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 Brometheus wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.

I've been out in AoS land for a while - what is the cabal?

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.

I've been out in AoS land for a while - what is the cabal?

A formation of 3 - 5 Sorcerors from the black legion Supplement re-release. They get a WC3 spell to take control of a non-vehicle unit from your opponent and fire it as if it was yours. Mainly seen as a tax free way to get as many ML3 Sorcerors as required into a KDK army.

Ah ha - got it - thanks!

So I'm just gonna leave this here:

 EnTyme wrote:
So I'm just gonna leave this here:

Do you mean the video being discussed HERE?

So, given that they've basically and they were created for the sole purpose of the starter set does this mean 8th ed is imminent?

If they're truly killing of crimson slaughter, I don't care how bad this supplement or our kits are...totally worth it XD. Keep that to the fluff or make it a C:SM supplement.

Poor Crimson.. He's no longer laughing.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining about chaos players complaining is also complaining right? I haven't heard an original jab at chaos players in the last...oh 10 years.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

The only models with access to an innate 3++ (without additional Psychic power usage) are a limited number of our HQs (requiring purchase of a Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch which is 40pts for Sorcerers and Lords. The only other HQ with access to a 3++ is a Dark Apostle with Mark of Tzeentch but at that point you're paying 120 points in total before other upgrades for a slightly more survivable Chaplain) or Crimson Slaughter Possessed (who have a 1/3 chance of getting a temporary 3++ at the start of each turn).

Funnily enough you'll almost never see a Lord or Sorcerer with a 3++ because 1) Khorne Jugger Lords and Nurgle Fisty-Claw Biker Lords are plain better for their cost and 2) Tzeentch Sorcerers are forced to roll 1 of their powers on the worst Psychic Discipline in the game.

I suppose it's half-decent on our 2+ Armour Save units...but of those only Obliterators are seen as half-usable beyond a one shot suicide unit with combi-weapons (our Terminators).
And it's not like any of our power armour units are amazing enough to use the power on, either.

MoT Lords on the Disk are actually okay in a Crimson Slaughter list. It just can't beat that sweet T6.

They can get T6 now too.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

That's probably because the 3.5 codex of 10 years ago was an anomaly in the overall history of CSM in 40K, but it's some players' favorite and they latched onto it as the baseline. To be fair, it was the only treatment of CSM that was heavily legion-based.

Of course, if GW was to move more toward legions and away from generic CSM/Chaos mishmash, you'd see some players pleased and others made unhappy. It's a complex customer base that will never be easy to please, just because they don't really agree, like I said. It's the same thing with the "simplify 40K" crowd. People can agree on that as a top-level goal, but there'd be lots of disagreement about *what* needs simplified and changed, never mind all the players who *don't* want the ruleset to be majorly overhauled.

Players of other suffering factions like DE and Tyranids aren't a homogeneous bunch, but are probably more on the same page regarding the shortcomings of their armies. And that probably leads to less discussion, and why you don't see as many gripes about those armies even taking player base size into account.

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

That's probably because the 3.5 codex of 10 years ago was an anomaly in the overall history of CSM in 40K, but it's some players' favorite and they latched onto it as the baseline. To be fair, it was the only treatment of CSM that was heavily legion-based.

Of course, if GW was to move more toward legions and away from generic CSM/Chaos mishmash, you'd see some players pleased and others made unhappy. It's a complex customer base that will never be easy to please, just because they don't really agree, like I said. It's the same thing with the "simplify 40K" crowd. People can agree on that as a top-level goal, but there'd be lots of disagreement about *what* needs simplified and changed, never mind all the players who *don't* want the ruleset to be majorly overhauled.

Players of other suffering factions like DE and Tyranids aren't a homogeneous bunch, but are probably more on the same page regarding the shortcomings of their armies. And that probably leads to less discussion, and why you don't see as many gripes about those armies even taking player base size into account.

The 3.0 codex is not bad either for chaos it was after the two that they went downhill hard to the joke they are now
And every new codex they seem to be comparatively weaker compared to SM or eldar
The core models are what 10 years old

The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines. Trying to cover all of the varied forces of Chaos marines(never mind all the non marine Chaos armies) with one book is IMO part of the problem. Unfortunately I suspect that Chaos are stuck in loop here in the real world, where they don't sell enough to get the support and the don't get the support they need to sell.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

Not a bad thing at all and it's certainly better than what we were getting before. That said, we can still be disappointed by the laziness of copy/paste rather than doing the work of actually designing approximately equivalent powers.

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

 Battlesong wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

Not a bad thing at all and it's certainly better than what we were getting before. That said, we can still be disappointed by the laziness of copy/paste rather than doing the work of actually designing approximately equivalent powers.

Which just adds to rules bloat and is something else to complain about. Really a uniform psychic power list across all form of Astartes (Traitor or Loyalist) with *some* unique additions like Interromancy, the Chaos God lores and whatever the Blood Angels and Space Furries actually makes a lot of sense and, though you may call it lazy, is good design.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not only that but upon entering the eye they lose land speeders, whirlwinds, storm shields, decent armour, different land raiders, grav weapons, fancy weapons etc but they do gain autocannons. So all balances out

 Motograter wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not only that but upon entering the eye they lose land speeders, whirlwinds, storm shields, decent armour, different land raiders, grav weapons, fancy weapons etc but they do gain autocannons. So all balances out

Turns out that all of those things are actually quite functional as wards against daemonic influences, and those renegades fell to chaos because they didn't maintain enough in their armories, or left them behind on a deployment. Who knew?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not really, a lot of the CSM range is compatible with the loyalist Marines range.

Especially if one proxies Ravens as nightlords, because your stuff is better than ours we want it

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:
The more recent renegades that are not descended from the traitor legions should really be a supplement for codex Space marines.

They would need a new product line of renegade SM minis to support that approach. The product drives the rules and the fluff. That's why every chapter that turns from the Emperor's light immediately sprouts horns, spikes and extended backpack vents, and starts using Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Not really, a lot of the CSM range is compatible with the loyalist Marines range.

But how would Little Timmy's mommy know which boxes to buy?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

Veil of Time on a Cyclopian Cabal that is joined to a unit of KDK Flesh Hounds would be pretty nasty, especially if another member of the Cabal casts Sanctuary on it! All you need to make it even worse would be Invisibility or Endurance. Still not as bananas as Superfriends or the BarkBarkStar, but probably the closest Chaos can get.

I've noticed that the current plastic CSM are inbetween looking like uncorrupted marines just wearing altered armor, and marines that have actually been twisted by the warp. They really are just generic as gak aren't they?

But honestly, I'm sure it can't be that hard to kitbash that with a loyalist tactical squad, or even just take a loyalist tactical squad and greenstuff/bitz your way out.

And is it just me or is that old plastic kit still actually the most recent infantry release for CSM that isn't monopose?

Raptors/Talons came in the last release, alongside the dinobots.

But you're precisely right, I'm not a fan of the current CSM squad, so have used bits alongside Imperial kits to chaosify my late Heresy 30K/40K army.

There won't be any horns or bunny ears or top knots in any army of mine without good reason!

Not seen it mentioned anywhere but are we not getting squadrons for the Hell brute? Kinda hoped that would be in here.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Raptors/Talons came in the last release, alongside the dinobots.

But you're precisely right, I'm not a fan of the current CSM squad, so have used bits alongside Imperial kits to chaosify my late Heresy 30K/40K army.

There won't be any horns or bunny ears or top knots in any army of mine without good reason!

Ah, the raptors! I forgot about those. I remember when I first laid eyes on them the only word that was in my head was "finally".

That word's going to come back for the Thousand Sons release.

But apparently we don't have anything else coming in the next 8 months or however long it'll take for a CSM update. I imagine they'll be first to be updated, and maybe we'll see plastic havocs, and then something stupid like an armored stegosaurus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and then another 5 years until we see the next kit updated.

For all the folk whining about why chaos players are angry here you go: This the 2nd book for the black crusade
It contains 9 new formations and 2 powerful new Detachments, Death Company Relics, Death Company Tactical Objectives, revised Wargear of Baal section, 3 new Altar of War missions, new datasheets for the Blood Angel Terminator Captain, Death Company Chaplain and updated datasheets of the Assault Squad and Devastator Squad.

Chaos got zero relics, traits or profile updates. Still think traitors hate is good.....

Huh, so they are giving BAs grav cannon Devs and Eviscerators for assault marines?

Not bad.

Unless their Blood Angels/Death Company mega formations are worth a damn, they will still probably be a worse Codex: Space Marines, but that's what happens when you try to chop in a shooting edition.

Initial impressions from Frankie and Reece on signals is good. I also could tell it was good when I seen it.

At this point your army is now extremely powerful due to the deathstars you can make and some really good support formations. The DE, Orks, and IG all need way more than you need even more OP easy I win button formations and psychic powers.

They get kicked almost to the top of the meta and they still whine. Certainly near the top of the mid-tier maybe even as high as Tau.
I actually think the amount of whiny Chaos players is going up the more stuff they get and the stronger they get. I say nerf them so we only have to deal with an bearable low level of droning. It was a neat experiment but we now see first hand why GW doesn't give them stuff. Fact. http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1gTas7OAA#t=9m18s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ymc_5dake0#t=2m19s