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 Red Viper wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I find it a bit odd that people seem to think boardgamers don't know how to play complex games.

I tried to get some very smart MTG and boardgame coworkers into war machine. The rules they picked up fine... It was the movement. Some just couldn't seem to move with a tape measure and would hold it backwards, others would get super detailed and take forever to move to their spots.

X wing and attack wing were the perfect middle ground. deadzone has potential, but I haven't gotten around to it.

This is looking promising.

I think I'll still play KoW with my real friends, but this game could be a hit with boardgamers and maybe more importantly... The flgs's which all regularly run ffg events already

This.

I have a very good (read : smart) boardgaming group. Everyone is fine with playing 3+ hours games of Through the Ages or spending 2 hours afterward going over what everybody did so has to figure out the best moves next game. Everyone loves Blood Rage and spazz over the miniatures, asking me when they'll be painted. But the very second I start talking wargames, I've lost them. They will not, ever touch a game that requires a ruler. Even as I write this, a friend of mine who I play the Netrunner LCG with, just asked me "wargaming, is that those games that you play with a ruler?" as if he was talking about a plague.

I've gotten a few to play X-wing and admit it was fun. So that's my hope.

Being on the fence is super annoying.
I hate the wargamer's aversion to tokens and proprietary dices, as I hate the boardgamer's aversion to assembly requirements and rulers.
The struggle is real.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
I have a very good (read : smart) boardgaming group. Everyone is fine with playing 3+ hours games of Through the Ages or spending 2 hours afterward going over what everybody did so has to figure out the best moves next game. Everyone loves Blood Rage and spazz over the miniatures, asking me when they'll be painted. But the very second I start talking wargames, I've lost them. They will not, ever touch a game that requires a ruler. Even as I write this, a friend of mine who I play the Netrunner LCG with, just asked me "wargaming, is that those games that you play with a ruler?" as if he was talking about a plague.

I know people who are the same way. My wife, for instance, hates miniature games because of measuring - especially when there is a unit of 10+ guys that you have to move around (she either measures each one's movement individually or just pushes them all like poker chips, drives me nuts). She likes Infinity because you only really move one guy at a time and only a few inches, but if there is ever a line of sight dispute, she breaks out a laser pointer and studies the board like it was the Zapruder film. Now, I just make her tell me what she wants to do and I measure and move for her.

I hate the wargamer's aversion to tokens and proprietary dices, as I hate the boardgamer's aversion to assembly requirements and rulers.
The struggle is real.

I kind of get where both sides are coming from. Tokens are clutter. Dice get lost and proprietary dice are expensive to replace. Assembly is time consuming and lengthens the time from purchase to play. And rulers are fiddly and imprecise. But I don't think any of those things should be deal breakers. If nothing else, RuneWars Miniatures should be the perfect hybrid of what both board gamers and mini gamers hate

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Being on the fence is super annoying.
I hate the wargamer's aversion to tokens and proprietary dices, as I hate the boardgamer's aversion to assembly requirements and rulers.
The struggle is real.

I understand both sides of it, too. I don't mind tokens and special dice and whatnot, but it's when those things use strange hieroglyphic like symbols where you have to keep referencing the rulebook that makes it a problem.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Being on the fence is super annoying.
I hate the wargamer's aversion to tokens and proprietary dices, as I hate the boardgamer's aversion to assembly requirements and rulers.
The struggle is real.

I understand both sides of it, too. I don't mind tokens and special dice and whatnot, but it's when those things use strange hieroglyphic like symbols where you have to keep referencing the rulebook that makes it a problem.

For this game atleast, there are normal sizes reference cards so you know what is what. So easy reference

str00dles1 wrote:

Davor wrote:
I think those dials will be great for the game. I mean now we can have both sides move at the same time or at least get rid of the I do everything, you do everything. This might actually work.

Well you don't move at the same time.

Such as if I wanna do a 4 move charge it might show a 5 on the dial next to the symbol. You activate moves from lowest number to highest. Incase of a tie, whoever has the int that turn gets to activate first.

I did say it will get rid of the You do everything, I do everything 40K/Fantasy games do.

Kovnik Obama wrote:
I doubt that FFG plans on recuperating every other disgruntled WHFB player out there. If that was their plans, they would have made some attempt at making the game compatible with the more popular ranges. If the round bases are the same size as AoS/WHFB, this could work if they sold the square bases separately.

No, the point is not to "recuperate" them, but to appeal to them enough to sell them a new product. A new game. Not adaptors to make the products they purchased from somewhere else make your product irrelevant. If it's true that units come with upgrade cards like X-Wing, there may well be a collectible element here as well. The point of entering an existing market is to appeal to those in it, not to have them not buy your product and keep using the competitors.

I have no clue as to how you think you can guess the longevity of the game before it is even reviewed. I too can make guesses based on no information whatsoever : the Conquest LCG is sure to have dozens more cycles, the FFG-GW relationship has never been healthier.

I've been watching the industry a long time and have seen these sort of "also ran" products come and go. I think the age of ranked up fantasy games as a major type of game played is largely over and this is a late entry into a dying market. Sure, there will be small groups that pop up here and there and people will buy it and play it, but it's never going to become anything even close to what Warhammer was. It's just another option, among many, for an approach to gaming that has been dwindling for probably a decade.

agnosto wrote:
It wouldn't be the internet if there weren't a small group of people jumping to conclusions over a few pictures and an incomplete idea of gameplay. No, much easier to declare it a steaming pile of gack now than actually wait until it's released and give it an objective try.

Or (maybe just maybe) there are a lot of very visually oriented miniature gamers out there and the way the actual product photographs look so far are turning people off? Sorry, but I don't need to know anything about the rules to know that puzzle piece edged movement trays look awful to me and I won't ever want them. As well, I know from other people speaking up (and my own direct experience with X-Wing) that table clutter is an issue with FFG's games in general and this game looks to be no different.

Re: rulers... yeah, I don't get what board gamers' conceptual problem is regarding adapting to rulers, but, that said, I think a good grid is almost always better than rulers, since it does away with all of the ambiguity of exact distance, turning, "maybe LOS?" and trying to figure out if something's in your favor before taking the move. I'd take an occasionally problematic grid positioning over that, any day of the week.

I'm pretty stoked for this. I have yet to find a fantasy mass battle game that really appeals. KoW and Dragon Rampant are both fun but both have their flaws. This looks to have more tactical depth than either game, as good a balance as KoW, and as speedy play as DR -- which is three pluses, from my perspective.

It's not like you have to use their minis, right? Just their movement trays, dials, etc.

I quite like most of the undead, too. Antler Helmed Skelly General Dude definitely does it for me.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's not like you have to use their minis, right? Just their movement trays, dials, etc.

Knowing FFG, they'll be bundling those, so, yeah, you could buy their gadgets and cards and models, and then buy other models to replace theirs...

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Being on the fence is super annoying.
I hate the wargamer's aversion to tokens and proprietary dices, as I hate the boardgamer's aversion to assembly requirements and rulers.
The struggle is real.

I understand both sides of it, too. I don't mind tokens and special dice and whatnot, but it's when those things use strange hieroglyphic like symbols where you have to keep referencing the rulebook that makes it a problem.

Because that never happens with 40K......oh wait; the biggest reason it takes hours to play a game of 40K is due to all the fiddly special rules and constantly having to suss out what the spastic monkey who wrote the rules meant when they through poo on the page instead of writing clearly.

frozenwastes wrote:Or (maybe just maybe) there are a lot of very visually oriented miniature gamers out there and the way the actual product photographs look so far are turning people off? Sorry, but I don't need to know anything about the rules to know that puzzle piece edged movement trays look awful to me and I won't ever want them. As well, I know from other people speaking up (and my own direct experience with X-Wing) that table clutter is an issue with FFG's games in general and this game looks to be no different.

I get what you're saying because I've started to feel that way about GW's games and the bloated mess of 40K which requires you have numerous reference books on the table, lots of tokens or dice for wound counters, psychic powers, special effects, lingering effects, etc. "Here, let me look up the special rules for this formation if I can only remember what book they were in...."

I'm ready for a game that at least tries to organize the clutter; Warmachine does it but nobody around here plays that. If some of the massive number of people who play X-Wing start playing this game, I might have something worth getting into.

frozenwastes wrote:table clutter is an issue with FFG's games in general and this game looks to be no different.

My group still calls them all "focus turds" from back when we played a lot of WM, and every turn or two, we'd realized there was a pile of counters strewn across the board, maybe a third of which had expired or no one could remember what they were reminding us of.

 agnosto wrote:

I get what you're saying because I've started to feel that way about GW's games and the bloated mess of 40K which requires you have numerous reference books on the table, lots of tokens or dice for wound counters, psychic powers, special effects, lingering effects, etc. "Here, let me look up the special rules for this formation if I can only remember what book they were in...."

Yeah, I think 40k kinda' jumped the shark with their most recent pair of editions: complete free-form, without some way of tracking units on cards, is just a complete pain. It was playing Silver Tower, and needing to sort through 2 indexes to track which monsters were doing what, every turn, instead of just having a couple cheat sheets out, that made me really understand how behind the times GW's methods feel.

I get that it's harder to track with customization, but the old army list system is just so clunky.

I'm the same with 40K right now. Love the core of the game, love the setting, but I can't keep up with the rules any more: GW have turned doing so into a part-time job, needing several hours a week of investment just to stay informed enough to be competitive. If I wanted that I would be a World of Warcraft player.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'm pretty stoked for this. I have yet to find a fantasy mass battle game that really appeals. KoW and Dragon Rampant are both fun but both have their flaws. This looks to have more tactical depth than either game, as good a balance as KoW, and as speedy play as DR -- which is three pluses, from my perspective.

It's not like you have to use their minis, right? Just their movement trays, dials, etc.

I quite like most of the undead, too. Antler Helmed Skelly General Dude definitely does it for me.

Well, kinda you need to use theirs. I mean you could use yours but it would be a lot of work.

Basically every models base has a hole in it (not all the way through) and each part of the movement tray has a peg. Mini sits on the peg. So you could I guess just the peg off the indented trays?

Seems more of a hassle then its worth to want to use someone elses minis. The starts gonna be their usual 100$, so buying at a discount is 75-80$ or so on amazon prime. Very cheap price point for the amount of stuff you get.

I'm sure if the game is popular enough we'll see the laser cut wood guys putting together special templates to match the base sizes for other games.

I'd like to try the game, but I don't have the time to build & paint all new armies. One thing I like about Kings of War is I can use my old collection of minis, in fact I don't own a single KOW model but I can still field multiple armies. I know FF will be all about selling their own products and making you use them, but if they want their game to be a success I think they're going to have to be able to accommodate other minis too somehow... at least at first.

I hope the Game will have expansions with re-usable package.

 Necros wrote:
I'm sure if the game is popular enough we'll see the laser cut wood guys putting together special templates to match the base sizes for other games.

I'd like to try the game, but I don't have the time to build & paint all new armies. One thing I like about Kings of War is I can use my old collection of minis, in fact I don't own a single KOW model but I can still field multiple armies. I know FF will be all about selling their own products and making you use them, but if they want their game to be a success I think they're going to have to be able to accommodate other minis too somehow... at least at first.

Paiting could take awhile, but there is nearly no building. Most parts are 1 piece or 2 piece. The bigger stuff is 3-4 that lock in like imperial assault large guys

Yeah I'm sure I'll be able to pick up 3rd party movement trays. Or, as you say, cut off the pegs.

str00dles1 wrote:
Paiting could take awhile, but there is nearly no building. Most parts are 1 piece or 2 piece. The bigger stuff is 3-4 that lock in like imperial assault large guys

Do you know if there is any customization to the miniatures? The website hints that there might be, but if the figures are only two pieces, it doesn't sound like it...

This could be the best game in the world, with groovy dices and all but for me personally unfortunately its a big pass, the miniatures are uninspired, boring toy like and do absolutely nothing for me.

I have purchased several FFG board games over the years and found them for the most part utterly dreadful. Conan was my favorite IP and I could not muster the enthusiasm to even play it after ready the rules. Twilight Imperium was set up once and a friend and I tried to slog through the myriad of confusing and mostly pointless phases and gave up. Descent had dice mechanics that were needlessly confusing and I never figured out. I have Tanhauser- all I can say is what? And finally my ultimate disappointment was Tide of Iron. As a long time Squad Leader player I was so hyped about this and it plays horribly. Nothing at all like Squad Leader, with no tactics other than game rules. I also played the role play game Death Watch and those rules are not well tested. We soon had stacked abilities that broke the system.

In short, I have deliberately avoided this company as they have struck out too many times. Although I have spent several hundred dollars on their products that languish on my shelf.

This looks like another fiddly mess.

Chaos in the Old World was pretty amazing, as game designs go -- though I guess that could be more due to Lang than to FFG, as such?

All their Star Wars games have been incredibly well received though. Not that I've had a chance to play any yet...

I am ridiculously excited about this one. I really like Kings of War and even enjoyed a game of Age of Sigmar once, but no one around here plays it. This game seems like a nice mid point between the two - the added complexity and tactics with the weird looking action wheel (yes, kinda odd looking, but I'll get used to it) that dictates when you go and what happens when you do - that just sounds super cool.

I'll be in for two core sets, and probably two of each expansion - there's supposed to be unit attachments (musicians, banner-bearers), wizards, and heroes (mounted and on foot) available too.

kenofyork wrote:
I have purchased several FFG board games over the years and found them for the most part utterly dreadful. Conan was my favorite IP and I could not muster the enthusiasm to even play it after ready the rules. Twilight Imperium was set up once and a friend and I tried to slog through the myriad of confusing and mostly pointless phases and gave up. Descent had dice mechanics that were needlessly confusing and I never figured out. I have Tanhauser- all I can say is what? And finally my ultimate disappointment was Tide of Iron. As a long time Squad Leader player I was so hyped about this and it plays horribly. Nothing at all like Squad Leader, with no tactics other than game rules. I also played the role play game Death Watch and those rules are not well tested. We soon had stacked abilities that broke the system.

Ouch, I feel for you man, but you've listed off a litany of their worst games! Conan, TI, Tannhauser, Tide of Iron... (I liked Descent, but it took too long and now never hits the table) I can see why you're not a fan - but they do have some good games in their catalog! Find someone who has Eldritch Horror, or give Armada (or X Wing) a try. They're fun!

 Sqorgar wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Paiting could take awhile, but there is nearly no building. Most parts are 1 piece or 2 piece. The bigger stuff is 3-4 that lock in like imperial assault large guys

Do you know if there is any customization to the miniatures? The website hints that there might be, but if the figures are only two pieces, it doesn't sound like it...

In short, yes. The FFG demo guy said it will appeal to the more hardcore miniature hobbyist also with being able to do more custom stuff

kenofyork wrote:


In short, I have deliberately avoided this company as they have struck out too many times. Although I have spent several hundred dollars on their products that languish on my shelf.

This looks like another fiddly mess.

This does look like a fiddly mess, but I'm on the other side of the coin when it comes to FFG. I have spent a bunch of money on FFG stuff and enjoyed the hell out of it. Their Rogue Trader RPG is excellent, Arkham Horror is easily my favorite board game, and we're just getting into Imperial Assault and having a blast. X-Wing and Armada are a miss for me. I'm not sure why I don't like it. I like miniatures, I love Star Wars, and I used to play Wings of War a lot (very similar in many regards, especially movement). I just couldn't get into X-Wing.

My experiences with FFG have been overwhelmingly positive.

Star Wars X-Wing - love it
Star Wars Armada - love it
Descent 2nd Edition - love it
Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition - love it
Arkham Horror - love it
Elder Sign - love it
Warhammer Quest Card Game - love it
Warhammer 40k Conquest - love it
Star Wars Imperial Assualt - love the Skirmish option, Campaign option gets boring after you've killed your hundredth Storm Trooper

In short, I have high expectations for RuneWars. FFG has demonstrated a capacity to write tight rule sets that lend themselves to both competitive and casual play. The rules are typically easy to learn and are FAQ'd as needed.

I really like the idea of the command dials. They work great in both X-Wing and Armada, so I don't see why they wouldn't work great here.

 Kriswall wrote:
My experiences with FFG have been overwhelmingly positive.

Star Wars X-Wing - love it
Star Wars Armada - love it
Descent 2nd Edition - love it
Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition - love it
Arkham Horror - love it
Elder Sign - love it
Warhammer Quest Card Game - love it
Warhammer 40k Conquest - love it
Star Wars Imperial Assualt - love the Skirmish option, Campaign option gets boring after you've killed your hundredth Storm Trooper

In short, I have high expectations for RuneWars. FFG has demonstrated a capacity to write tight rule sets that lend themselves to both competitive and casual play. The rules are typically easy to learn and are FAQ'd as needed.

Well... eventually. I mean, of the games you've listed, many of them are second editions, fixed in an expansion, or are gameplay sequels to other games. Imperial Assault is great, but it's the fourth game in the series (DOOM, Descent, Descent 2E, IA). By now, it'd better be great. I like that FFG keep refining good ideas into great ideas, but their first editions games are noticeably inferior.

RWM builds off of X-Wing in many ways, but it is also FFG's first try at a hobbyist miniatures game. Their LCGs are a well oiled machine now, but it took a few years to get it right. It's going to have some hiccups and flaws. After a year or two though, it should be pretty great.

Do we know the prices or materials of the minis yet?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Do we know the prices or materials of the minis yet?

Starter will be $100 for 48 miniatures and other accessories. Haven't seen the material.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/runewars-the-miniatures-game/products/runewars-miniatures-game/

“This is a runebound age, its magic tired and constrained. The dark history of the land is written across its fields and forests in the ragged scars of war…”
–Astarra the Runewitch

For years, the armies of Waiqar the Undying have stayed within their borders, launching only minor raids across the border. But now, a nameless threat stirs within the Mistlands, and legions of undead cross into the realm of Terrinoth under Waiqar’s command! The Daqan Lords have sounded the call to war, and their finest generals lead armies of warriors and golems to take up defensive positions in the border territory of Roth’s Vale. The first battles of the next great war are about to begin.

RuneWars: The Miniatures Game is a two-player miniatures game of battles between the great powers of Terrinoth. In each game, you and your opponent will gather armies of miniatures and lead them into battle—blocks of infantry will maneuver for position, cavalry wings will wheel and slam into a weakened flank, and monstrous rune golems or carrion lancers will smash through formations of lesser warriors. Innovative command tools, two distinct factions, and countless ways to customize your experience combine to offer an unparalleled miniatures gaming experience in RuneWars. Finally, with forty-eight beautifully sculpted, unpainted figures, you’ll be able to paint and customize your armies to bring an entirely unique touch to your games and enter the hobby of miniatures painting!

At last a 28 mm wargame that uses the SAME movement tray for ALL units.

A good thing that they designed the miniatures and bases FOR the game, and not the opposite like we are used with GW ("we go bonkers with bases") and KoW ("well, if we want to sell miniatures, we'd better use the same bases than That Other Company We Shouldn't Name").

It will be interesting to see what they will manage to do.

I'm not repelled by the models. They sure don't have a lot of variations and look a bit cartoon, but hey...it's not especially much better elsewhere for the same price, nowadays.

BOW posted a how to play video from GenCon. It's long but once they get past talking about the rules in the beginning and start playing it looks like it'll be pretty fun