Daemon Primarch Magnus/Wrath of Magnus/Traitor Legions Codex Supplement/Thousand Sons

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Ghaz**

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?

They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.

**Galef**

Whitebeard wrote:
So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?

Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)

VeteranNoob wrote:
When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies

Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?

SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.

-

**Hulksmash**

Are the daemon princes in the formations CSM or codex daemons?

**Kharne the Befriender**

Ghaz wrote:
Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?

They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.

But would it be to far fetched to use them as CCW in 40k? Or should I just stick with the chainswords?

**Matt.Kingsley**

Theoretically, if one was unable to fit all Blue Horrors within 6" of the unit, would the excess be removed as casualties, or would they just not deploy?

If the former, would this cause Brimstone Horrors to spawn?

**Galef**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Theoretically, if one was unable to fit all Blue Horrors within 6" of the unit, would the excess be removed as casualties, or would they just not deploy?

If the former, would this cause Brimstone Horrors to spawn?

Oh, snap! Good question

**VeteranNoob**

Galef wrote:
Whitebeard wrote:
So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?

Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)

VeteranNoob wrote:
When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies

Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?

SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.

-

The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."

**Red Corsair**

Hulksmash wrote:
Are the daemon princes in the formations CSM or codex daemons?

I am no expert but thousand sons are from CSM so I would assume you field any unit available in CSM, from that book and if it only exists elsewhere you would then look elsewhere but hopefully the WoM sheds some light on it. If not, I would be fine with it either way my opponent wanted so long as they were consistent.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VeteranNoob wrote:
Galef wrote:
Whitebeard wrote:
So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?

Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)

VeteranNoob wrote:
When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies

Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?

SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.

-

The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."

That can't be all of it, I would assume it gets specific and tells you when where and how. That specificity is the key point.

**Ghaz**

Just a heads up from Warhammer TV...

**Red_Drake**

Red Corsair wrote:
VeteranNoob wrote:
Galef wrote:
Whitebeard wrote:
So should I be picking up a bunch of blue horrors and brimstone models?

Yes, but good luck, as GW does not yet sell either in stand-alone kits. You can get 3 Blue Horrors in the Tz Chariot box, or 4 Blues from the Silver Tower boxed game, which also include 4 Brimstone horrors. eBay currently does not have any for sale (I've been checking)

VeteranNoob wrote:
When a Pink dies you set up 2 blues at the end of that phase (so they can't act in that phase. If there is already a unit of blues within 6" of the dying pinks, the 2 models/pinks go there. Otherwise, even if the whole unit of pinks is destroyed, excluding demonic instability, the last pink to be removed from the table (so controlling picks which pink to pick up last) is the point where 6" of this last horror (still 2blues/pink) so that this new unit of blues is entirely within the 6" bubble, essentially, of that last pink. Same with brimmies

Agreed. It does deem to imply that only 1 thing stops splitting and that is if Instability removes the unit. Removing the unit in ANY other way still produces blue/brimstone Horrors.
Now a good question is whether the reference to Instability is specifically the double 6s, or if any failed check that is high enough to remove the last few models in the unit?

SIde note, if you do remove all models in the unit, you do not wait until the end of the phase to place the new unit. They are immediately placed. So if you can kill a whole unit in one go, you can then target the unit created in the same phase.

-

The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."
That can't be all of it, I would assume it gets specific and tells you when where and how. That specificity is the key point.

"Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."

**Galef**

VeteranNoob wrote:

The language in splitting I'll type exactly: "If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the slain Horrors will split and creat Blue Horrors at the end of that phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks)."

And the rule goes on to say "If a rule causes the whole unit to be removed at once (excluding Instability), you can IMMEDIATELY create a units of Blue Horrors, just before removing the LAST model from the Pink horror unit."

So in any case in which the unit is removed (Instability is the only exception noted), you do not wait until the end of the phase, you do it immediately, and 6" from the last Horror removed. The reference to the "last horror" has to mean any time the unit is removed, not just rules that take out the whole squad. There has to be a "last model" to measure too.
So if you shoot down all 11 horrors in a single phase, 22 Blue horrors are created within 6" of the last model. Immediately, not at the end of the phase

-

**VeteranNoob**

@Hulk DP are entries in CSM TS Grand Cove and demons Pandemoniad.
GC: War Cabal, Sekhment conclave, reharti war sect, lord of the legion, war coven

demons: Lords of Pandemonium

**Red_Drake**

VeteranNoob, is Magnus purely a CSM lord of war? or can be taken as a Lord of War choice in daemon armies as well?

**Cephalobeard**

Red_Drake wrote:
VeteranNoob, is Magnus purely a CSM lord of war? or can be taken as a Lord of War choice in daemon armies as well?

This is important to me.

**JimOnMars**

Galef wrote:
I think the best way to do Pink/Blue horrors is to make half of them mostly Pink with some blue, and the other half mostly Blue with some Pink. that way you'd only need as many models as you need Blue Horrors.

What I might try (if I played daemons) is installing 3 blue LEDs in the bases with a watch battery. If they turn blue, just switch them on!

I will still need a ton more of them though...

**Roknar**

@VeteranNoob:
Are terminator and/or rubrics replacements for normal termies /TSons? Like cataphractii for loyalists.
I'm asking because that would allow us to use scarab occult in a terminator annihilation force.

**VeteranNoob**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Red_Drake wrote:
VeteranNoob, is Magnus purely a CSM lord of war? or can be taken as a Lord of War choice in daemon armies as well?

This is important to me.

he's listed in the intro (pg 8) as a new datasheet entry for CSM codex. LoW. He is not in the Demon Pandemoniad from Warzone Fenris. That's all I got for you. I'm building a SCM TS army and plan to eventually ally in some cute, cuddly Tz demons for fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JimOnMars wrote:
Galef wrote:
I think the best way to do Pink/Blue horrors is to make half of them mostly Pink with some blue, and the other half mostly Blue with some Pink. that way you'd only need as many models as you need Blue Horrors.

What I might try (if I played daemons) is installing 3 blue LEDs in the bases with a watch battery. If they turn blue, just switch them on!

I will still need a ton more of them though...

In addition to adding Blue or Brimstone horror models, that would be fething cool

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:
@VeteranNoob:
Are terminator and/or rubrics replacements for normal termies /TSons? Like cataphractii for loyalists.
I'm asking because that would allow us to use scarab occult in a terminator annihilation force.

Try to answer as best I can. All the TS stuff is new addition to CSM. Ahriman and Rubrics replace the CSM codex entries. Does that help?

**TheDraconicLord**

Ghaz wrote:
Just a heads up from Warhammer TV...

The hero we deserve

**Hulksmash**

VeteranNoob wrote:
@Hulk DP are entries in CSM TS Grand Cove and demons Pandemoniad.
GC: War Cabal, Sekhment conclave, reharti war sect, lord of the legion, war coven

demons: Lords of Pandemonium

I guess I can just check the Faction icon at the top of the sheets but based on what you're saying it's the CSM DP's outside of any daemon formations specific to that faction. Sounds good. I prefer the CSM variant.

Do we still have to pick one power from our marked discipline or did they do away with that?

**VeteranNoob**

If we're building a CSM TS army we would pull from DP in CSM codex at this point for the GC.
from that pic I took that circulated and Atia posted on her blog, the DP for this TS detachment would need to take the demon of Tz, and mark of tz if possible, and could elect to choose all his powers from the new expanded Lore of tzeentch (primaris +6) if he so desired.
Furthermore, as he already has VotLW *if* he is affected by a blessing his invuln save is improved by 1 until the start of our next psy phase. He would reroll failed to-hits vs. SW every round of close combat, though SW gain hatred (TS). He could take from the TS 6 artefacts.

**Skerr**

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Ghaz wrote:
Kharne the Befriender wrote:
I was just looking at the sprues for the Tzaangors and they seem to have shields, is there a specific entry stating they can take shields? Are the shields base wargear? Do they count as Close Combat Weapons?

They're most likely there for use in Age of Sigmar and not 40K.

But would it be to far fetched to use them as CCW in 40k? Or should I just stick with the chainswords?

Either or looks cool actually and appropriate.

**Cephalobeard**

Was able to find this.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Red_Drake wrote:
"Split: If a friendly unit of Pink Horrors suffers any casualities, the salin Horrors will split and create Blue Horrors at the end of that Phase (after all other units have performed their actions and made their attacks).
Two Blue Horrors are created for each slain Pink Horror- if there is allready a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6" of the Ping Horrors, add the newly created Blue Horrors to that unit, otherwise set them up as a new unit within 6" of the unit of Pink Horrors.
If a rule causes a Whole unit of Pink Horrors to be Removed at once (excluding Daemonic Instability), you can immediatly create a unit of Blue Horrors, just before removing the last model from the Pink Horrors unit. The unit of Blue Horrors has to models for each model in the unit of Pink Horrors at the point at which it is removed, and must be set up with all models within 6" of the last model from the Pink Horror unit."

Ok, if this is the exact wording then it becomes near impossible to run out of room to place the models as they don't need to be within 6", the unit they for does.

Which also means you could daisy chain Blue/Brimstone horrors across the board, which is dumb.

"You killed 10 horrors in your unit with the Herald with the Exalted Locus this shooting phase. I now get to create a unit of 40 Blue Horrors. Oh look I now have a sizable number of blue horrors in your deployment zone, even though the pink horrors were still in mine."

**Trasvi**

Galef wrote:
Trasvi wrote:
Blue Horrors are 1-10 = 1 WC, 11-20 = 2 WC.

I haven't seen a screenshot of the Brimstone horrors, but I'm assuming they're S/T 1, 2W.

So assuming you take a standard unit of 11 horrors for 99 points, plus a herald with the double splits thing...
11 horrors => 44 blue horrors => 88 brimstone horrors. 143 wounds (231 if you're facing Dark Eldar who can't ID T1) and up to 44 warp charge... for 99 points.

Potential downside -> giving up kill points. Upsides -> so so many.

A couple issue with the math here. It's hard to judge how many WCs you can get because models that are Split MUST join a unit that is within 6" unless a unit is not in range, then and only then can you make a new unit. So at most, a unit of 11 horrors would only make 1 extra unit per turn, since they cannot move away unit their movement phase or with clever removing of casualties (which the attacking player has more control over anyway)
You have to "split" them over multiple turns in order to make that many new units. Also, You can't have all the WC at once. The 2WC from the original 11 Horrors goes away once the unit dies

The best case scenario for the Daemon play in the first turn is to have 3 Pinkes get killed while in a unit with the Loci, creating 12 Blues. Now they have 1WC from the remaining 8 Pinks and 2WC from the new unit of 12 Blues. That is only 1 more than they started with. Hardly game breaking. If you manage to kill a lot of Pinkies, than you make a single large unit of Blue. If you kill ALL the Pink in that turn, the unit of 22 Blues only generates 2 WC, just like the staring 11 Pinks

Even Killing Pinks in multiple phases will typically only creates 1 unit of Blues. For Example: You use Psychic Shriek to kill some, a new unit is made within 6".
In your shooting phase you kill some more Pinks. Guess what? the unit of Blues you created before is still within 6", so new models add to that unit.
Now you assault the Pinks. Unless the Daemon player can remove casualties in a way that makes the Pink & Blue units more than 6" away, they won't be able to create a new unit until YOUR new turn (with some exceptions like perils, dangerous terrain, etc).

The Split rule is pretty amazing, but it is not possible to make 90 pts unit into 250pts worth of units in the same turn, nor is it likely to produce all the Warp Charge, all the time.
At best, the Daemon player will have about 2-4 WC being produced for the "same" 90pt investment at any given turn. Not 44

-

Sure, it is a theoretical scenario. Probably even impossible due to game length.

But even in the worst case scenario, a single 11 model pink horror unit without the locus now has effectively 55 (77) wounds and needs to be killed at least 3 times. They operate at the same or *increased* effectiveness as models die.

With how the game usually goes for me, my opponents throw a few stray boaters at the pinks to knock out one warp charge - a strategy which won't work anymore. Now just to stop the snowball effect the opponent needs to invest a large amount of shooting. If the pinks go to ground in ruins, you need to put 50 wounds on them to kill them all in one phase. If my opponent invests that amount of shooting to kill horrors instead of daemon princes I'm happy.
Wiping them out in assault is far easier, but it still takes at least 3 turns to completely do. If your opponent is trying to assault you off an objective, it's futile.

Now that I really think about it, I think the split rule is going to cause players to just completely ignore the pink horrors until the game is sealed, because trying to deal with them just creates more problems than it solves.

**commander dante**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Was able to find this.

All that i can see is that he is 650 smakeroos and his melee wepon is AP2 (despite the fact that MCs Close Combat Attacks are always AP2)

**Retrogamer0001**

Is there any confirmation that Dark Angels will be getting any updates/new models? I see the DA codex says "no longer available" on the Canadian site, though I know this may mean nothing.

**Lou_Cypher**

Any confirmation that the Tzeentch Discipline still have the Prismatic Gaze D Str power?

The chance to get them with Blue and Brimstone Horrors as split might be interesting.

**astro_nomicon**

They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.

**DarkStarSabre**

astro_nomicon wrote:
They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.

Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.

Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.

**Berwald**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
astro_nomicon wrote:
They fleshed out the Tzeentch table in the for chaos space marines. The Daemon Tzeentch table from Curse of the Wulfen is unchanged.

Now if Traitor Legions does the same for Nurgle and Slaanesh I will be so happy.

Especially for Nurgle. Since Typhus HAS to take that god awful discipline it'd be nice to have a chance of stuff worth using other than Force lol.

I don't believe the Traitor legion supplement will carry any Chaos bonuses.

Remember, Traitor legions are those that left the might of the Imperium and DIDN'T join chaos.
Otherwise, they would be Chaos Space Marines.