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 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Literally only grav cannons provide an answer to your riptide. Out of an entire codex of options, I have literally one against your riptide.

Yes. That's the very definition of OP bull gak.

No, it's the definition of "if you want to kill MCs then you take your codex's anti-MC weapon". In this case that means grav. If you refuse to take grav then you have only yourself to blame for making the game unfair, and you should apologize to your opponent then change your list to a fairer one (with grav).

Peregrine:

When were MCs introduced into the game?

When were grav weapons introduced?

MC's have been around for ages. The current issues with them are often mitigatable. And at this point, not taking your specific anti-MC weapons is like not bothering with AT weapons "because Land Raiders are op".

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Precisely. I did think it was considered obvious I was talking about the free variant, but if there was confusion, I do apologise.
Nevertheless, you admit - free transports are OP.

Relatively speaking. Against other formations and codex options, free transports are fine.

Abstractly considered, free transports are completely OP and should never have been a thing.

True. But it's all still evidence that Marines have tools that can also deal with Riptides. If every army was built at the same tier as Marines and Tau, would there be imbalance? No, because they're all the same tier.

External balance vs. internal balance.

Formations are fine. No-one is complaining massively about the Starter Box formations. I know of no-one who has complained at the First Company Strikeforce, or the Emperor's Shield IG formation, or the Raptor Wing.

I vehemently disagree. Formations have introduced a much greater degree of OP bull gak than existed previously. Unbound introduced a much greater degree of OP bull gak than existed previously. Allied detachments allowed more OP bull gak than existed previously.

CADs are fine. There's nothing wrong with the CAD. All of the units need to be internally and externally balanced, and everyone needs to run CADs. It's that simple. You want to run an allied detachment? Fine. Then bring a minimum of 1 HQ and 2 troop choices.

 Traditio wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:The problems you have with MCs didn't really become a thing until 6th edition. The same edition Grav-cannons came out.

Basically. It's not difficult to see what was going on.

GW: "Hey, have some juicy 2+ armor save, multiple wound monstrous creatures that are darned near impossible to kill, for the low, low, low price of $90 a pop...oh, and by the way, here's this weapon that specifically kills those things, that you can buy at a rate of 1 per box, at the low, low, low price of $50 a pop!"

The idea that it's somehow appropriate that grav weapons should be the only weapon that's effective at dealing with MCs is a ridiculous notion. It's an obvious cash grab on GW's part. They released one OP thing and another OP thing to deal with that other OP thing, and to hell with the "legacy" weapons and models that preceded them.

You can get two Grav-cannons in the Devastator box and it's only $46. But that's true of all marine heavy weapons except the Missile Launcher. If you wanted to kill an MC with Lascannons you'd end up paying the same amount.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Nothing is afraid of lascannons and plasma cannons.

I am. My IG and CSM armies regularly get tabled by the end of turn 3 because of them. After tons of monetary investment, and waaaayy too many games, I have been unable to find anything in those codexes that helps me win a game.

I'm not even joking.

So does that mean lascannons and plasmacannons are op? HELL YES. I say we ban them.

As we all are aware of, CSM are in a bad place. I can understand that.
My AM have never had such a massive problem with lascannons, and plasma cannons are still hamstrung by the inability to snap-fire, the poor Blast rules, and Get's Hot!

What is it specifically about the lascannons and plasma cannons that are so bad for your AM?
(CSM do need a new codex though)

At this point I don't even know. Something about lascannons always seems to have them kill my stuff waay too easily. Like, it's not even funny anymore.

A typical game turn goes like this:

Opponent fires three lascannons, three of my Russes explode.
Opponent fires Plasmacannon at IG Vets. IG vets take three casualties and fail morale. Fail to regroup and run off table.

My IG suck.

Selym wrote:Opponent fires three lascannons, three of my Russes explode.

Is your opponent cheating? Russes have front AV 14, no? Lascannons only pen on 6s.

Opponent fires Plasmacannon at IG Vets. IG vets take three casualties and fail morale. Fail to regroup and run off table.

Are your IG vets properly spaced?

Why aren't they in a dedicated transport?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:You can get two Grav-cannons in the Devastator box and it's only $46. But that's true of all marine heavy weapons except the Missile Launcher. If you wanted to kill an MC with Lascannons you'd end up paying the same amount.

Lolno.

Presumably, their customers already had lascannons. Thus the reason they needed to sell those grav-cannons.

By the time I disembark my Vets, they usually aren't capable of good spacing, and the lascannons are across multiple opponents.

I played a few games with just myself to recreate the effect, and it was still getting silly results.

Bought new dice. Same again.

 Selym wrote:
By the time I disembark my Vets, they usually aren't capable of good spacing, and the lascannons are across multiple opponents.

I played a few games with just myself to recreate the effect, and it was still getting silly results.

Bought new dice. Same again.

Selym, I'm sorry to tell you this...

...

...

...but I think that dice might hate you.

Normally, I'm not superstitious.

But the dice legit might just not like you.

What you're describing is statistically extremely unlikely.

 Traditio wrote:

 Selym wrote:
By the time I disembark my Vets, they usually aren't capable of good spacing, and the lascannons are across multiple opponents.

I played a few games with just myself to recreate the effect, and it was still getting silly results.

Bought new dice. Same again.

Selym, I'm sorry to tell you this...

...

...

...but I think that dice might hate you.

Normally, I'm not superstitious.

But the dice legit might just not like you.

What you're describing is statistically extremely unlikely.

Yeah...

I fixed it by being BT though. EC shanks everything.

Selym wrote:I fixed it by being BT though. EC shanks everything.

Seriously, though, if what you are saying is true:

Weighted dice. Check your opponent's dice to see if they have lead in them.

The chances of 3 lascannons hitting and exploding 3 Leeman Russes, assuming marines firing at normal BS...

He'd have to roll 6s no less than 6 times in a single sitting.

The chances of that are 1/6 to the 6th power.

1/45,656

That's not even taking into account the TO HIT rolls.

Your opponent might be cheating. No joke.

He usually uses MY dice.

I'll admit, the three lascannon shots = 3 kills is a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not uncommon for him to fire a number of shots you can count on one hand, and score 2 or more kills.

Nobody is forcing the OP to play an army that stomps his opponents. He very easily could play a different Necron army. He could even play the same Necron army, but say: "Hey, just so you know, this isn't a decurion. This is a CAD."

If he chooses to run a decurion, that's on him.

So just a little context, from memory I have run the Decurion twice, both times at the request of my opponent. I personally find the Decurion very restrictive and boring, plus it limits what you can do with the army. I've never ran an orikan star, ran the d/lord&wraith star once only when my mate asked to fight the cheesiest list I could make (this was against his AdMech). I have inadvertently made lists that had combos that turned out to be very strong, and I don't run them anymore. When I play the weaker armies I go out of my way to make less powerful lists and try out different things. Also I don't run formations (I ran a szerath/Anrakyr combo with a squad of buffed up immortals as the centrepiece of my army in a CAD for example).

So no Traditio, I don't run Decurion, or Death Stars, or min max when fighting nids/IG/orks. Don't get me wrong, I do do all of these things when I am power gaming against the stronger armies my mates have (tau, AdMech etc) but so are they in those games.

I'm not trying to have a "woe is me, it's getting boring stomping my friends constantly" post. I was just wondering if other people are in the same boat as I have been feeling lately. I feel bad fielding my necrons, even with sub optimal lists, against weaker armies. E.G I play against my mates tyranids. I have army wide FNP, 3+ armour saves on average, AV13 vehicles, gauss, lots of mobility, powerful shooting, solid CC abilities AP3-4 consistently (all without adding Relentless, MTC, formation bonuses and so on) as basic rules for my army. He has t-shirt saves on his troops, BS3, synapse headaches etc. the deck is stacked in my favour even when I make weaker lists because of the power difference in the codex's.

I see a lot of power gaming and competitive stuff on here. I also see people with lower teir codex's rightfully complain about the shortcomings and imbalances in their armies. I guess I just wanted to see if there was other people on the other side of the coin, not enjoying playing the stronger armies because of the imbalance.

Edited'd to add more context

So lemme get this right traditio, no one should have to include anything to ever deal with riptide or other MC/GMC? You shouldn't have to "list tailor"(despite including options to kill a riptide also being good at killing tons of other things), but the opponent should list tailor to your sub par list that refuses to change for any reason whatsoever to give you a chance?

(Also, are you saying in a 10kpt game, no one should bring a riptide? No one should be forced to spend points on something that can kill a riptide? That in 10000 points you literally would be so tight on points you couldnt get anything to deal with it? Really? Are you even listening to yourself?)

 Wolfblade wrote:
So lemme get this right traditio, no one should have to include anything to ever deal with riptide or other MC/GMC? You shouldn't have to "list tailor"(despite including options to kill a riptide also being good at killing tons of other things), but the opponent should list tailor to your sub par list that refuses to change for any reason whatsoever to give you a chance?

(Also, are you saying in a 10kpt game, no one should bring a riptide? No one should be forced to spend points on something that can kill a riptide? That in 10000 points you literally would be so tight on points you couldnt get anything to deal with it? Really? Are you even listening to yourself?)

If it has a 2+ armor save and a power fist, lascannon or plasma weapon cannot reliably kill it, it shouldn't exist in this game, and granted that it does, you shouldn't use it.

That is my position.

At any rate, you are trying to turn the tables on me by saying: "Oh, you shouldn't have to list tailor for us, but we should have to list tailor for you?"

No. I'm saying that nobody should field OP gak.

THOU SHALT NOT POWER GAME.

If you would be embarrassed to use it against a casual orks or CSM player, then you shouldn't field it. Period.

That's all that I'm saying.

I'm totally fine with admitting I'm wrong here. There's just nothing that seems to scream "They're unbeatable! Run for the hills!" when is comes to the Riptide.

Tough, cheap creatures are powerful. Totally uncontested. Unbeatable and unfair? I don't think so.

The thing is GW, especially JJ will argue that the game is about using the rules as a guideline.

Essentially, following the rules to the letter is wrong.
Min maxers are as wrong as someone hamstringing their list by not taking up codex options (Trad I'm looking at you here).

It is surprising, given the rules, that pick up and play is even possible.

I feel bad if your codex is lower tier, but GW gives not one gak.

Ne_Streets wrote:
I'm totally fine with admitting I'm wrong here. There's just nothing that seems to scream "They're unbeatable! Run for the hills!" when is comes to the Riptide.

Tough, cheap creatures are powerful. Totally uncontested. Unbeatable and unfair? I don't think so.

Playtesting over time, as evidenced by long-standing popular opinion, strongly indicate that riptides are unfairly points efficient and, in a word, OP.

Are they unbeatable? No.

Are they unfair? You bet. No question.

I understand that you'll want to disagree with me, given your Tau colored lenses, but, again, popular consensus agrees with me.

There is nothing wrong with power gaming, if both parties agree and are happy doing it. People do enjoy this, it's competitive and fun creating crazy cheese lists at times.

otherwise I 100% agree with you Traditio, if the armies aren't equal in power or it's just a casual game amongst friends, then power gaming is bad and shouldn't be done.

If it's a competition, go nuts and power game. If it's a Sunday arvo game with the lads around having a bit of banter, don't power game. But what I'm trying to say is that even when not trying to power game, I fee it isn't enjoyable for either party when the armies are on completely different power levels

Don't you yourself field a full battle company from time to time?

So, are you saying a aun'va is OP then? A powerfist or Lascannon has fairly bad chance of killing him. Also by what standard are we going with? A 1A marine with a powerfist not charging? A raging space sharks chapter master with 2 powerfists on the charge? How many lascannons/plasma weapons/attacks are we talking about? I would never expect one or two, or even 5 to reliably kill ANYTHING, not even a 10man marine squad in one round.

Also, didn't you say playing competitively is fine, just as playing for fun or the "spectacle" is too? (Aka the format where you can expect the most powerful gaming to be done)

If you're accusing me of tau colored lenses, then you're still looking at the game as if it was 5th edition. The time for lascannons/ PF sgts has long passed, sorry to break that to you. Times change and if you're unwilling to adapt you'll probably end up complaining about every other army.

Also, whether or not the "popular consensus" agrees with you, we're at the very least a strong minority, so you have to consider our opinion!

 Traditio wrote:
I understand that you'll want to disagree with me, given your Tau colored lenses, but, again, popular consensus agrees with me.

You're making up your own standard.

 Traditio wrote:
If it has a 2+ armor save and a power fist, lascannon or plasma weapon cannot reliably kill it, it shouldn't exist in this game, and granted that it does, you shouldn't use it.

IOW: "I refuse to use the appropriate counter for a unit, and if I can't kill it with these other random things you shouldn't use it".

THOU SHALT NOT POWER GAME.

And now we're back to "THOU SHALL NOT PLAY THE GAME IN WAYS THAT I DO NOT ENJOY".

If you would be embarrassed to use it against a casual orks or CSM player, then you shouldn't field it. Period.

If you would be embarrassed to use it against a competitive Tau or Eldar player, then you shouldn't field it. Period. Stop making the game unfair and unbalanced by bringing armies that can't compete with Riptides/Wraithknights/etc. That is, if fairness is really your concern and not your vendetta against competitive players.

 Traditio wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
So lemme get this right traditio, no one should have to include anything to ever deal with riptide or other MC/GMC? You shouldn't have to "list tailor"(despite including options to kill a riptide also being good at killing tons of other things), but the opponent should list tailor to your sub par list that refuses to change for any reason whatsoever to give you a chance?

(Also, are you saying in a 10kpt game, no one should bring a riptide? No one should be forced to spend points on something that can kill a riptide? That in 10000 points you literally would be so tight on points you couldnt get anything to deal with it? Really? Are you even listening to yourself?)

If it has a 2+ armor save and a power fist, lascannon or plasma weapon cannot reliably kill it, it shouldn't exist in this game, and granted that it does, you shouldn't use it.

That is my position.

At any rate, you are trying to turn the tables on me by saying: "Oh, you shouldn't have to list tailor for us, but we should have to list tailor for you?"

No. I'm saying that nobody should field OP gak.

THOU SHALT NOT POWER GAME.

If you would be embarrassed to use it against a casual orks or CSM player, then you shouldn't field it. Period.

That's all that I'm saying.

I've had Riptides tarpitted and rendered useless by Orks. I've seen Riptides slaughtered by Daemon Princes. So no - I'd still take a Riptide in points-appropriate games against CSM and Orks. However, it should also be noted that both codexes should be brought up so they are no longer the measuring stick of badness.

Bringing a single Riptide is not power gaming at 10k points. If you genuinely think a single Riptide at those points is too far, I have nothing else to say.

Your point on "if a power fist, lascannon or plasma gun can't kill it, it's op" is an incorrect logic.
A power fist needs to get into CC, and largely depends on the wielder of the fist - an IG Sergeant or Space Marine Chapter Master?
Lascannons are single shot weapons that cannot ID T5 units.
Plasma guns need to be in 24 inches, and cannot ID T4 units.

All of these are outclassed by grav, which is the new metric by which we should measure from.

You are still demanding other players to tailor to your inability to adapt and embrace the new meta of the game.
You don't to change your list to deal with things that are now commonplace (formations, allies, Tau, Eldar). Why should someone tailor to you instead?

 Wolfblade wrote:
Don't you yourself field a full battle company from time to time?

I field a battle company and get free transports if and only if I know in advance that my opponent is fielding a formation.

And even then, we're talking about rhinos.

Let me repeat that:

Rhinos.

And only 6 of them.

When I field a CAD (which is normally), do you know what changes?

I drop a couple of melta bombs and a captain and chaplain that I didn't want in the first place.

At any rate, you want me to make a poll of this?

"Which do you find more threatening or unfair? Free rhinos or riptides?"

So, are you saying a aun'va is OP then? A powerfist or Lascannon has fairly bad chance of killing him.

Pedro Kantor is a 185 point model with a 2+ armor save, 4+ invuln and a 5+ feel no pain. A single wound from a power fist will one shot him.

Do tell me about this aun'va of yours.

Also, didn't you say playing competitively is fine, just as playing for fun or the "spectacle" is too? (Aka the format where you can expect the most powerful gaming to be done)

Yes. If you are going to a grand tournament, then by all means, bring the riptide wing. Bring a storm surge. Cheese like it's going out of style.

Everyone else is going to be doing the exact same thing.

If you're playing a casual game against a random opponent, shame on you if you dare to place even a single riptide on the table.

"DISHONOR! Dishonor on you. Dishonor on your family. Dishonor on your cow!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:All of these are outclassed by grav, which is the new metric by which we should measure from.\

Or maybe, just maybe, grav is yet more OP bullgak that should be avoided in casual games.

Just a thought. If it outclasses all other comparable shooting, then maybe that's a flaw in game design.

You don't to change your list to deal with things that are now commonplace (formations, allies, Tau, Eldar). Why should someone tailor to you instead?

I'm sure that there are a ton of people like me who want to play the armies that we actually want to play and don't like the codex/power creep which began in 6th edition.

This is evidenced by the drop in revenue for GW once 6th edition dropped.

Why should you avoid OP gak? Because the more people like you play OP gak, the less likely people like me are to bother with this game, and the less likely you are to get a casual game.

 Stormonu wrote:

Oh, so blame the players and not the game? Fiiiiiiine. Guess we won't see any more Tau or Eldar threads from you, huh?

Was that from the guy who claimed you CANNOT make non-cheesy list from eldar or did I mix him with another eldar whiner?

Yea but where do you draw the line Traditio? Wraith knights? Imperial Knights? D weapons? Anything that can stomp? Grav? Formations? Free/extra points? Lords of war?

Aun'VA has anot item that gives him an invul/cover save (forget which) that equal to the AP of the weapon that's shooting at him. Good luck killing him with that lascannon. Bolters or shootas however...

In my casual games people can deal with a riptide because they've adapted their armies. Go figure.

As for a poll, we all know they're meaningless. And you'd skew the vote options to be in your favor ("what's more OP a rhino or an IA riptide?")

Also, are you mad at the IA, or the riptide? HBC riptides aren't scary in anyway honestly.

Still have to consider my opinion right? We're a strong minority!

Klowny wrote:
Yea but where do you draw the line Traditio? Wraith knights? Imperial Knights? D weapons? Anything that can stomp? Grav? Formations? Free/extra points? Lords of war?

None. No shenanigans. Not even a single bit.

I've said this before, and I'll say it now:

If it's an "optional" auto-take, don't you dare.

If you so much as smile when you contemplate running it, re-think it, and chances are, you should pick something else.

No. Shenanigans.

Build something that actually looks like an army. No fewer than 50 models at 1850 points. And no "auto-takes." No superheavies. No gargantuan monstrous creatures. No grav. None of it. And it had all better come in CAD form, for feth's sake.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Aun'VA has anot item that gives him an invul/cover save (forget which) that equal to the AP of the weapon that's shooting at him.

Yes. Don't run him. Run something else that doesn't involve shenanigans.

 Traditio wrote:
At any rate, you want me to make a poll of this?

"Which do you find more threatening or unfair? Free rhinos or riptides?"

The Rhinos. Riptides are 180 points each, compared to 350+ points worth of free Rhinos/Razorbacks/pods. So for the Riptide to be more threatening you'd have to argue that the "fair" cost for the Riptide is 500+ points, which is absolutely absurd. A player who brings hundreds of points worth of free transports is getting way more "extra" points worth of stuff than a Tau player who brings a single Riptide.

Do tell me about this aun'va of yours.

He gets a save equal to the AP of the weapon, which makes him really durable against AP 2 weapons. However, he's a pretty weak unit except for the save gimmick and sees very little use. But he does rather effectively disprove your idea that a unit is overpowered if plasma/power fists/etc can't kill it easily.

If you're playing a casual game against a random opponent, shame on you if you dare to place even a single riptide on the table.

Why are you assuming that a game against a random opponent is "casual"? Shouldn't the definition of "random" imply that the opponent could be casual, competitive, or any other style of play?

Just a thought. If it outclasses all other comparable shooting, then maybe that's a flaw in game design.

Grav outclasses all other comparable shooting against this kind of unit. Have fun bringing grav spam against a green tide army. Complaining about how grav is the best anti-MC weapon makes about as much sense as calling it a flaw in game design that melta is the best option against AV 14.

I'm sure that there are a ton of people like me who want to play the armies that we actually want to play and don't like the codex/power creep which began in 6th edition.

I see, so now you've abandoned the idea of "fairness" and revealed your true reason: you don't want to have to change the army you've been playing with, even if it makes the game unbalanced and unfair when you bring it.

Why should you avoid OP gak? Because the more people like you play OP gak, the less likely people like me are to bother with this game, and the less likely you are to get a casual game.

Alternatively, once we remove you (and people like you) from the community the rest of us can play casual games with our "overpowered" armies without any fairness issues at all.

 Traditio wrote:

Klowny wrote:
Yea but where do you draw the line Traditio? Wraith knights? Imperial Knights? D weapons? Anything that can stomp? Grav? Formations? Free/extra points? Lords of war?

None. No shenanigans. Not even a single bit.

I've said this before, and I'll say it now:

If it's an "optional" auto-take, don't you dare.

If you so much as smile when you contemplate running it, re-think it, and chances are, you should pick something else.

No. Shenanigans.

Build something that actually looks like an army. No fewer than 50 models at 1850 points. And no "auto-takes." No superheavies. No gargantuan monstrous creatures. No grav. None of it. And it had all better come in CAD form, for feth's sake.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Aun'VA has anot item that gives him an invul/cover save (forget which) that equal to the AP of the weapon that's shooting at him.

Yes. Don't run him. Run something else that doesn't involve shenanigans.

shenanigans
ʃɪˈnanɪɡ(ə)nz/
noun/informal
secret or dishonest activity or manoeuvring.
"the chairman was accused of financial shenanigans"
silly or high-spirited behaviour; mischief.

How is a riptide dishonest? We know everything about them. A quick lookie on Dakka will give you the mathammer on it. It's really not difficult to make a list that can handle it out of a codex that GW didn't gak on.

No quantum shielding? No RP? No special wargear of any kind? No c'tan Deciever? No tervigons? No GK turn 1 deep strike? No flyrants? No lukky stik? No psychic powers that can move terrain/make av15 land raiders?

Klowny wrote:
No quantum shielding? No RP? No special wargear of any kind? No c'tan Deciever? No tervigons? No GK turn 1 deep strike? No flyrants? No lukky stik? No psychic powers that can move terrain/make av15 land raiders?

Not a single one.

Get 50-100 dudes. Give them guns. Put them in the tanks of your choice. And call it a day.