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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

I think it's more that if you run a cult army you are more limited in taking them and they are harder for us to use then SM
I am ok with them (will just use my SM cards as a rename is NOT worth the cash and bag space)
But will I USE them I don't know

It's not only not worth paying for the cards, it actively promotes confusion imho.

it was never worth paying for the cards to begin with, regardless of which powers you use. index cards are...pretty affordable comparatively.

For those not following the ForgeWorld Facebook, they made this post last night;

https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/videos/1473976722619603/

Since they're suggesting the use of their models for the Black Crusade does this mean we might be getting an FAQ to allow their use in a Black Crusade Formation? Fingers crossed!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

I think CSM need to be broken up into other codexs

 SirDigby wrote:
For those not following the ForgeWorld Facebook, they made this post last night;

https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/videos/1473976722619603/

Since they're suggesting the use of their models for the Black Crusade does this mean we might be getting an FAQ to allow their use in a Black Crusade Formation? Fingers crossed!

So where do you think I could shoe in a brass scorpion or even some demos pattern laser vindicators? I'm not sure where they fit in the new black legion formations.

Oldmike wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

I think CSM need to be broken up into other codexs

I would totally be in favor of the main CSM codex being just Chaos Undivided Legions and then the Cult Legions getting their own book. Make Khorne Daemonkin cover the World Eaters (this is where Kharn should be, IMO) and other Khorne warbands, Nurgle Daemonkin would be Death Guard and other Nurgle warbands, etc. And if you want to make a big warband combining them all, use the ally matrix.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Requizen wrote:

I am honestly of the opinion that these books are just stopgaps until a major overhaul in 8e. If the 40k releases feel lazy, I'm going to hold my judgement until the new edition comes out and either turns them on their head or resets a lot of the stuff we're seeing right now.

Well, I did ust buy the Imperial Guard book and the Kill Team box this week, so if there's a new edition coming, I expect it to be released next week :-P

At least I paid for the stuff with a pile of retro videogames instead of euros....

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Oddly that same sentiment is the complaint of the chaos players - they haven't read anything original in a fair while. The formations are nice but these are all similar to ones other armies have had, likewise the powers are a literal copy/paste with a rename and the knight rules are too.

It's a decent book nevertheless but it's simply not chaos 3.5, which nothing ever will be,perhaps time people moved on from it though.

I remember reading from a poster on bolter and chainsword that he would not be satisfied unless Chaos is so over the top broken that it can curb stomp both Loyalists and Eldar.

His statement seems to ring true for a lot of chaos players...

Edit: so yeah, they want CSM 3.5 back, in other words. :p

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

The only models with access to an innate 3++ (without additional Psychic power usage) are a limited number of our HQs (requiring purchase of a Sigil of Corruption and Mark of Tzeentch which is 40pts for Sorcerers and Lords. The only other HQ with access to a 3++ is a Dark Apostle with Mark of Tzeentch but at that point you're paying 120 points in total before other upgrades for a slightly more survivable Chaplain) or Crimson Slaughter Possessed (who have a 1/3 chance of getting a temporary 3++ at the start of each turn).

Funnily enough you'll almost never see a Lord or Sorcerer with a 3++ because 1) Khorne Jugger Lords and Nurgle Fisty-Claw Biker Lords are plain better for their cost and 2) Tzeentch Sorcerers are forced to roll 1 of their powers on the worst Psychic Discipline in the game.

I suppose it's half-decent on our 2+ Armour Save units...but of those only Obliterators are seen as half-usable beyond a one shot suicide unit with combi-weapons (our Terminators).
And it's not like any of our power armour units are amazing enough to use the power on, either.

The desire to be far more powerful than the top books is so far from most Chaos players complaints. I'd take a lower power level if it meant the faction was better depicted on the table.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Spoiler:

So at the end of Traitor's Hate, the Blood Angels are calling for aid from the Grey Knights. Perhaps volume three of Black Crusade will include material for the Grey Knights?

Lets hope not as that would mean imperials got two books in a row where chaos only got 1. The black crusade is supposed to be chaos focused yet the imperials are already ahead

People keep going back to the 3.5 Chaos codex as being some monstrosity of overpowered units, but it really wasn't - it just had a couple of powerful combinations and options that weren't normal for the time

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot if they sacrificed barely-touched FA slots, and now we have formations and vehicle squadrons that make that seem like nothing.

If you played with the 3.5 dex now you'd find it mid-teir at best, way less powerful than most of the other books out there but still massively better than what Chaos have now

 Motograter wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Spoiler:

So at the end of Traitor's Hate, the Blood Angels are calling for aid from the Grey Knights. Perhaps volume three of Black Crusade will include material for the Grey Knights?

Lets hope not as that would mean imperials got two books in a row where chaos only got 1. The black crusade is supposed to be chaos focused yet the imperials are already ahead

Maybe they will share a book with some more Chaos stuff.

Charax wrote:
People keep going back to the 3.5 Chaos codex as being some monstrosity of overpowered units, but it really wasn't - it just had a couple of powerful combinations and options that weren't normal for the time

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot if they sacrificed barely-touched FA slots, and now we have formations and vehicle squadrons that make that seem like nothing.

If you played with the 3.5 dex now you'd find it mid-teir at best, way less powerful than most of the other books out there but still massively better than what Chaos have now

This is true, it would be a drop in the pond these days, as the rules have moved on enough to make the abusive combo not so bad, so no cav deamon prince infiltrating and assaulting turn 1, no deamon bomb etc. Etc.

But it would allow TRUE legion and renegade armies, want renegade, take 2 vet skills, no marks and away you go, want deathly silent death guard, take infiltrate and book of nurgle death guard, night Lords with raptors and infiltrate, iron out warriors and tank hunters.

On and on.

Charax wrote:

the most OP thing in the 3.5 'dex was Iron Warriors getting an extra (useful) HS slot

*cough*siren*dreadaxe*daemonprince*cough*

Dreadaxe?

Damn I really love the Heretech Powers. Did anyone say AV15 Landraider? CHOO CHOO Sexual assault train knows no breaks.

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

tneva82 wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

This is also part of the reason (beyond the fact the OP has not been updated in forever) I moved the Blood Angels discussion to a different thread. No way two factions worth of bitching all in one thread can be conducive to a healthy discussion.

tneva82 wrote:

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Chaos-Bizarro-Land: Where access to Psychic Powers that were widely decried as broken or overly powerful when previously released is somehow a bad thing.

IMO, part of what's going on here is that CSM players -- as the fluff would suggest -- are a fairly fractured bunch who don't agree on what CSM need. The lack of consensus is why they seem to always be complaining.

You got the part about complaining right. I have yet to read anything ORIGINAL by any chaos player in the last...Oh 10 years?

Complaining will continue until the codex improves. Deal with it.

Complaining will continue even past that. They are never happy with it.

Yes, just like those SoB players amirite? Even after they release a complete line of plastic sisters they'll still be complaining about not having a supported model line! It's boring to me!

tneva82 wrote:
And why you think I skip like 99% of posts related to chaos? I need to find non-chaos player posting to find something I haven't read already before million times.

Then might I suggest you up that 99% to 100%? Then you could spare yourself the displeasure of reading posts of Chaos players complaining and Chaos players could be spared the displeasure of reading posts of your complaining about their complaining. Win-win!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The only powers really decried as being too powerful were Writhing Worldscape and Electrodisplacement as they allow for Melee Deathstars to break heads turn 1. The rest of the powers ranged between weak to meh to pretty decent.

Yes, Veil of Time is totally weak to meh and not deforming the meta...

Do a lot of units of CSM have access to good saves where Veil of Time becomes worth it? Definitely there is an easy way to get them on C:SM characters with stuff like Storm Shields, but I am not familiar enough with CSM to know if they have the same availability.

I usually run the previously mentioned Tzeentch marked 3+/3++ sorcerer (since I'm one of the few who actually still run Thousand Sons) who runs around with his Thousand Sons bodyguard in a rhino. It certainly would let one of the worst units in the dex cope with their biggest threat (poor ap small arms) much better without being horrendously strong given how ridiculously easy they get gunned down at the moment.

If you really wanted to cheese things out, you can get a 2+/3++ tzeentch lord on a jetbike with Fist/claw out of the Crimson Slaughter dex (or one with a 3+/3++ and eternal warrior out of black legion) and jam him out the front to tank most stuff. You can get Tzeentch termies or Obliterators to a 2+/3++ pretty easily if you score sanctuary (or cursed earth for the Obliterators so they don't have to take dangerous terrain tests), possessed / warp talons / Obliterators can all get a 2++ with cursed earth and grimoure from Daemon Allies, but now you've devoted enough resources to have the entire list revolve around these units. Oh, chuck KDK hounds/'letters/'crushers in there as well as being able to get a 2++ with cursed earth and grimoure, but now you're even deeper into the hole for something that you've got no way to guarantee that you get the powers that you need.

I think that's about it for CSM as their only source of 2+ Armour is a single relic in Crimson Slaughter, the horrendously overcosted warpsmith, Terminator Armour on lords or Sorcs (I don't think a dark apostle even has the option to take termie armour) or a unit of Terminators / Obliterators / Mutilators.

Tzeentch Warp Talons are about the only thing with promise for a reroll save based deathstar since everything else is too slow or lacks a natural invulnerable save. Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together, you might make that work.

 Drasius wrote:
Unless you just use the Cabal and just keep lumping independent characters together

A common trick, but makes Thousand Sons players very happy.

Access to these powers is great. It really moved my interest in playing my army up again.