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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
"Your guns being physically incapable of hurting my units is just as bad as I have it because my guns are overkill" is a rather...unique argument...

Anti-Infantry is wasted against an Imperial Knight Army in the same way Anti-Tank is wasted against horde armies. Look at the cost of imperial heavy weapons, most of which are tailored against tanks. Not only are they expensive but make the unit super inefficient at killing horde armies.

It's basically the same thing outside of removing two Gaunts a turn with Lascannons.

I get that to some degree, but there's a difference between a weapon being overkill and being totally useless. At the same time, even amongst Horde armies, there are typically good targets for such weapons, I can't recall a horde army that didn't have some good target for a Lascannon, be it the Hive Tyrant leading the Gaunt swarm, a Killa Kan squad running with the Green Tide, or some other such thing, they never are completely devoid of targets.

TBH I've never fought an all IK list. I've fought a single IK list, and it didn't prove scary in any way. I have every reason to dislike IK's as a guard player since they can D my vehicles to death and stomp/blow up my infantry pretty handily, but they don't worry me. In fact I don't even think a full IK list would worry me too much. If a TAC army is built correctly, then it will be a challenge, but you should still be competitive against knights, that's why it's called a TAC army. You can take all comers. I know with my TAC lists I generally have enough str 10 and 9 ordnance, melta, etc.. to deal with a lot of vehicle spam, or enough bodies to tie them up until the emperor wakes up. Just my two cents.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
TBH I've never fought an all IK list. I've fought a single IK list, and it didn't prove scary in any way. I have every reason to dislike IK's as a guard player since they can D my vehicles to death and stomp/blow up my infantry pretty handily, but they don't worry me. In fact I don't even think a full IK list would worry me too much. If a TAC army is built correctly, then it will be a challenge, but you should still be competitive against knights, that's why it's called a TAC army. You can take all comers. I know with my TAC lists I generally have enough str 10 and 9 ordnance, melta, etc.. to deal with a lot of vehicle spam, or enough bodies to tie them up until the emperor wakes up. Just my two cents.

The problem is that, with the extreme that IK's occupy of being nothing but AV13 superheavy walker units, many factions aren't capable of building a TAC army that can successfully deal with Knights and remain "TAC". Knights can deal with bodies trying to tie them up quite well through Stomps and blast weapons, especially most IG units, and likewise packing enough AT to deal with 30HP's worth of AV13 4++ shielded walkers is difficult while trying to remain "TAC", especially if you're relying on something other than highly variable short range suicide melta.

The Leman Russ tank company armies have always had this issue, but crucially lacked mobility and close combat capability. IK's can do it all.

Played against my first Knight on Saturday. Managed to get a charge onto it with my Leviathan Dread that had a siege drill. Managed to drop it in one round fortunately. But then again, it's anti armor based, nearly as many points or more with pod.

It's not surprising that the leviathan dread can take it out easily.

agreed, if you can't handle a Knight you can't handle a lemen russ or a land raider either. what if I took a space marine armored task force?

What!? No. There are plenty of ways to handle a Russ or a Land Raider that would be ineffective against a knight. Not to mention that the damage output of your average LR is laughable and you can pretty much ignore both the Russ and the LR and there's not much of a penalty to that. Plus the knight has the D Stomp, can ignore most of the damage results AND has the ion shield. Beyond the fact that all three have Hull Points, there's almost no basis for comparison between those units. Go ahead and ignore that Knight and see how long it takes you to realize you can't ignore it ...

I don't necessarily think Knights are OP when taken alone or in pairs. It's when you're running something like Orks (who would struggle to deal with a single Knight), and you run into an Ad Lance that they start to feel over the top. I don't think that's a necessarily a fault of the Knight though, so much as it is the rules in general. With the game becoming increasingly more "Paper/rock/scissors" (as others have pointed out) since 6th ed, certain lists are always going to struggle against other lists. Knights are just one of those units that really makes that clear. There are some armies that just don't have the tools to face them.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
TBH I've never fought an all IK list. I've fought a single IK list, and it didn't prove scary in any way. I have every reason to dislike IK's as a guard player since they can D my vehicles to death and stomp/blow up my infantry pretty handily, but they don't worry me. In fact I don't even think a full IK list would worry me too much. If a TAC army is built correctly, then it will be a challenge, but you should still be competitive against knights, that's why it's called a TAC army. You can take all comers. I know with my TAC lists I generally have enough str 10 and 9 ordnance, melta, etc.. to deal with a lot of vehicle spam, or enough bodies to tie them up until the emperor wakes up. Just my two cents.

The problem is that, with the extreme that IK's occupy of being nothing but AV13 superheavy walker units, many factions aren't capable of building a TAC army that can successfully deal with Knights and remain "TAC". Knights can deal with bodies trying to tie them up quite well through Stomps and blast weapons, especially most IG units, and likewise packing enough AT to deal with 30HP's worth of AV13 4++ shielded walkers is difficult while trying to remain "TAC", especially if you're relying on something other than highly variable short range suicide melta.

The Leman Russ tank company armies have always had this issue, but crucially lacked mobility and close combat capability. IK's can do it all.

ten points of a melta gun or melta bomb has a small chance to drop d3 hp off a IK.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
TBH I've never fought an all IK list. I've fought a single IK list, and it didn't prove scary in any way. I have every reason to dislike IK's as a guard player since they can D my vehicles to death and stomp/blow up my infantry pretty handily, but they don't worry me. In fact I don't even think a full IK list would worry me too much. If a TAC army is built correctly, then it will be a challenge, but you should still be competitive against knights, that's why it's called a TAC army. You can take all comers. I know with my TAC lists I generally have enough str 10 and 9 ordnance, melta, etc.. to deal with a lot of vehicle spam, or enough bodies to tie them up until the emperor wakes up. Just my two cents.

The problem is that, with the extreme that IK's occupy of being nothing but AV13 superheavy walker units, many factions aren't capable of building a TAC army that can successfully deal with Knights and remain "TAC". Knights can deal with bodies trying to tie them up quite well through Stomps and blast weapons, especially most IG units, and likewise packing enough AT to deal with 30HP's worth of AV13 4++ shielded walkers is difficult while trying to remain "TAC", especially if you're relying on something other than highly variable short range suicide melta.

The Leman Russ tank company armies have always had this issue, but crucially lacked mobility and close combat capability. IK's can do it all.

ten points of a melta gun or melta bomb has a small chance to drop d3 hp off a IK.

It's not that small. 12% is pretty good to knock off an average of half its hull points.

Knights aren't really all that scary.
The guns are average, armour isn't great but the aren't bad in CC.

I generally run knights in 30k and they get torn to shreds pretty quickly.

The only one I've had a complaint about is the Atrapos.
And that's mainly due to rolling a 6 2 turns in a row.
And vortex blasts really aren't fun for anyone.

But none the less, most knights are levelled easily.
In 30k your kitted to nail Spartans, which seem a damn site harder to remove.

But as said, there's an issue somewhere if you can't kill a single knight.



I've never had a complaint about my lancer anyway, and that's what I run most games.
While it is highly destructive in CC, its mainly a fire magnet.

Tycho wrote:

agreed, if you can't handle a Knight you can't handle a lemen russ or a land raider either. what if I took a space marine armored task force?

What!? No. There are plenty of ways to handle a Russ or a Land Raider that would be ineffective against a knight. Not to mention that the damage output of your average LR is laughable and you can pretty much ignore both the Russ and the LR and there's not much of a penalty to that. Plus the knight has the D Stomp, can ignore most of the damage results AND has the ion shield. Beyond the fact that all three have Hull Points, there's almost no basis for comparison between those units. Go ahead and ignore that Knight and see how long it takes you to realize you can't ignore it ...

I don't necessarily think Knights are OP when taken alone or in pairs. It's when you're running something like Orks (who would struggle to deal with a single Knight), and you run into an Ad Lance that they start to feel over the top. I don't think that's a necessarily a fault of the Knight though, so much as it is the rules in general. With the game becoming increasingly more "Paper/rock/scissors" (as others have pointed out) since 6th ed, certain lists are always going to struggle against other lists. Knights are just one of those units that really makes that clear. There are some armies that just don't have the tools to face them.

How do you figure? You're having to rely on stripping HP most of the time anyway and Knights don't magically stop that outside the Shield that might not necessarily be on the correct side.

And they're 350 points for 6 HP. If you can deal with a Land Raiders you can deal with a Knight.

BrianDavion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

sure but what about IG armor lists, or space marine armored might lists? knights are far from the only army capable of deploying a list comprising of pure armor.

...Expensive, underarmoured vehicles, without the 4++, with AV 10-11 on some facings, that are weak in close combat?

A full-tank list from elsewhere is annoying, yes, but is in a very different league on the skew front than an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tycho wrote:

agreed, if you can't handle a Knight you can't handle a lemen russ or a land raider either. what if I took a space marine armored task force?

What!? No. There are plenty of ways to handle a Russ or a Land Raider that would be ineffective against a knight. Not to mention that the damage output of your average LR is laughable and you can pretty much ignore both the Russ and the LR and there's not much of a penalty to that. Plus the knight has the D Stomp, can ignore most of the damage results AND has the ion shield. Beyond the fact that all three have Hull Points, there's almost no basis for comparison between those units. Go ahead and ignore that Knight and see how long it takes you to realize you can't ignore it ...

I don't necessarily think Knights are OP when taken alone or in pairs. It's when you're running something like Orks (who would struggle to deal with a single Knight), and you run into an Ad Lance that they start to feel over the top. I don't think that's a necessarily a fault of the Knight though, so much as it is the rules in general. With the game becoming increasingly more "Paper/rock/scissors" (as others have pointed out) since 6th ed, certain lists are always going to struggle against other lists. Knights are just one of those units that really makes that clear. There are some armies that just don't have the tools to face them.

How do you figure? You're having to rely on stripping HP most of the time anyway and Knights don't magically stop that outside the Shield that might not necessarily be on the correct side.

And they're 350 points for 6 HP. If you can deal with a Land Raiders you can deal with a Knight.

Again. A Knight.

And if you're comparing this to a hypothetical list consisting entirely of Land Raiders I'd have to ask when the last time you saw a Land Raider do enough damage to justify trying to build a list solely out of their shooting was.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
An entire army of rock makes every scissors useless.

This is the very important bit so please focus on this part.
---Its not fun to play a game where half your army is useless against everything in your opponent's army list---

So...basically any army that includes a SHW or GC. Especially if they include a GC, since they can largely ignore most weaponry, between absurdly high Toughness, Armor/Invulnerable Saves, and baseline FNP. If SHW had the ability to mitigate damage the way a GC can, the hatred toward them would be more deserved.

Here's the thing, people talk about their TAC armies not being able to deal with a SHW like a Knight. But honestly, how can one say they are running a TAC list without including anti-armor?

...A TAC list can handle A Knight just fine, it's when the all-Knights army shows up the problems start.

sure but what about IG armor lists, or space marine armored might lists? knights are far from the only army capable of deploying a list comprising of pure armor.

...Expensive, underarmoured vehicles, without the 4++, with AV 10-11 on some facings, that are weak in close combat?

A full-tank list from elsewhere is annoying, yes, but is in a very different league on the skew front than an Imperial Knight.

The AV12 of a Knight is pretty much just as weak as the AV11 of the sides of those other vehicles with the weapons you were planning to use. Bait the shield and kill it quickly.

Seriously if you can't deal with Knights there is a minor amount of L2P here, and you know how much I hate saying that.

The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. A Russ also isnt going to charge *you*. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

1. Does that really matter with the new Grenade change?
2. What really gets into melee that doesn't have bigger weapons than S6?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

1. Does that really matter with the new Grenade change?
2. What really gets into melee that doesn't have bigger weapons than S6?

It's less if an issue with the grenade change, but still relevant. An S8 powerfist from a tac sergeant has a not inconsiderable chance of killing a Leman Russ right off the charge, whereas against a Knight he may average 1 HP every two turns or so, and all those S4 attacks from the basic Tacs can kill a Russ. A full Tac squad with a powerfist is averaging 3.6 HP's against a Russ tank even without Krak Grenades (resulting in a kill), and should have no difficulty getting to grips with the slow tank and are at no risk of being hit back, whereas that same squad will inflict an average of 0.5HP's charging a Knight as great risk of annihilation and if the Knight doesnt want to be in CC it can avoid it relatively easily.

The AV12 of a Knight is pretty much just as weak as the AV11 of the sides of those other vehicles with the weapons you were planning to use. Bait the shield and kill it quickly.

Seriously if you can't deal with Knights there is a minor amount of L2P here, and you know how much I hate saying that.

Right ... "Bait the shield" .... So to do that I need a minimum of two equally powerful threats in place and ready to go on the same turn. If you're trying to drop it in one round you'll need more than two. That can be challenging but not overly so. The next issue is that you need those units to survive and keep up with the Knight. Most armies aren't dropping it with one or two units in one turn and whatever the Knight hits on its turn will almost certainly die. Whether from the guns, the D stomp or CC. Then you have to keep up with the thing as Knights are incredibly fast. Next you have to be able to deal with the fact that, as a SH walker it ignores the Vehicle damage table. So at this point in the story, you've dedicated 2-4 units to kill it, at least half of those died in response and now it's simply walking away from the other threats. All while continuing to hammer everything else totally unabated. That's ONE Knight - which most here admit isn't that big a problem. Now go back and repeat all of that but instead of one Knight, your opponent brought 3-5. Good luck ...

Compare that to a Russ where I can have someone march up to the rear armor, smack it with a PF and drop it in a turn. All the while the Russ is not doing anywhere near the damage the Knight is. If you're looking at this from a strict "Hull point stripping" point of view, you're really missing what makes Knights scary. Again, the key word "Knights". I will agree that one Knight isn't so bad. Scary, and very tough, but not overly powerful.

Aye, one Knight is generally fine, it's when there's a gaggle of them that they become odious

so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

Tycho wrote:

The AV12 of a Knight is pretty much just as weak as the AV11 of the sides of those other vehicles with the weapons you were planning to use. Bait the shield and kill it quickly.

Seriously if you can't deal with Knights there is a minor amount of L2P here, and you know how much I hate saying that.

Compare that to a Russ where I can have someone march up to the FRONT armor, smack it with a PF and drop it in a turn. All the while the Russ is not doing anywhere near the damage the Knight is. If you're looking at this from a strict "Hull point stripping" point of view, you're really missing what makes Knights scary. Again, the key word "Knights". I will agree that one Knight isn't so bad. Scary, and very tough, but not overly powerful.

Fixed that for you.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

People are spoiled by GMCs, whose demise can't be reasonably accelerated in any way.

so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

No one has even implied that. Where are you getting that from? At least in my case, I was simply pointing out that dropping a Knight is WAY different than dropping a Russ. They just aren't comparable. No, the fact that you can't "one shot it" doesn't make it bad. As I said, one Knight isn't terrible.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

1. Does that really matter with the new Grenade change?
2. What really gets into melee that doesn't have bigger weapons than S6?

It's less if an issue with the grenade change, but still relevant. An S8 powerfist from a tac sergeant has a not inconsiderable chance of killing a Leman Russ right off the charge, whereas against a Knight he may average 1 HP every two turns or so, and all those S4 attacks from the basic Tacs can kill a Russ. A full Tac squad with a powerfist is averaging 3.6 HP's against a Russ tank even without Krak Grenades (resulting in a kill), and should have no difficulty getting to grips with the slow tank and are at no risk of being hit back, whereas that same squad will inflict an average of 0.5HP's charging a Knight as great risk of annihilation and if the Knight doesnt want to be in CC it can avoid it relatively easily.

If a Tactical Sergeant managed to get THAT close with a Power Fist you honestly deserve the popped Russ. End of discussion. Melee upgrades are gak on them.
As well, the Knight is around 350 points. Of course they're inflicting less HP damage because it's more durable. We're not talking about a Knight the price of a Russ.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

THANK YOU.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

1. Does that really matter with the new Grenade change?
2. What really gets into melee that doesn't have bigger weapons than S6?

It's less if an issue with the grenade change, but still relevant. An S8 powerfist from a tac sergeant has a not inconsiderable chance of killing a Leman Russ right off the charge, whereas against a Knight he may average 1 HP every two turns or so, and all those S4 attacks from the basic Tacs can kill a Russ. A full Tac squad with a powerfist is averaging 3.6 HP's against a Russ tank even without Krak Grenades (resulting in a kill), and should have no difficulty getting to grips with the slow tank and are at no risk of being hit back, whereas that same squad will inflict an average of 0.5HP's charging a Knight as great risk of annihilation and if the Knight doesnt want to be in CC it can avoid it relatively easily.

If a Tactical Sergeant managed to get THAT close with a Power Fist you honestly deserve the popped Russ. End of discussion. Melee upgrades are gak on them.

Setting aside the ability of SM's to deliver such units next to a Russ on turn 1...the point was that things like Russ tanks are hideously vulnerable even to units which are relatively poor at CC, Knights are not.

As well, the Knight is around 350 points. Of course they're inflicting less HP damage because it's more durable. We're not talking about a Knight the price of a Russ.

Even accounting for the difference in cost the gap in capability here is huge. If we toss twice or three times as many Tac marines in, the Knight will still probably ultimately destroy all of thosee units between its D attacks and Stomps, and be battle capable afterward, while matching the firepower of an equal number of points in Russ tanks.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

The point was that other units used in comparison are dramatically easier to deal with using a much wider array of units. A charging tac squad will kill a Russ tank no problem off a charge with no risk to themselves whereas against a Knight that same unit, even with twice the numbers or more, is probably going to whiff entirely and get obliterated for the effort.

Point for point, the Knight has dramatically greater resilience, mobility, and dramatically more CC capability, with equal firepower, relative so something like a Russ tank, and the threat presented by multiple Knights is not something every army is equipped to deal with.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. A Russ also isnt going to charge *you*. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

I can't believe we need to cover the fact that equal points of Knights are categorically superior to Leman Russes in every single way one could possibly imagine within the 40k game context.

But as we're going down that road, how about a few words on Objectives and Scoring and Kill Points... Knights are better at ALL of those things, too...

The only thing that Russes are better at?

Dying.

Just like Cybermen vs Daleks.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. A Russ also isnt going to charge *you*. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

I can't believe we need to cover the fact that equal points of Knights are categorically superior to Leman Russes in every single way one could possibly imagine within the 40k game context.

But as we're going down that road, how about a few words on Objectives and Scoring and Kill Points... Knights are better at ALL of those things, too...

The only thing that Russes are better at?

Dying.

Just like Cybermen vs Daleks.

Russes can squeeze out an extra pieplate per 450 pts. Russes also have access to more ignores cover weaponry. They can also throw more natively AP 2 fire down the field. All pretty weak, but they're there. Russes are more durable per point against haywire attacks.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The big distinction with Knights is that, unlike say, a Leman Russ company, you dont get to auto hit AV10 (or at best 11 on a couple models) in close combat, but rather AV13, and the Knight hits back like a Truck while the Russ just stands there and takes it passively and is hit by everything automatically on 3's. Likewise, a Russ cant exactly move much of anywhere, a Knight can potentially travel 4x as fast as a Russ in a single turn, and is much easier to keep just that frontal arc toward thr enemy barring DS units or the like. Land Raiders dont have the CC armor vulnerability and can move faster, but otherwise suffer all the same downsides.

Knights are a very different beast to handle than tanks are.

1. Does that really matter with the new Grenade change?
2. What really gets into melee that doesn't have bigger weapons than S6?

It's less if an issue with the grenade change, but still relevant. An S8 powerfist from a tac sergeant has a not inconsiderable chance of killing a Leman Russ right off the charge, whereas against a Knight he may average 1 HP every two turns or so, and all those S4 attacks from the basic Tacs can kill a Russ. A full Tac squad with a powerfist is averaging 3.6 HP's against a Russ tank even without Krak Grenades (resulting in a kill), and should have no difficulty getting to grips with the slow tank and are at no risk of being hit back, whereas that same squad will inflict an average of 0.5HP's charging a Knight as great risk of annihilation and if the Knight doesnt want to be in CC it can avoid it relatively easily.

If a Tactical Sergeant managed to get THAT close with a Power Fist you honestly deserve the popped Russ. End of discussion. Melee upgrades are gak on them.

Setting aside the ability of SM's to deliver such units next to a Russ on turn 1...the point was that things like Russ tanks are hideously vulnerable even to units which are relatively poor at CC, Knights are not.

As well, the Knight is around 350 points. Of course they're inflicting less HP damage because it's more durable. We're not talking about a Knight the price of a Russ.

Even accounting for the difference in cost the gap in capability here is huge. If we toss twice or three times as many Tac marines in, the Knight will still probably ultimately destroy all of thosee units between its D attacks and Stomps, and be battle capable afterward, while matching the firepower of an equal number of points in Russ tanks.

BrianDavion wrote:
so basicly because you can't one shot a 400 point knight with a unit that costs maybe 150 points, it's bad?

The point was that other units used in comparison are dramatically easier to deal with using a much wider array of units. A charging tac squad will kill a Russ tank no problem off a charge with no risk to themselves whereas against a Knight that same unit, even with twice the numbers or more, is probably going to whiff entirely and get obliterated for the effort.

Point for point, the Knight has dramatically greater resilience, mobility, and dramatically more CC capability, with equal firepower, relative so something like a Russ tank, and the threat presented by multiple Knights is not something every army is equipped to deal with.

1. Marines can't charge after getting out of a pod. So the Russ aims and gets half its points back? Even then, Russes aren't known for being good. Plus let us look at Tactical Marines in your situation realistically. You're either running them in a 5 man squad and therefore even the Punisher (one of the better ones) has a decent chance of popping them by itself (it kills 3 Marines on average maybe without upgrades) or they're being in a 10 man squad to hide your Power Fist you wanted for whatever and therefore the Executioner (one of the better ones) can a good chance of hitting the only important members of the squad. Now a squad of Sternguard popping out of a pod is a different story, but you're spending easily more than a Russ to pop it.
2. Russes are still garbage for the points, so the Imperial Knight is more realistically costed than the Russes. That said, it is still only 6HP to strip.
3. And not every army can fight summoning lists as they're not equipped to deal with it nor are all armies able to fight Green Tide as not all lists are equipped to handle it. See how this goes? You can't fight every list at once; you can only try to prepare for the extremes each time.

Russes are trash for the points, IKs are adequate for the points.

1. Marines can't charge after getting out of a pod. So the Russ aims and gets half its points back? Even then, Russes aren't known for being good. Plus let us look at Tactical Marines in your situation realistically. You're either running them in a 5 man squad and therefore even the Punisher (one of the better ones) has a decent chance of popping them by itself (it kills 3 Marines on average maybe without upgrades) or they're being in a 10 man squad to hide your Power Fist you wanted for whatever and therefore the Executioner (one of the better ones) can a good chance of hitting the only important members of the squad. Now a squad of Sternguard popping out of a pod is a different story, but you're spending easily more than a Russ to pop it.

The point is, that's ONE squad of Marines. Yes, the Russ might take them out. Chances are it won't, and that one squad has a real good chance of killing the Russ. You need a minimum of two squads just to get past the shield of the Knight, and the Knight WILL kill the Marines.

2. Russes are still garbage for the points, so the Imperial Knight is more realistically costed than the Russes. That said, it is still only 6HP to strip.

Yes. "only" 6 HP ... once you get past the shield, the D weapons, the incoming fire, the CC attacks and the speed of the Knight ... It seems like you're deliberately ignoring the things that really make Knights tough ... Here's a hint - It's NOT the Hull Points.

3. And not every army can fight summoning lists as they're not equipped to deal with it nor are all armies able to fight Green Tide as not all lists are equipped to handle it. See how this goes? You can't fight every list at once; you can only try to prepare for the extremes each time.

This part's true to an extant. Like I said before, 40K really has become paper/rock/scissors and few other things make that more clear than an all Knight army. I really don't think the true TAC list still exists in 40K anymore. That said, you will still have a chance (admittedly a very slim chance) of beating a horde or summoning army that you aren't equipped to handle. If you aren't set up to face multiple Knights, you have ZERO shot. If you ARE set up to face multiple Knights, you don't have much of shot against the other "power" lists. They just really exploit that flaw in the current design philosophy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Marines can't charge after getting out of a pod. So the Russ aims and gets half its points back?

"Yes...6HP woth high enough frontal AV to be immune or highly resistant to most S based HP stripping weapons with a like 4++ that doesnt have to worry about being shaken, stunned, losing weapons, getting autohit on rear armor on 3's etc. "

And still require a third of the firepower compared to Riptide. All for double the cost! What a deal!