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 Roknar wrote:


Black Legion have a close to 100% chance to activate the key turn one.

You severely overestimate the non-scatter-reduced deepstrike. It's a good 50% to not get what you want. If you're indeed aiming for a charge.

Currently I'm thinking for NL I'm going to go with a Raptor Talon Core with some Turkey formations and a Renegade knight detachment. If I have points spare I would go to minimum CAD to utilize Raptor Troops.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I've tried heavy deepstrike csm lists - lots of solo mutilators and oblits. And i must say that even with one model and even with just a d6 scatter half the time - instead of 2d6 - due to daemon allies with banners, it was too unreliable to be good. And i tried it like 5-6 times. It's kinda ok when it works but it doesn't 50% of the time and you still have to rely on magic and spawn deathstars.

I'm not seeing full ds csm as a good tactic all in all. Maybe if csm got some sort of locator beacons.

There's a 33 % chance to not scatter at all, and then on average the scatter will be lower than the charge range due to re-rolls.
It's far from perfect but you have a decent shot at making it. Plus there is a 50 ish% chance to scatter towards them rather than away, which is good unless you land on top. Although scattering towards a different unit would be just fine for this. And you're coming down turn 1 rather than having to wait until turn 2, so even if you do fail you could see it as a free attempt to deepstrike.
It's not perfect but I think it's worth taking the odds.

I'm telling from my own gaming experience. I'd not expect the success rate to be higher than 50% for such risky deepstrikes. I've run termicide for quite some time. I've tried solo muties and oblis. What my experience tells me is to not rely on deepstrike as a primary tactic unless you have good ds mitigation - like sm pods, no scatter or at very least re-rolls for ds scatter or d6 less inces of scatter.

Note that ds tends to work better the fewer models and impass there are on the table. We tend to play on relatively dense terrain with impass and 1850 games with a bunch of models rolling around.

Mishaps are a different story. I'm just saying the scatter should work out more often than not for the talon lord. If you mishap, you're not going to get a chance to charge regardlesss of the result.
The prize is a accurate deepstriking across the board and charges from deepstrike the turn after, for at least 6 units and no need for transports.

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Thanks, but I should warn you to read my posts with the knowledge that I'm not a competitive player. I have a very different perspective on the game compared to say Slayer-Fan123.
Not saying I dismiss the competitive angle, but I have different standards.

With that out of the way, even in a raptor talon I'd take 1 unit of warp talons at most. They have a few issues apart from costing too much and the talon doesn't fix them. You're probably better of just giving a raptor champion a powersword or so. You really want to keep things cheap with this kind of army. The Warlord could mishap or scatter really far and then you don't really want to risk 160pts doing nothing.
Besides, no scatter raptors in a talon are awesome.

Reserves are always on a 3+ until the 4th turn where they just come automatically. There is the possibility to improve the reserve roll, but I'm still trying to find out if BL could take the fortification formation from IW. that would make it much easier and cheaper than getting another CAD, still, might be worthwhile since you plan on arrriving turn 2 anyway. It wouldn't have any effect in the first turn I think, depends on how the speartip rule is worded.
If it was the case though, it might be worth just taking two raptor talons and forgetting about the key

Finally, lost and the damned is an Aux choice for BL so no dice there.

Has anyone with better understanding of rules and interactions weighed in on the Alpha Legion Detachment bonus?

1.) It provides the cultists with the ability to on a 4+ roll, join ongoing reserves.
2.) Lost and the Damned formation gives the exact same benefit, but from a different source.

Do these stack? Would you get two 4+ chances? Could you get 2 units from 1? Etc.

Not yet, we might have to wait until we have the book in hands.

 Roknar wrote:
Not yet, we might have to wait until we have the book in hands.

Or failing that, the day 1 FAQ.

I hope it doubles, or at least gives a re-roll.

I think Alpha's can be set up to almost never give up a warlord point.

Also, up the cultists to around the 130 mark, and you can auto-win against null deployed drop pods.

Really want to run WB for fluff and aesthetic reasons.

Its hard to escape the fact you are doubling down on bad options though.

Is there anyway to get away from Possessed being slightly cheaper Wulfen with weaker stats, no upgrades and hence significantly worse? Has anyone run the Favoured of Chaos formation with any success?

 Roknar wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I was thinking of going the extra mile and going for full on null deployment.
I'd probably take a hounds of abbadon core. It needs less dreadclaws and the hound basic csm are better than the warband since they now get free Mok AND free VotLW and even a pseudo furious charge.
(Then try to convinve the opponent to play the altar of war mission that also gives them free zealot and watch WE players give you the stink eye as you do WE better than them , or the one with speartip to bring your entire army in without rolling for reserves )

Buy a claw for the marines and bring raptors, both can now deepstrike and then put the zerkers in reserve where they belong. Stick the lord with the marines so they have fearless.
Then bring a raptor talon and a TAF, both can deepstrike and then make the raptor talon lord your warlord and give him the key and brand for TAF lord. Bring all the melta/flamer/plasma you want.

And if you somehow manage to have enough points try to sneak in a Fire Raptor or take a cabal and mix in some termi sorcerers throughout.

I'm beyond excited for the Black Legion, gimme gimme gimme a decent deepstrike chaos army.

But I was wondering what your thoughts on raptors vs warp talons in the formation are? Honestly i'm looking for anyones thoughts on this, but Roknar you've been an incredible source of information while i've been trying to figure out how to put together a new CSM army.

my very inexperienced thoughts are that i'm not sure how the warp talons 'betterness' is compared to taking more raptors instead. I'm leaning towards going all raptors for more chances at DS where I need to be, and outside of dedicated melee units even with the disorganized charged they're decent enough to tear up what they assault, most armies line troops at least.

Also from what I read the warlords unit can DS 1rst turn, and the rest get to roll on 3+ first turn. I wonder if that means it's 2+ 2nd turn? and do we have anything else that will further improve the odds for those non warlord containing reserve rolls?

One last thought. I couldn't find it, but is the lost and the damned a core option for black legion? if so that could be a cheaper core to free up more points for things dropping in.

Thanks, but I should warn you to read my posts with the knowledge that I'm not a competitive player. I have a very different perspective on the game compared to say Slayer-Fan123.
Not saying I dismiss the competitive angle, but I have different standards.

With that out of the way, even in a raptor talon I'd take 1 unit of warp talons at most. They have a few issues apart from costing too much and the talon doesn't fix them. You're probably better of just giving a raptor champion a powersword or so. You really want to keep things cheap with this kind of army. The Warlord could mishap or scatter really far and then you don't really want to risk 160pts doing nothing.
Besides, no scatter raptors in a talon are awesome.

Reserves are always on a 3+ until the 4th turn where they just come automatically. There is the possibility to improve the reserve roll, but I'm still trying to find out if BL could take the fortification formation from IW. that would make it much easier and cheaper than getting another CAD, still, might be worthwhile since you plan on arrriving turn 2 anyway. It wouldn't have any effect in the first turn I think, depends on how the speartip rule is worded.
If it was the case though, it might be worth just taking two raptor talons and forgetting about the key

Finally, lost and the damned is an Aux choice for BL so no dice there.

Thank you for the response homie. I'm not a competitive player really either, or at least tournament level hyper competitive, i enjoy being able to try different things out that might not be min/maxed or absolutely optimized, but are plain fun. Different strokes for different folks.

That's about what i was thinking with raptors, if you could plonk down more cheap squads there's a better chance of getting a good position in range of key units. I think i need to go pick up 4 boxes now.

As you said I think earlier in the thread the dimensional key could work, but only for what comes in after the warlord has already done his thing. Might be worth it for stragglers who don't pass their special first turn 3+ roll.

I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

What tight restrictions? Most of us go mono anyway and VotLW is free everywhere for all intents and purposes.

Well, it seemed that every traitor legion had to either take everything with a mark, or nothing with a mark, and from what I understand, marks are great to take on some units, but not on everything.

For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

And not having that freedom to mix and match, while fluffy, seems a trifle harsh.

With all the free crap imperials get in certain formations (demi company, war convocation), I'm almost surprised the chapters dedicated to a specific god wouldn't just get the appropriate mark for free. But that might be a bit much.

Or would it? I honestly am not certain, but hell, when a war convocation gets to bring a 3K list to a 2K game, how much worse would free marks be?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I'll admit that I'm not a CSM player (ork only), and I glanced over the highlights and I can't say I'm hugely impressed.

I'm not sure what I was expecting, honestly, but overall there just seems to be tight restrictions on taking/not taking marks, in exchange for some pretty tame special rules.

Some relics seems decent, but overall, I still feel like CSM really need a new codex, not an endless barrage of supplements.

It looks like fun, and fluffy, and I'd probably love something similar for ork klans, but bottom line, it does seem a little lackluster.

Then again, I suppose the traitor legion bonuses are quite a bit more substantial than loyalist versions, so that's certainly something.

Well if you compare anything against loyalists everything looks awful. But having not played chaos in the past but being a huge fan of chaos lore for a decade, this book gave me the final push to actually do it. Because while you're right, chaos needs a new dex badly, i think people are just happy to have something, and more specifically something that feels 'chaosy' as in able to represent peoples favorite flavors unlike the prior book that stripped all character from chaos.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

In what manner? Marks aren't THAT expensive like you're making them out to be.

Black Legion and Word Bearers can still mix marks as needed. And you can still mix in individual formations from different legions if you want want the associated legion benefits.

Also ,on that note, it might be an idea to take a TAF from deathguard or EC with the Black Legion built around the key.
Shriekwave or bolts of vexation would both be good, not mention both DG and EC make the other termies fearless.
WE might not be bad either considering you run out of combi weapons after shooting and you have counter attack in case you get charged.

Relentless Plague Marines (and CSM/Havocs) are amazing.

Now, i would almost always field Plasma guns and double tap, letting the Blight Grenades (and overwatch) take some bite out of the enemy counter charge next turn, but now having the option to charge in afterwards is great!

I like the idea of Alpha Legion outflanking a blob of cultists with a mindveil IC attached. 35 cultists is only 150 points, they give the HQ infiltrate, the HQ gives them fearless or a better leadership, and mindveil gives them a decent threat radius the following turn (and the option to leave combat). Very fluffy.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Relentless Plague Marines (and CSM/Havocs) are amazing.

Now, i would almost always field Plasma guns and double tap, letting the Blight Grenades (and overwatch) take some bite out of the enemy counter charge next turn, but now having the option to charge in afterwards is great!

Even 2 havocs with lascannons or other heavy weapons in a rhino might be fun.

155pts and you have a mobile 2 lascannon platform that even when it blows up you have 5 t5 fnp fearless guys that can keep firing even on the turn after it gets popped! And to top it off if it takes the same format as the TH formation they will be obsec to boot!
good times

Just looked at what it would cost for that null deployment list.
All BL, 1 hounds of abaddon, 1 TAF, 1 Raptor talon, gave termis plasma and a brand (on a lvl 3 sorc) everything else has melta, nothing else and all min sized. Only lightning claws on the lords.

That's 1 unit of csm and a claw, 1 of zerkers, 4 units of raptors, 3 termicides and already at about 1,5 k points. Quite a sting if enough units make it out of reserve turn 2, but after that it's mostly glass and not a whole lot of cannon. Not sure 300ish points is enough to fix that. Especially with no CAD and null deployment.

So I saw the post suggesting a Night Lord Khorne DP and Tzeentch DP with their Relics. Night Lords aren't allowed to have Marks of Chaos, wouldnt that mean No DP in the Army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is it different because they are "Daemons of"

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
So I saw the post suggesting a Night Lord Khorne DP and Tzeentch DP with their Relics. Night Lords aren't allowed to have Marks of Chaos, wouldnt that mean No DP in the Army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is it different because they are "Daemons of"

Thats exactly why its different.

Ok, it's been a while since I even looked at the book so I had one of those "What a minute..." moments.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For example, being able to take nurgle oblits or bikers without having to take MoN marines or cultists.

You now want nurgle on everything, so it's not really an issue anymore.

Like I said, I'm not an expert on CSM, but I've fought them a time or two, and I've played all MoN armies and they just don't have the manpower. Things are tougher, sure, but they have barely any models, and get overwhelmed. It seems to me that the biggest mistake CSM players can make is going overboard on unit upgrades and not having enough models.

And I'm just not convinced the chapter tactics are enough to offset the additional cost of every model in your army.

Though, that criticism is only valid for the marked armies, for undivided armies the tactics are nice, except for being unable to use marks where you'd want them.

Well, now that's different. You're adding FNP, Fearless, and Relentless with that mark of nurgle. You also get a reroll 1s to FNP (I believe?) which is an ~8% additional increase in survivability. That makes basic marines good now. That costs 3 points. I don't know why you think that's overboard with upgrades.

Now, you can get 10 basic marines like this (and lose defensive grenades + plague knife) vs 7 plague marines. You also get the option to take a heavy weapon instead of 2 specials. So, it actually does the opposite of what you're saying.

You don't really need cultists (and if you do, just take a standard cad).