Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Peregrine wrote:This is not true at all. If I've decided that Riptides are the benchmark in creating new units then the fact that some 3rd edition leftovers don't compete well means that they need to be buffed up to Riptide level. The only way you can say that Riptides are overpowered is if you assume that the designers are using something else as the benchmark, and you don't know that.

I disagree with this. Once again, "balanced" is relative (and note that "relative" doesn't mean "subjective"; balance implies a relationship between at least two things; it signifies proportionate equality).

In fact, this is ultimately what allows you to engage in your little sophistic display. Consider:

"Mountains are very tall."
"No, YOU'RE just very short."

Short and tall are relative terms. A is short in relationship to some B, B being taller than A, which, in turn, is shorter than B.

Ditto for balance. What GW considers the "benchmark" is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not something is OP or balanced or under-powered. What matters is how it compares to other things in the game. Whether you want to say that Riptides are OP or everything else is underpowered, it all comes out to the same thing: Riptides are an outlier in terms of their points efficiency/in-game effectiveness.

Yes, we all know that you assume that everyone plays (or should play) an army just like yours. This is part of the problem.

I've literally said nothing of the sort. All that I've said is that if you remove the outliers, you end up with a much more balanced game. Of course, you'll disagree with me all day long, since you have a vested interest in so doing (remind me again, Peregrine, what was that quote: "Just take the most powerful stuff, paint it well and make up the fluff accordingly?" Is that how the quote went? Am I remembering correctly?).

But it's hardly disputable.

 Traditio wrote:

Also, this isn't just my opinion. If I made a public opinion poll right now, I can guarantee you that at least 50 percent of voters would agree that riptides are unfair.

Don't use a specific unit, which I'm taking because I enjoy the aesthetic, the long-range synergism, and their status as a heavy-hitter in lore. In the FE, they are unique in their use with Earth Caste members, something the Tau would typically never consider what with the caste system taking precedence. They are a cool and fun unit.

That said, it's not so powerful that you should never take one in a 1500 point game. Is taking on in a 500 point game a mean thing to do? A 1000 point game, even? Yeah, definitely. But by 1500 you should have answers.

Strong units aren't inherently unfair. A column of Hammerheads is strong, but it's never considered unfair. Similarly, many units can be situationally strong.

I can understand limiting certain units to certain point costs, but at a certain level every army needs to have an equivalent or an answer to the game's powerful units.

 Traditio wrote:
Whether you want to say that Riptides are OP or everything else is underpowered, it all comes out to the same thing: Riptides are an outlier in terms of their points efficiency/in-game effectiveness.

That depends on whether you look at the total list of units in the game (including a lot of older-edition relics that nobody uses anymore), or which units are most popular. If most people are playing Riptides/decurions/etc then the outlier is the weaker stuff.

I've literally said nothing of the sort.

You have, however, very clearly implied it. Your core premise here is that lists like yours are the default and the player with the more powerful list is an outlier and has an obligation to balance the game. If your list is not typical then perhaps the opposite is true: YOU are the balance outlier, and YOU have the obligation to fix your list so that the game is fair.

All that I've said is that if you remove the outliers, you end up with a much more balanced game.

It's also more balanced if you just play with Riptides and things that can compete with Riptides. Perhaps you should try doing this, it will make the game a lot fairer for everyone.

Of course, you'll disagree with me all day long, since you have a vested interest in so doing (remind me again, Peregrine, what was that quote: "Just take the most powerful stuff, paint it well and make up the fluff accordingly?" Is that how the quote went? Am I remembering correctly?)

You do realize that I was playing devil's advocate there, right? And that my own lists are not even closer to top-tier in power level, making your "vested interest" rather laughably wrong?

(Of course you do, because we've had this conversation already. But you'll keep dishonestly posting that quote on the assumption that people reading it won't know the context.)

Ne_Streets wrote:Don't use a specific unit, which I'm taking because I enjoy the aesthetic

You like the aesthetic and the lore? Great. I'm sure it would look great in a display case.

May I recommend getting a display case for that riptide where you can keep it safe and sound under lock and key? And by "key," I mean "throw away the key."

the long-range synergism

In other words, an in-game advantage which is not duly accounted for by their points cost.

Another reason you shouldn't run one if you want a fair fight.

and their status as a heavy-hitter in lore. In the FE, they are unique in their use with Earth Caste members, something the Tau would typically never consider what with the caste system taking precedence. They are a cool and fun unit.

Then read more novels about the Tau. And really admire that Riptide...in your display case...the key to which you will have flushed down your toilet.

That said, it's not so powerful that you should never take one in a 1500 point game.

At ANY points limit, a single riptide is unfair. Again, that puts you at a de facto points advantage over me.

Strong units aren't inherently unfair.

By "strong units," do you understand "a unit which has advantages which are disproportionate to its points cost"?

If you do, then please explain to me how it's not unfair for a unit to have advantages which are disproportionate to its points cost.

I'll be waiting for that one.

Similarly, many units can be situationally strong.

The key word is "situationally."

Riptides aren't situationally strong.

Each one is a steaming pile of OP bull gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:That depends on whether you look at the total list of units in the game

This is what I meant.

In my local group its kinda the inverse.
I have been almost entirely playing DE and Harlequins, and not super optimized for either, and my opponents are SM, Eldar, CSM. The SM and Eldar players generally bring absolutely weak lists, as in they've brought foot slogging infantry with no long range support before.
They aren't fun for me, or for them when I roll over their army with minimal casualties with my Venoms or Troupes.
So far, the only fun games where when I made the weakest list I could with my models, and kinda wasted my first couple turns so that it could be a challenge later on.

Yes there is a huge imbalance between codex's, but you can still make terrible lists with any codex, and those aren't fun unless you're against an equally weak list

 Traditio wrote:

Another reason you shouldn't run one if you want a fair fight.

You probably shouldn't play at a higher point level if you can't deal with a single Riptide. There's plenty of things more powerful than a Riptide, and if you can't deal with even that then it's you who'll have trouble finding games.

I mean, on paper, AP2 stuff should give it fits, even more so if it fails its NOVA or doesn't take Stims. It's not a god unit. It could be a Wraithknight, another model you should be prepared to deal with.

Ne_Streets wrote:You probably shouldn't play at a higher point level if you can't deal with a single Riptide.

There's a difference between "being able to deal with X" and "X being fair."

The question is whether riptides are fair, and the answer is clearly "no."

There's plenty of things more powerful than a Riptide

So what? The fact that there are things which are more OP than a riptide doesn't make the riptide less OP. It makes those other things more OP than a riptide.

There's no difficulty in this.

and if you can't deal with even that then it's you who'll have trouble finding games.

I'd prefer to have no game than to game against WAAC TFGs (whether they run scatter bikes, riptides, storm surges, or even scout bikes, for that matter). Just saying.

I mean, on paper, AP2 stuff should give it fits

Is a riptide really afraid of a lascannon?

Can you even say that with a straight face?

As I said before, you have two options:

1. You can either run a riptide

or

2. You can play fair.

Ultimately, the choice is yours, but you can't have it both ways.

 Traditio wrote:


Is a riptide really afraid of a lascannon?

To be fair, nothing is really afraid of a lascannon.
Either you're a single cheap model that isn't very important, and soak up that single shot, or you have an invul save, or a cover save and ignore it.

Riptides are strong, but unless you're running them cheesily (stimms for FNP and passing every nova charge,. or fighting an extremely weak list that refuses to change or adapt, they're far from unkillable. And just because someone brings one does not make their list an auto win unless all you do is avoid cover like the plague and bunch up like penguins huddling for warmth.

The onus is on both players. Neither player should expect the other to come completely down to their level. If one runs a riptide, it's not unreasonable to expect the other player to be able to deal with it. Otherwise, why can't both players put stupid restrictions on each other? I.E. "I don't like riptides." "Ok, I don't like rhinos or razorbacks." (obvious exception would be bringing a riptide/WK/etc to a game under ~750-1000pts)

To be fair, nothing is really afraid of a lascannon.
Either you're a single cheap model that isn't very important, and soak up that single shot, or you have an invul save, or a cover save and ignore it.

In non-competitive games, lascannons can put in work, especially with imperial fist chapter tactics.

 Traditio wrote:
You like the aesthetic and the lore? Great. I'm sure it would look great in a display case.

May I recommend getting a display case for that riptide where you can keep it safe and sound under lock and key? And by "key," I mean "throw away the key."

Yeah, how dare anyone remember that 40k is a game, not just a modeling hobby, and want to use the models they've bought and painted.

Again, that puts you at a de facto points advantage over me.

So stop putting yourself at a disadvantage. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take units that can't compete with Riptides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
Is a riptide really afraid of a lascannon?

No, but why are we talking about the irrelevant example of a single lascannon? Your zero-point Rhino doesn't exactly fear a lascannon either, and I don't think you want to go down the path of establishing that your Rhino is overpowered.

As I said before, you have two options:

1. You can either run a riptide

or

2. You can play fair.

Ultimately, the choice is yours, but you can't have it both ways.

As I said before, you have two options:

1. You can either run a list that can't compete with a Riptide

or

2. You can play fair.

Ultimately, the choice is yours, but you can't have it both ways.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Riptides are strong, but unless you're running them cheesily (stimms for FNP and passing every nova charge,. or fighting an extremely weak list that refuses to change or adapt, they're far from unkillable.

Not unkillable =/= not OP.

If x has a greater in-game advantage than is reflected by its points cost, then it's OP or undercosted.

Period.

At 180 points, you get a T6 jump monstrous creature with FIVE WOUNDS, a 2+ armor save and 5+ invuln save with a ridiculous amount of fire power. For a minimal points increase, you can give it feel no pain and a 72 inch range gun.

I stand by my assertions:

No riptides. Not even one.

Bring all the crisis suits, kroot, fire warriors, vehicles, etc., you want.

But not a single anime fan gundam wannabe.

The onus is on both players. Neither player should expect the other to come completely down to their level. If one runs a riptide, it's not unreasonable to expect the other player to be able to deal with it. Otherwise, why can't both players put stupid restrictions on each other? I.E. "I don't like riptides." "Ok, I don't like rhinos or razorbacks." (obvious exception would be bringing a riptide/WK/etc to a game under ~750-1000pts)

Razorbacks and rhinos are not publicly recognized as being OP, unless they are taken for free in a battle company formation (at which point I'll admit that everyone should just stick to CADs if they want to play fair).

Riptides are publicly recognized as being OP. Therefore, they should not be used at any points level.

Leave them at home. In your display case. With the key to said display case safely hidden under several layers of sewage, deep, deep below the ground.

 Traditio wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Riptides are strong, but unless you're running them cheesily (stimms for FNP and passing every nova charge,. or fighting an extremely weak list that refuses to change or adapt, they're far from unkillable.

Not unkillable =/= not OP.

If x has a greater in-game advantage than is reflected by its points cost, then it's OP or undercosted.

Period.

At 180 points, you get a T6 jump monstrous creature with FIVE WOUNDS, a 2+ armor save and 5+ invuln save with a ridiculous amount of fire power. For a minimal points increase, you can give it feel no pain and a 72 inch range gun.

I stand by my assertions:

No riptides. Not even one.

Bring all the crisis suits, kroot, fire warriors, vehicles, etc., you want.

But not a single anime fan gundam wannabe.

The onus is on both players. Neither player should expect the other to come completely down to their level. If one runs a riptide, it's not unreasonable to expect the other player to be able to deal with it. Otherwise, why can't both players put stupid restrictions on each other? I.E. "I don't like riptides." "Ok, I don't like rhinos or razorbacks." (obvious exception would be bringing a riptide/WK/etc to a game under ~750-1000pts)

Razorbacks and rhinos are not publicly recognized as being OP, unless they are taken for free in a battle company formation.

Riptides are publicly recognized as being OP. Therefore, they should not be used at any points level.

Leave them at home. In your display case. With the key to said display case safely hidden under several layers of sewage, deep, deep below the ground.

See, now I have to ask when the riptides ever did a "bad touch" to one of your marines.

But really, if you can't deal with ONE riptide in a 1500pt game, I highly doubt you could deal with the broadsides/crisis suits I'd bring instead.

As for the rhinos/razorbacks, it was more of an example of stupid restrictions that are clearly due to one player being unwilling to change or try something different to deal with a problem they have.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I've set up against another player only to know I was going to lose before the first die was cast. That's not fun. Every little victory I had that game was cause for celebration though.

^This. The very fact that in many cases the outcome is decided before the game even begins just goes to show how terrible the rules are atm. Sure it will always be possible to make lists that are not ideal and inferior but when there is such a power disparity between top tier codex's and the rest of the codex's in most cases it doesn't matter what you bring. You are doomed before deployment.

I've been preaching this for months but 8th edition will not solve anything. Unless they plan to remove point values entirely. While many issues do exist within the rulebook, the major issue in 40k right now is codex balance. Point costs are all over the place. You can have 2 different armies with very similar units, with very similar functions, with nearly the same effectiveness differ in point value by as much as 50%+. As long as disparities like this exist there is no hope for balance. Formations solve nothing. If anything they only further dumb down the game & remove one of the only remaining fun elements left in the game which is list building.

Wolfblade wrote:See, now I have to ask when the riptides ever did a "bad touch" to one of your marines.

But really, if you can't deal with ONE riptide in a 1500pt game, I highly doubt you could deal with the broadsides/crisis suits I'd bring instead.

As for the rhinos/razorbacks, it was more of an example of stupid restrictions that are clearly due to one player being unwilling to change or try something different to deal with a problem they have.

Again, I'm making a very simple point:

If you wish to play fair, then you should not bring OP bull gak. Not even one. Not even in a 10,000 point apocalypse game.

If you want to determine what is OP bull gak, consult the internet. If people are constantly complaining that the thing in question has a set of rules advantages which are not adequately reflected by its points cost, or else, is otherwise "OP" or "competitive" or "very strong," then you can bet your bottom dollar that the thing in question is probably OP bull gak.

Riptides fall under this category.

Wraith knights fall under this category.

White scars bikes fall under this category.

Scatter bikes fall under this category.

Razorbacks and rhinos do not fall under this category.

 Traditio wrote:
Again, I'm making a very simple point:

If you wish to play fair, then you should not bring OP bull gak. Not even one. Not even in a 10,000 point apocalypse game.

Again, I'm making a very simple point:

If you wish to play fair, then you should not bring underpowered bull gak that can't compete with Riptides. Not even one. Not even in a 10,000 point apocalypse game.

If you want to determine what is OP bull gak, consult the internet.

Yes, because we all know that the loudest complainers on the internet are usually right...

 Traditio wrote:
If you want to determine what is OP bull gak, consult the internet. If people are constantly complaining that the thing in question has a set of rules advantages which are not adequately reflected by its points cost, or else, is otherwise "OP" or "competitive" or "very strong," then you can bet your bottom dollar that the thing in question is probably OP bull gak.

I don't know what you think about other games, particularly video games, but Overwatch had a bit of an uproar concerning Bastion that the more competitive people quickly put to rest. The point here is that, even in the face of overwhelming public opinion, the truth shines through and opinion remains just that. The players who are willing to field models that deal with Riptides will field them against Riptides, and all is balanced.

I can guarantee I can make a case for the Rhino being OP. I would be horribly and terribly wrong, but I could do it.

"Why aren't my Fire Warriors doing any damage to his squad of Rhinos?! I have a Cadre Fireblade, I'm at half range, and I've used fire invocation to boost shots! Shouldn't the other player consider my weak army before bringing terribly OP stuff like a Rhino?"

Force it to make a leadership roll. Force it to deal with things like invisibility, constant cover saves to deplete markerlights, and high-AP weaponry. As a newcomer it really looks like you are stuck in ages past.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:See, now I have to ask when the riptides ever did a "bad touch" to one of your marines.

But really, if you can't deal with ONE riptide in a 1500pt game, I highly doubt you could deal with the broadsides/crisis suits I'd bring instead.

As for the rhinos/razorbacks, it was more of an example of stupid restrictions that are clearly due to one player being unwilling to change or try something different to deal with a problem they have.

Again, I'm making a very simple point:

If you wish to play fair, then you should not bring OP bull gak. Not even one. Not even in a 10,000 point apocalypse game.

If you want to determine what is OP bull gak, consult the internet. If people are constantly complaining that the thing in question has a set of rules advantages which are not adequately reflected by its points cost, or else, is otherwise "OP" or "competitive" or "very strong," then you can bet your bottom dollar that the thing in question is probably OP bull gak.

Riptides fall under this category.

Wraith knights fall under this category.

White scars bikes fall under this category.

Scatter bikes fall under this category.

Razorbacks and rhinos also fall under this category.

Fixed for you.

Did you know that there is a reason that Eldar, Tau AND Space Marines are regarded the best three armies in the meta? I wonder why that could be?
It surely wouldn't have anything to do with the:
Grav-guns (which kill Riptides well enough, and should be classed as the de-facto MC killing weapons instead of the outdated lascannon)

Free Transports

Accurate Deep Strike potential (to get that grav in the right place)

Ready access to Bikes (with sweet sweet grav)

A powerful psychic formation

One of the best beatstick HQ options

Immunity to practically an entire section of the rules (Morale)

I mean, free tanks are so over powered. I know you like them, but if you REALLY liked them, you'd put them in a cabinet and never use them. Don't know about you, but I love using my £25 Razorback as a paperweight instead of actually using the model for it's intended purpose and playing a game with it.
If you ever asked me to practically throw away a unit because of your ineptitude to deal with it (and trust me - it can be dealt with), I would demand you refund me for it. Seems fair, no?

If you cannot kill a Riptide, or change your list to deal with one, at the 10k points level, how on earth would you ever kill a Knight? Or a Baneblade? Or a Warhound Titan? Or even a Tau'nar. Riptides suck at lower points, but at the 1500 level, whilst they will be the centerpoint of the Tau army, they are killable.

Stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and then just seal the hole up with cement when you can't manage.

Ne_Streets wrote:I don't know what you think about other games, particularly video games, but Overwatch had a bit of an uproar concerning Bastion that the more competitive people quickly put to rest. The point here is that, even in the face of overwhelming public opinion, the truth shines through and opinion remains just that. The players who are willing to field models that deal with Riptides will field them against Riptides, and all is balanced.

1. Play-testing. Yes, right when a thing is released, it's easy to cry "OP!" or "UNFAIR!" However, this does not usually survive in long-term public consensus. If a thing genuinely is not OP, then there will be initial cries of "OP!" which will later die down as people realize that what looked OP at first isn't actually OP in practice.

In practice, Riptides have proven to be as OP in practice as they are on paper. Thus the fact that public opinion has prevailed, even in the long term, that riptides are OP. Again, I could easily make that public opinion poll if you want, and I guarantee at least a 50% vote that riptides are, in fact, OP.

Look, NE_Streets, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't both insist that riptides are not OP, and yet still maintain that you NEED a riptide for a Tau army to function in a competitive setting.

The two claims are necessarily inconsistent.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to be competitive? Or do you want to play fair? If you want to be competitive, then you need 3 riptides for the riptide wing. If you want to play fair, then don't use riptides. It's really that simple.

2. I shouldn't have to list tailor specifically to deal with your riptide to deal with your riptide.

3. Please explain to me how I can, using the SM codex, reliably kill a riptide:

1. Without the use of grav, librarians or drop pods
2. Using 180 points worth of models or fewer (or however much your riptide costs)
3. While taking no more than 180 points worth of casualties in the process (or however much your riptide costs)

I can guarantee I can make a case for the Rhino being OP. I would be horribly and terribly wrong, but I could do it.

It wouldn't be corroborated by play-testing or public consensus.

"Why aren't my Fire Warriors doing no damage to his squad of Rhinos?!

Fire warriors glance rhinos on 6s.

Force it to make a leadership roll.

How?

Force it to deal with things like invisibility

IoW: "USE OP GAK OF YOUR OWN!"

Ex hypothesi, we want to have a fair fight and not use OP gak.

constant cover saves to deplete markerlights

???

I'm not even sure what you mean by this.

and high-AP weaponry

I assume you mean "low AP weaponry," i.e., AP 1 or 2.

Again, I ask:

Is your riptide really afraid of my lascannons, plasma guns and plasma cannons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Fixed for you.

They don't. Free rhinos and razorbacks fall under that category when you take a battle company, but if you pay the 35 points for a rhino or the 55 points for a razorback, nobody considers them OP. Consider the fact that they generally weren't spammed in 6th edition.

Did you know that there is a reason that Eldar, Tau AND Space Marines are regarded the best three armies in the meta? I wonder why that could be?
It surely wouldn't have anything to do with the:
Grav-guns (which kill Riptides well enough, and should be classed as the de-facto MC killing weapons instead of the outdated lascannon)

Free Transports

Accurate Deep Strike potential (to get that grav in the right place)

Ready access to Bikes (with sweet sweet grav)

A powerful psychic formation

One of the best beatstick HQ options

I agree. All of those things are OP. That doesn't make the riptide less OP.

Immunity to practically an entire section of the rules (Morale)

That's really not accurate. ATSKNF isn't the same thing as fearless. My marines run off the table often enough. I'd much prefer fearless.

I mean, free tanks are so over powered. I know you like them, but if you REALLY liked them, you'd put them in a cabinet and never use them. Don't know about you, but I love using my £25 Razorback as a paperweight instead of actually using the model for it's intended purpose and playing a game with it.

Feth it. At this point, I'm willing to admit it. Free tanks are OP. Pretty much all of the formations are OP. We need to go back to CADs. Enough with formations. Enough with allied detachments. Enough with unbound. CAD UBER ALLES!

 Traditio wrote:
Look, NE_Streets, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't both insist that riptides are not OP, and yet still maintain that you NEED a riptide for a Tau army to function in a competitive setting.

The two claims are necessarily inconsistent.

How so? You are saying that like it's self-evident. Like it's obvious and clear. That, and I never said I needed it to be competitive.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to be competitive? Or do you want to play fair? If you want to be competitive, then you need 3 riptides for the riptide wing. If you want to play fair, then don't use riptides. It's really that simple.

You can do both. This is where your flawed logic really comes through. You can have a competitive, fair list. It's very possible. Unless you're talking about tournament play as the standard for competitive, fair, competitive lists really ought to be the standard (assuming they aren't, which they probably are).

2. I shouldn't have to list tailor specifically to deal with your riptide to deal with your riptide.

3. Please explain to me how I can, using the SM codex, reliably kill a riptide:

1. Without the use of grav, librarians or drop pods
2. Using 180 points worth of models or fewer (or however much your riptide costs)
3. While taking no more than 180 points worth of casualties in the process (or however much your riptide costs)

Why not just, I don't know, take grav, librarians, and drop pods? It's not possible to provide a list that costs exactly the same amount of points as a Riptide and is exactly as effective. Not because the Riptide is that broken, but because it's a flawed premise. Terrain, game type, and your opponent all tie into everything to the degree that being so specific is meaningless.

How?

I hear Psychic Scream works. If it brings drones, that works too.

IoW: "USE OP GAK OF YOUR OWN!"

That's just... playing fair. Just use what's at your disposal.

I assume you mean "low AP weaponry," i.e., AP 1 or 2.

Yeah, I did. Still new.

Again, I ask:

Is your riptide really afraid of my lascannons, plasma guns and plasma cannons?

It doesn't particularly want to take hits from plasma cannons or grav weaponry. Just bring that instead of whining that the opponent is being unfair. It's not going to hurt anything, promise.

I agree. All of those things are OP. That doesn't make the riptide less OP.

If the list of things you consider OP becomes big enough, you've admitted you're wrong. When enough things are available on the same power level as a Riptide, it's no longer broken but merely very good.

 Traditio wrote:

Ne_Streets wrote:I don't know what you think about other games, particularly video games, but Overwatch had a bit of an uproar concerning Bastion that the more competitive people quickly put to rest. The point here is that, even in the face of overwhelming public opinion, the truth shines through and opinion remains just that. The players who are willing to field models that deal with Riptides will field them against Riptides, and all is balanced.

1. Play-testing. Yes, right when a thing is released, it's easy to cry "OP!" or "UNFAIR!" However, this does not usually survive in long-term public consensus. If a thing genuinely is not OP, then there will be initial cries of "OP!" which will later die down as people realize that what looked OP at first isn't actually OP in practice.

In practice, Riptides have proven to be as OP in practice as they are on paper. Thus the fact that public opinion has prevailed, even in the long term, that riptides are OP. Again, I could easily make that public opinion poll if you want, and I guarantee at least a 50% vote that riptides are, in fact, OP.

Look, NE_Streets, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't both insist that riptides are not OP, and yet still maintain that you NEED a riptide for a Tau army to function in a competitive setting.

The two claims are necessarily inconsistent.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to be competitive? Or do you want to play fair? If you want to be competitive, then you need 3 riptides for the riptide wing. If you want to play fair, then don't use riptides. It's really that simple.

OR
Take an amount of Riptides proportional to the game size. A single Riptide per 1500 or 2000 points shouldn't give a competent list a complete smackdown. A single Riptide doesn't break a game. Putting a Riptide where is doesn't belong is.
I class my Riptide playing opponents as fair. And I think I'd rather play them any day than put up with a person telling me what I can and can't use because it doesn't fit their arbitrary rules of "fair".
The rules say I can take a Riptide. I will take my Riptide.

2. I shouldn't have to list tailor specifically to deal with your riptide to deal with your riptide.

I shouldn't have to list tailor to your sub-par list either.

3. Please explain to me how I can, using the SM codex, reliably kill a riptide:

1. Without the use of grav, librarians or drop pods
2. Using 180 points worth of models or fewer (or however much your riptide costs)
3. While taking no more than 180 points worth of casualties in the process (or however much your riptide costs)

Do the same for me with a Rhino. Any single UNIT in Codex Space Marines that costs 35 points or under, and can reliably kill it. No grav, psychic powers, or melta (seeing as we're banning certain equipment)

As for your example, by banning the use of certain things, you're effectively admitting that you won't use the right tools to do the job. It's like me telling you to kill a Land Raider, but you can't use anything that would actually have a chance of killing it. Thus, unfair premise.

My answer would be to ally in Guardsmen (because allying is a thing I can use) and drown it in Conscripts. They won't kill it, but the Riptide is rendered useless until the game ends.

Force it to make a leadership roll.

How?

Psychic shriek, kill any attached Drones, Fear tests.

Force it to deal with things like invisibility

IoW: "USE OP GAK OF YOUR OW
Ex hypothesi, we want to have a fair fight and not use OP gak.

IOW: "I won't use the actual resources given to me because I have an outdated view on the game and system and everyone else must accommodate my awkwardness."
We want a fair fight, and you enter it with all limbs tied behind your back.

Again, I ask:

Is your riptide really afraid of my lascannons, plasma guns and plasma cannons?

Nothing is afraid of lascannons and plasma cannons.

Instead, use something that actually WILL get results - grav.
Otherwise, what's to stop me saying "Is that Rhino really afraid of my bolters and lasguns?"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nothing is afraid of lascannons and plasma cannons.

I am. My IG and CSM armies regularly get tabled by the end of turn 3 because of them. After tons of monetary investment, and waaaayy too many games, I have been unable to find anything in those codexes that helps me win a game.

I'm not even joking.

So does that mean lascannons and plasmacannons are op? HELL YES. I say we ban them.

NE_STREETS:

You've basically admitted my point. Which doesn't surprise me. You're new, and I'm much less new. The only real ways of effectively dealing with a riptide, in the SM codex, are:

A. Grav

and

B. Librarians (but even here, they likely won't do it on their own; they're only effective at killing riptides when used as a force multiplier).

Though even here, psychic shriek might not be as effective as you might think. Riptides are LD 9. The average damage on a shriek against a riptide, not taking into account invulns or FNP, is 1 wound.

When we take into account invulns and FNP, the number of wounds is even less.

And psychic shriek is 18 inch range. Even if I brought a librarius conclave and deepstruck them via drop pod, I can pretty much gaurantee that, not only would they not kill that riptide, but that, in the following player turn, there would be dead librarians. Even if I brought AHRIMAN HIMSELF, not only would your riptide not die to the awesome psychic shriek spam, but I would have a dead Ahriman on my hands (to the tune of 230 points (or more, depending on what I put with him).

And then consider how much it would cost to take as many librarians as would be required to kill a riptide vs. how many points a riptide costs.

The ONLY way to kill a riptide is 1. teleporting grav centurions or 2. drop-pod grav cannons (and at that point, points-wise, I find myself asking: "Was it even worth it?").

Unless I take one of those two very specific things, your riptide is going to be able to jump around and shoot things with complete impunity.

For only 180 points. 220 if you pay for the upgrades.

Sure, in principle, lascannons and plasma weaponry might be able to deal with your riptide. But when you take into account range, feel no pain and invulns, it's not a very effective solution.

Literally only grav cannons provide an answer to your riptide. Out of an entire codex of options, I have literally one against your riptide.

Yes. That's the very definition of OP bull gak.

But as I said, if you want to play with OP bull gak, that's your prerogative.

Just don't expect people like me to play against you.

 Traditio wrote:
Literally only grav cannons provide an answer to your riptide. Out of an entire codex of options, I have literally one against your riptide.

Yes. That's the very definition of OP bull gak.

No, it's the definition of "if you want to kill MCs then you take your codex's anti-MC weapon". In this case that means grav. If you refuse to take grav then you have only yourself to blame for making the game unfair, and you should apologize to your opponent then change your list to a fairer one (with grav).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Literally only grav cannons provide an answer to your riptide. Out of an entire codex of options, I have literally one against your riptide.

Yes. That's the very definition of OP bull gak.

No, it's the definition of "if you want to kill MCs then you take your codex's anti-MC weapon". In this case that means grav. If you refuse to take grav then you have only yourself to blame for making the game unfair, and you should apologize to your opponent then change your list to a fairer one (with grav).

Peregrine:

When were MCs introduced into the game?

When were grav weapons introduced?

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Literally only grav cannons provide an answer to your riptide. Out of an entire codex of options, I have literally one against your riptide.

Yes. That's the very definition of OP bull gak.

No, it's the definition of "if you want to kill MCs then you take your codex's anti-MC weapon". In this case that means grav. If you refuse to take grav then you have only yourself to blame for making the game unfair, and you should apologize to your opponent then change your list to a fairer one (with grav).

Peregrine:

When were MCs introduced into the game?

When were grav weapons introduced?

The problems you have with MCs didn't really become a thing until 6th edition. The same edition Grav-cannons came out.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Fixed for you.

They don't. Free rhinos and razorbacks fall under that category when you take a battle company, but if you pay the 35 points for a rhino or the 55 points for a razorback, nobody considers them OP. Consider the fact that they generally weren't spammed in 6th edition.

Precisely. I did think it was considered obvious I was talking about the free variant, but if there was confusion, I do apologise.
Nevertheless, you admit - free transports are OP.

Did you know that there is a reason that Eldar, Tau AND Space Marines are regarded the best three armies in the meta? I wonder why that could be?
It surely wouldn't have anything to do with the:
Grav-guns (which kill Riptides well enough, and should be classed as the de-facto MC killing weapons instead of the outdated lascannon)

Free Transports

Accurate Deep Strike potential (to get that grav in the right place)

Ready access to Bikes (with sweet sweet grav)

A powerful psychic formation

One of the best beatstick HQ options

I agree. All of those things are OP. That doesn't make the riptide less OP.

True. But it's all still evidence that Marines have tools that can also deal with Riptides. If every army was built at the same tier as Marines and Tau, would there be imbalance? No, because they're all the same tier.

Immunity to practically an entire section of the rules (Morale)

That's really not accurate. ATSKNF isn't the same thing as fearless. My marines run off the table often enough. I'd much prefer fearless.

Hence, "practically".

I'd still take ATSKNF, but that's personal preference. And I'd rather have ATSKNF over nothing.

I mean, free tanks are so over powered. I know you like them, but if you REALLY liked them, you'd put them in a cabinet and never use them. Don't know about you, but I love using my £25 Razorback as a paperweight instead of actually using the model for it's intended purpose and playing a game with it.

Feth it. At this point, I'm willing to admit it. Free tanks are OP. Pretty much all of the formations are OP. We need to go back to CADs. Enough with formations. Enough with allied detachments. Enough with unbound. CAD UBER ALLES!

Formations are fine. No-one is complaining massively about the Starter Box formations. I know of no-one who has complained at the First Company Strikeforce, or the Emperor's Shield IG formation, or the Raptor Wing.
Fix the broken ones, like the full Battle Company.

Allies are fine. Removed the combinations that break the game, and allies work fine for narrative, spectacular games.

Unbound is fine. Remove all scoring units in Unbound lists, and problem solved. That's why most competitive lists are not Unbound.

 Traditio wrote:
Peregrine:

When were MCs introduced into the game?

When were grav weapons introduced?

What's your point? I don't care how things used to work in 2nd edition, this is 2016 and 7th edition. And in 7th edition grav is your anti-MC weapon. If you refuse to take grav then you are making the game unbalanced and unfair for any opponent who brings MCs.

TheCustomLime wrote:The problems you have with MCs didn't really become a thing until 6th edition. The same edition Grav-cannons came out.

Basically. It's not difficult to see what was going on.

GW: "Hey, have some juicy 2+ armor save, multiple wound monstrous creatures that are darned near impossible to kill, for the low, low, low price of $90 a pop...oh, and by the way, here's this weapon that specifically kills those things, that you can buy at a rate of 1 per box, at the low, low, low price of $50 a pop!"

The idea that it's somehow appropriate that grav weapons should be the only weapon that's effective at dealing with MCs is a ridiculous notion. It's an obvious cash grab on GW's part. They released one OP thing and another OP thing to deal with that other OP thing, and to hell with the "legacy" weapons and models that preceded them.

 Selym wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nothing is afraid of lascannons and plasma cannons.

I am. My IG and CSM armies regularly get tabled by the end of turn 3 because of them. After tons of monetary investment, and waaaayy too many games, I have been unable to find anything in those codexes that helps me win a game.

I'm not even joking.

So does that mean lascannons and plasmacannons are op? HELL YES. I say we ban them.

As we all are aware of, CSM are in a bad place. I can understand that.
My AM have never had such a massive problem with lascannons, and plasma cannons are still hamstrung by the inability to snap-fire, the poor Blast rules, and Get's Hot!

What is it specifically about the lascannons and plasma cannons that are so bad for your AM?
(CSM do need a new codex though)