we nerf grav and remove AtsknF from Marines to make it even?

Its easy to see the hate Tau gets just because they are a Marine counter. More Marine players, more haters.

jade_angel wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
<snip>
As for whether Riptides are 'balanced' in the current game... Riptides with proper marker support in a riptide wing are a force to be feared and can go toe-to-toe with the top lists from other factions. A single Riptide on its own with no markers is alright, and probably still the best choice for an Elites slot for Tau, but it's putting out equivalent firepower to units that cost significantly less. Its real asset is durability - the effectiveness of your guns is directly proportional to the amount of turns you get to fire them, and riptides can be confident to last well in to the game.
If you want to nerf riptides, the best bet would be
- a points increase or
- drop wounds by 1 or
- make its invulnerable save less attractive (make it take up a hardpoint? or novacharge only brings it to 3++?) or
- make it so you can't use the same Nova profile two turns in a row
and
- add some kind of penalty or tax to the riptide wing (or just get rid of it entirely)

First off, absolutely the Riptide Wing formation should die in every single fire, then the ashes should be dumped into Eta Carinae.

Second, this is pretty much what I've been saying for the whole blasted thread, belike: the entire point of the Riptide as a unit is to be durable, not to be ultra-killy. The problem stems from the combination of the following:

1) 72" gun - it can sit out of range of almost everything, needing only LOS.
2) Interceptor - It can shoot you before you're even really in play.
3) AP2 + Interceptor Markerlights + S8 - Power armor won't save you; Feel No Pain won't save you; cover probably won't save you. (The markerlights are, admittedly, a second unit.)
4) Don't need to nova-charge for that fire mode, don't really need to use the risky nova reactor at all when you have the IA.
5) When you do risk nova-charging, it's only for the shield (or maybe, maybe the jets to stay out of range).
6) And now you're in the corner, with T6/W5/2+/3++, out of range of almost everything, effectively immortal.
7) To add insult to injury, if you do somehow manage to get in melee with it, it still gets S6 AP2 attacks against you. And you might even be scared of it!

That's why my proposed nerfs do the following:

1) Knock the 72" gun down to 24". Now it has to get close, and Interceptor is a lot less scary.
2) Overcharge mode is now AP3 - though I'm rethinking this, and it should probably be AP4.
3) Shield nova-charge is gone.
4) It's Infantry - no more Smash, no more Fear. (I special-ruled MTC back in, because MTC makes sense on something like that.)

Where I goofed, I think:

1) Nova reactor isn't risky enough.
2) AP3 Overcharge mode is still a little too mean - should probably need to nova-charge if you want to delete MEQ squads.
3) Heavy Burst Cannon should probably just be Heavy 10 in both modes: don't need to nova to be somewhat effective, do need to nova to be scary by adding Rending and maybe Pinning.
4) Interceptor is still everywhere in the Tau book. There's too damn much of it. This isn't a Riptide-specific problem: Stormsurges are terrifying with it, and Broadsides can be obnoxious.
5) Maybe need to differentiate the main weapons a little more?
6) Maybe the nova-charged ion mode should be S10? Specifically a countermeasure for bike/wolf deathstars, or at least something to worry them a little, but is this too deadly to tanks and Daemon Princes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

<snip>

 Traditio wrote:

At any rate, PM, this is what I'm hearing from the "vehicles are garbage" crowd:

"My vehicles have weaknesses! They aren't completely invulnerable!"

Then you're not unstanding what they're saying.

The issue isn't that Vehicles have weaknesses. They should. The issue is that Vehicles that are supposed to be durable and scary are instead glass cannons under the current rules.

And this, about 3^^^3 times.

Removing ATSKNF is too much. Get rid of the cc bit.

6) Maybe the nova-charged ion mode should be S10? Specifically a countermeasure for bike/wolf deathstars, or at least something to worry them a little, but is this too deadly to tanks and Daemon Princes?

When bike/wolf stars are charged up, Tau has no counter except jump around and try to stretch them out. Stormsurge already have a S10 template and bike/wolf stars already shrug it off like nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1) Nova reactor isn't risky enough.

LOL, yeah because Tau players never get angry about it.

Really, guys what you want is to ban the riptide. Essentially this is what you are driving at. Make it so crappy that no one will take it.

Um, no.

I play Tau, and I use Riptides - though most of the time, only one.

That might be what some people want, but it's not what I'm going for.

Read my initial post. Seriously. That's where the actual suggestion is. Folks like Traditio call that suggestion asininely OP, you call it so crappy that nobody would use it?

I don't want to ban the Riptide. If I wanted that, I'd have just feckin' said so, belike.

Take a look at my proposal, and tell me what you do and don't like about it. Bear in mind the major role disagreement that's cropped up throughout the thread, here - I don't blame you for not slogging through the whole thing. Some people think the Riptide is meant to be a long-range artillery piece that drops AP2 pie-plates from afar, and complain that it's too durable for something that does that. Others - and I'm in this camp - think it's meant to be a close-support fire magnet that soaks up a ton of fire so the short-range shooters (that is, XV8s, XV25s and XV9s) can do their jobs.

I think that if you build a suit that can do both, you end up with a unit that has the problems I enumerated above, and that draws a crapton of salt. One or the other is fine - but I think the Stormsurge is the backfield pie-plate-puker, and it's not the unit I'm addressing in this post.

ETA: Once the ion weapon no longer has 72" range and the 3++ shield option doesn't exist, possibly the nova reactor is fine and doesn't need to be any more risky.

3+ armour. I'd be happier with 3+ armour. Perhaps make the generator 4+ to activate.

pm713 wrote:
3+ armour. I'd be happier with 3+ armour. Perhaps make the generator 4+ to activate.

Me too. Really the Riptide never should have had a 2+ armour since it "should" be lighter to allow the Jet-pack to function. This is the whole reason Broadside do not have Jet-packs.
3+ armour, 4+ Nova, Ion Accelerator only 36" range (at 10pts to swap, instead of only 5). These 3 easy changes make the Riptide a good choice, without being an OP choice.

At that point, I might also incorporate Stims into the cost of the Riptide, thereby making it cost more and prevent min-maxing Riptides for Riptide-Wings. But that might be a mute point since lowering the save AND making the Nova harder might actually force players to buy the Stims every time anyway.

--

I read it all. Your suggestions while well meant completely nerf Tau competitively.

Sorry, I'm not giving an inch on this. There are many problems in the game. You can't isolate one unit and say thats it. Collectively MCs > Vehicles > Walkers. The true issue lies 1) MC rules versus Walkers 2) in the stat profile of Dreadnaughts not the riptide. Tell all your friends to buy the new 13/13/12 dreadnaught and see what happens to a Tau player when you drop pod in.

In a friendly game I would never bring my competitive build, but big tourneys you have to.

jade_angel wrote:
Um, no.

I play Tau, and I use Riptides - though most of the time, only one.

That might be what some people want, but it's not what I'm going for.

Read my initial post. Seriously. That's where the actual suggestion is. Folks like Traditio call that suggestion asininely OP, you call it so crappy that nobody would use it?

I don't want to ban the Riptide. If I wanted that, I'd have just feckin' said so, belike.

Take a look at my proposal, and tell me what you do and don't like about it. Bear in mind the major role disagreement that's cropped up throughout the thread, here - I don't blame you for not slogging through the whole thing. Some people think the Riptide is meant to be a long-range artillery piece that drops AP2 pie-plates from afar, and complain that it's too durable for something that does that. Others - and I'm in this camp - think it's meant to be a close-support fire magnet that soaks up a ton of fire so the short-range shooters (that is, XV8s, XV25s and XV9s) can do their jobs.

I think that if you build a suit that can do both, you end up with a unit that has the problems I enumerated above, and that draws a crapton of salt. One or the other is fine - but I think the Stormsurge is the backfield pie-plate-puker, and it's not the unit I'm addressing in this post.

ETA: Once the ion weapon no longer has 72" range and the 3++ shield option doesn't exist, possibly the nova reactor is fine and doesn't need to be any more risky.

What 13/13/12 Dreadnought do I have? Answer: None.

So even though we have identified a problem unit we can't attempt to fix it?

I play Tau, and I use Riptides - though most of the time, only one.

The same people that advocate the "NERFS" would bring 4 Runepriests , 3 Librarians in a Conclave, Ezekiel, Azrael, and Thunderwolves.

Marines
1) Turn off Marine USR if the unit has mixed marines
2) Remove AtsknF from the game or make them pass leadership to turn it on.
3) Make Grav 12" range
4) Keep grenades to one per CC

 thejughead wrote:

I play Tau, and I use Riptides - though most of the time, only one.

The same people that advocate the "NERFS" would bring 4 Runepriests , 3 Librarians in a Conclave, Ezekiel, Azrael, and Thunderwolves.

Marines
1) Turn off Marine USR if the unit has mixed marines
2) Remove AtsknF from the game or make them pass leadership to turn it on.
3) Make Grav 12" range
4) Keep grenades to one per CC

That's just plain false although I'm not sure why you'd complain about Azrael.

How is 2) meant to work?

pm713 wrote:
What 13/13/12 Dreadnought do I have? Answer: None.

So even though we have identified a problem unit we can't attempt to fix it?

The new FW Leviathan.

 thejughead wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What 13/13/12 Dreadnought do I have? Answer: None.

So even though we have identified a problem unit we can't attempt to fix it?

The new FW Leviathan.

You will of course buy me and everyone else the book for the rules seeing as we have to use it now apparently.

 thejughead wrote:
I read it all. Your suggestions while well meant completely nerf Tau competitively.

Sorry, I'm not giving an inch on this. There are many problems in the game. You can't isolate one unit and say thats it. Collectively MCs > Vehicles > Walkers. The true issue lies 1) MC rules versus Walkers 2) in the stat profile of Dreadnaughts not the riptide. Tell all your friends to buy the new 13/13/12 dreadnaught and see what happens to a Tau player when you drop pod in.

In a friendly game I would never bring my competitive build, but big tourneys you have to.


<snip>

Wait, it does? You're talking about the Jet Pack Infantry version, not the Walker version, correct? That was mostly throwing spitwads at the wall, trying to satisfy the unsatisfiable - I should have made that clearer.

And yes, you are absolutely correct that there are many things wrong with 40k. This thread was *not* intended to be the omnibus "everything wrong with 40k, fixed by nerfing one unit" thread. I started it out talking specifically about how to correct the imbalances specific to the Riptide, not every problem in the game. There've been a hell of a lot of derails since then - which is why the initial post talked about not wanting to go down the "it should be a walker" rabbit-hole, and I screwed up by even beginning to entertain that line of thought. As for the issues with vehicles, yeah, no kidding - that's why I said that walkers bite, and not, as Traditio asserted, because I just want to auto-win. (FFS, if I wanted to auto-win, we all know how Scatbike/Spider/Wraithknight builds work, and I've got the models for it... But I don't, because it's an asshat move in most games and kinda boring, besides!)

I'd be willing to entertain a discussion on buffing vehicles or even revamping the whole system, but elsewhere. It's not the topic of the current thread, derails aside.

Which part of the current Riptide is critical to competitive play, in your estimation? The 72" S8 AP2 Large Blast in an Elite slot (instead of LoW)? Or is it the T6/W5/Sv2+ part? I kept the latter, BTW, including the ability to buy FNP. The only thing I nerfed durability-wise is the nova-charged shield - my thinking is that the Ghostkeel is the suit you want, if you want to be able to mostly ignore heavy weapons outright, while the Riptide is the one you want to walk through a hail of bolter fire.

I could be persuaded that I've got the intended use cases wrong, and that Tau need both a long-ranged artillery suit (Riptide) and a short-range linebreaker suit (Ghostkeel) available in the Elite slot. Though in that case, I would contend that the Riptide is too durable and probably too fast for an artillery suit.

The rules are posted for free!

pm713 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What 13/13/12 Dreadnought do I have? Answer: None.

So even though we have identified a problem unit we can't attempt to fix it?

The new FW Leviathan.

You will of course buy me and everyone else the book for the rules seeing as we have to use it now apparently.

 thejughead wrote:
The rules are posted for free!

pm713 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What 13/13/12 Dreadnought do I have? Answer: None.

So even though we have identified a problem unit we can't attempt to fix it?

The new FW Leviathan.

You will of course buy me and everyone else the book for the rules seeing as we have to use it now apparently.

Well that has undermined my point completely.

pm713 wrote:
Well that has undermined my point completely.

LOL, the Leviathan's 4++ and this rule alone make it crazy good:

Severing Cut: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved wound from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 4+, the model suffers an additional D3 wounds which must be saved separately using the weapon’s pro le (note that these wounds do not themselves generate more additional wounds).

Dropping that into Tau lines would induce a panic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

Which part of the current Riptide is critical to competitive play, in your estimation? The 72" S8 AP2 Large Blast in an Elite slot (instead of LoW)? Or is it the T6/W5/Sv2+ part? I kept the latter, BTW, including the ability to buy FNP. The only thing I nerfed durability-wise is the nova-charged shield - my thinking is that the Ghostkeel is the suit you want, if you want to be able to mostly ignore heavy weapons outright, while the Riptide is the one you want to walk through a hail of bolter fire.

Its all about T6/W5/Sv2+ ! The template you see less of unless its Marines. The BurstCannon is always preferred for RoF.

 thejughead wrote:
<snip>

jade_angel wrote:

Which part of the current Riptide is critical to competitive play, in your estimation? The 72" S8 AP2 Large Blast in an Elite slot (instead of LoW)? Or is it the T6/W5/Sv2+ part? I kept the latter, BTW, including the ability to buy FNP. The only thing I nerfed durability-wise is the nova-charged shield - my thinking is that the Ghostkeel is the suit you want, if you want to be able to mostly ignore heavy weapons outright, while the Riptide is the one you want to walk through a hail of bolter fire.

Its all about T6/W5/Sv2+ ! The template you see less of unless its Marines. The BurstCannon is always preferred for RoF.

Ok, that's what I kept, and I actually buffed the HBC. (Heavy 10/Heavy 15 now instead of 8/12, and lost Gets Hot when nova-charged). I did charge 10 points for the SMS, simply because of how much salt that draws - and because most people I know of are probably using the fusion blaster anyway, because it's a nice reserve capability.

Again, ignore the relatively stupid walker suggestion I made - that was to make a point, but the point was missed. The initial post's Jet Pack Infantry version is the fully serious suggestion.

My hope is this: All (non super heavy) Vehicles get 3+ armor in the next iteration of the rules. That will mitigate the saltiness in the OP post.

A single unit might be the cause of Marine players tears, but its not the pariah of the game.