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Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 MadCowCrazy wrote:
1: Sisters are coming.
2: They are coming in January 2017.
3: They will go up on pre-order in December 2016
4: Images of the new kits will be shown after we see the whole Thousand Sons release.
5: Thousand Sons kits will be shown within 2 weeks.
6: Sisters of Battle models will be show within 6 weeks.

.
I feel like I am going to look at the News and rumor section again right now!

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Boob plate does make sense in 40K, it doesn't make sense in our world because our personal protection is garbage.

Meh don't care, what I care about is why boobplate was chosen and how it looks and what it conveys. Not realism for realism sake.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 MadCowCrazy wrote:
40K armour on the other hand is many hundreds of times better than the best ones we have. The armour in 40k is so good in fact that many are crafted like works of art and almost all power armour is painted in bright colours so you can see the wearer from afar.
No personal armour we have could take a bolt round but 40k armour can to some degrees. In fact the same metric can be used for 40k armour as with our own.


That arqument makes zero sense. That assumes armour is invulnerable. That is NOTHING in 40k can penetrate it. THEN it doesn't matter because you are just as protected with or without.

BUT obviously that's not correct. Space marines die. Armour gets penetrated. Therefore you still need to make armour as protective as possible. This means deflecting impact OUT of your critical area.

Ergo boop plates are still bad idea. Just because you need bigger gun doesn't mean you can wave that away. It works fine as long as you don't face bigger gun but what happens when you do? Answer: Your chances of getting killed increases. You have just made armour that's less efficient than it could be.

Power armour without boop plate=more protective than one without. Simple as that. Only reasons when you don't have to worry about is when your armour is 100% impenetrable or when you don't care whether your armour is good or not.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





tneva82 wrote:
 MadCowCrazy wrote:
40K armour on the other hand is many hundreds of times better than the best ones we have. The armour in 40k is so good in fact that many are crafted like works of art and almost all power armour is painted in bright colours so you can see the wearer from afar.
No personal armour we have could take a bolt round but 40k armour can to some degrees. In fact the same metric can be used for 40k armour as with our own.


That arqument makes zero sense. That assumes armour is invulnerable. That is NOTHING in 40k can penetrate it. THEN it doesn't matter because you are just as protected with or without.

BUT obviously that's not correct. Space marines die. Armour gets penetrated. Therefore you still need to make armour as protective as possible. This means deflecting impact OUT of your critical area.

Ergo boop plates are still bad idea. Just because you need bigger gun doesn't mean you can wave that away. It works fine as long as you don't face bigger gun but what happens when you do? Answer: Your chances of getting killed increases. You have just made armour that's less efficient than it could be.

Power armour without boop plate=more protective than one without. Simple as that. Only reasons when you don't have to worry about is when your armour is 100% impenetrable or when you don't care whether your armour is good or not.


But the EMPRAH PROTECTS! Maybe the reasoning their armor isn't designed as well as it can be is because they feel the Emperor will literally protect them against any threat because of their unwavering faith. So that allows them to have a bit more artistic freedom in their armor shape because the Big E won't let them die anyway.

Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Stuck in the snow.

tneva82 wrote:
 MadCowCrazy wrote:
40K armour on the other hand is many hundreds of times better than the best ones we have. The armour in 40k is so good in fact that many are crafted like works of art and almost all power armour is painted in bright colours so you can see the wearer from afar.
No personal armour we have could take a bolt round but 40k armour can to some degrees. In fact the same metric can be used for 40k armour as with our own.


That arqument makes zero sense. That assumes armour is invulnerable. That is NOTHING in 40k can penetrate it. THEN it doesn't matter because you are just as protected with or without.

BUT obviously that's not correct. Space marines die. Armour gets penetrated. Therefore you still need to make armour as protective as possible. This means deflecting impact OUT of your critical area.

Ergo boop plates are still bad idea. Just because you need bigger gun doesn't mean you can wave that away. It works fine as long as you don't face bigger gun but what happens when you do? Answer: Your chances of getting killed increases. You have just made armour that's less efficient than it could be.

Power armour without boop plate=more protective than one without. Simple as that. Only reasons when you don't have to worry about is when your armour is 100% impenetrable or when you don't care whether your armour is good or not.


No, his argument actually makes quite a lot of sense and you just don't seem to grasp it or how weapons interact with armor.

MadCow's point is that armor in 40k is designed to invalidate everything up to a certain abstract "ballistic" strength of weapons which it will encounter. Why did I put "ballistic" in scare quotes? Because by the 41st Millennium we know that a vast majority of fielded weapons are non-kinetic where ballistics largely stops being relevant and instead you now have to worry about entirely different principles such as heat dispersion.

Weapons like lasguns, vortex grenades, vibrocannons, zzap guns, grav guns, plasma cannons, tesla guns, etc. don't care at all what shape your armor is so much as what it is made of. You either have a material that is proof against the type of energy being thrown at it, or you watch you armor either suffer a material failure or turn into a deathtrap.

Even looking at specifically ballistic weapons against armor it still doesn't matter. Shaped hard armor has only ever applied to body armor utilized in deflecting close combat weapons relying on piecing or cleaving or low force bearing projectiles. That's it.

If a ballistic weapon has enough directed force to penetrate power armor then it will penetrate it regardless of where on the armor it hits. If a specific ammunition type can't penetrate the armor outright then you are left with only two options:

1) put enough rounds into the armor to induce a structural flaw which will allow for material failure (this is entirely dependent on the material and the armor's design)

2) aim for a spot not protected by said material (aka a video game-esq weakpoint) [#2 by the way is the reason why Space Marine MKVIII Errant Armor exists, because the most effective way to kill a Space Marine in lore is to target the soft-armor at the joints and neck.]

Thus the real failure of Sororitas boob armor is the minimal (assuming they wear their freakin helmet) chance that a projectile without the force capable to penetrate their armor will ricochet of their off the top, outer sides, or bottom of their breast-bastions into either the soft armor under their helmet (or just your face if you decided to feel the gore in your hair today), the elbow joints, or the top of the thigh.

The chance of any of which involving a ridiculous amount of luck or probably pool-god levels of mental geometry. (or if your a psyker and cheat. The real reason why SoB hunt witches)

For anything with the actual force to penetrate SoB power armor it really doesn't matter if it glances off the boob into the center or hits directly between them from start, as the effect will be the same. Which is to say that there is a very good chance of that bullet punching through her armor.

"So why do people always say that boob armor is dangerous and ineffective?"

Because the context that tied to that statement has been lost over the course of it being used as an argumentum ad infinitum.

That statement about boob armor being dangerous specifically argued against in the context of fantasy settings where parallels can easily be drawn to historical medieval weapons. In that case, yes, boob armor is bad because a spear or sword being directed towards center mass allows the wielder to direct all the force from the strike into their target. What also matters here is that even during the heyday of medieval armor there were still plenty of ways that you could beat it. What was significant was that armor increased your chances of survival by saving your from attacks which would normally kill a lesser armored soldier, and when you are a noble who doesn't want to die in a field of piss and gak you are willing take every possible advantage you can. So yeah, fantasy boob armor is absolutely impractical.

And even with 40ks obsession of having melee specific troops, boob armor still really isn't that much of a negative when you consider that the large majority of those melee specialists are armed with weapons strong enough to penetrate either vehicles or power armored infantry. Which leads us back to the idea that yeah, its not doing you any favors, but if the enemy is attacking you with can-openers then your armor probably won't stand up to the blow no matter where it gets hit. Best defense? Buy a rosarius.

Edit: I missed some words

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 03:25:52


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

It's more accurate to say it's crafted from inert plotonium-- a metal that protects the most when it's most convenient to the plot for it to do so, and offers little protection when the plot considers it a hinderance.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Missionary On A Mission






Jack Flask wrote:
Thus the real failure of Sororitas boob armor is the minimal (assuming they wear their freakin helmet) chance that a projectile without the force capable to penetrate their armor will ricochet of their off the top, outer sides, or bottom of their breast-bastions into either the soft armor under their helmet (or just your face if you decided to feel the gore in your hair today), the elbow joints, or the top of the thigh.


So it's not the chance that such a blow or projectile that hits the boob plate but doesn't penetrate will force the centre of the boob plate into the breastbone? Because that's the physics reason I've heard for why boob plate is bad.

- - - - - - -
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Please for the love of god lock this thread, there is nothing of value happening anymore.


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ERJAK wrote:
Please for the love of god lock this thread, there is nothing of value happening anymore.


There were people still on topic about the rumours as recently as the top of this page!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 05:21:30


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

That top post is awfully specific.

I'll believe it when I see it.

   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





Stuck in the snow.

 BBAP wrote:
Jack Flask wrote:
Thus the real failure of Sororitas boob armor is the minimal (assuming they wear their freakin helmet) chance that a projectile without the force capable to penetrate their armor will ricochet of their off the top, outer sides, or bottom of their breast-bastions into either the soft armor under their helmet (or just your face if you decided to feel the gore in your hair today), the elbow joints, or the top of the thigh.


So it's not the chance that such a blow or projectile that hits the boob plate but doesn't penetrate will force the centre of the boob plate into the breastbone? Because that's the physics reason I've heard for why boob plate is bad.


I mean thats guessing a lot about a non-existant material and armor design/composition which we can only speculate as to the properties of. We have no way of knowing whether ceramite deforms or shatters as a result of a heavy impact.

Plus, even if we assume that the material (ceramite I believe) has a tendancy to deform at higher forces, to argue that the central "wedge" would cave in assumes a lot about the armor's structure. For all we know the boobs on the plate could be wholly decorative additions over a smoth plate. Not to mention even if the armor boobs are affixed to holes in the front of the plate we'd have to know how they are joined as well as the structural tolerances of the overall plate against front facing trauma compared to that of just the boob housing. Otherwise theres no way to know if the join between the two parts would shear, the entire plate would cave, or if just the boob would cave.

Also the only time we'd expect to get this sort of result is with a ballistic weapon that delivers high amounts of blunt force trauma without it being focused enough to just punch through the plate in the first place which is a pretty uncommon train for most modern weapons (thinking off the top of my head this sort of applies to cannons and shotguns with slugs). Otherwise this is more of an effect associated with blunt weapons such as hammers or maces, which again are going to be fatal simply due to being sheathed by a power field, swung by an ork, etc before you even start arguing about armor deformation.


My point was more that smaller caliber rounds (relative to other guns in 40k) such as those from an autogun have a chance of going from 0% effective to .001% chance effective on the off chance that they ricochet the wrong way.


Edit: Also as far as the actual topic of the thread goes, this thread really has no where to go. Atia said explicitly that we are getting Sisters sometime in the beginning of 2017. Someone (cant remember if it was Atia as well) said Canoness preorder end of December. At this point everyone just has to play the waiting game until either SoB show up for preorder or we reach Q2 2017 with nothing but disappointment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 06:23:18


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Agent Provocateur






 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 MadCowCrazy wrote:
1: Sisters are coming.
2: They are coming in January 2017.
3: They will go up on pre-order in December 2016
4: Images of the new kits will be shown after we see the whole Thousand Sons release.
5: Thousand Sons kits will be shown within 2 weeks.
6: Sisters of Battle models will be show within 6 weeks.

.
I feel like I am going to look at the News and rumor section again right now!

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
Boob plate does make sense in 40K, it doesn't make sense in our world because our personal protection is garbage.

Meh don't care, what I care about is why boobplate was chosen and how it looks and what it conveys. Not realism for realism sake.


As for the blob plate argument, there is a quick and simple reason why they have it. It is theatrical and dramatic and they have the
resources to do it. This is the same civilization that puts cathedrals bigger than Notre Dame on their spaceships
, use tank chases that were outdated by ww2, and use gun designs that by 40k are 38,000+ years old.

And even if it gets more people killed, its not like the Imperium has a shortage of people.

But back on topic. Ooooh boy sic weeks. I can't wait.
   
 
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