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 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

I'd much, much rather try to fix essentially laughably weak units than lose even more variety. For example, I like MoO's suggestions for Ogryns: point cost reduction and FnP. 20 points with FnP would certainly be too cheap, though. I think 30 is more than fair for 3 wound T5 models with FnP. Similarly, I hate how Bullgryns are forced to replace both their shield and their weapon together. If I could pay for just the power mauls but keep the slab shields, I'd be in heaven (but of course they also need the FnP/10 pt price drop that the unarmored ones need).

What could be done for Ratlings? Perhaps extra range, and either Stealth or Shrouded. Boom, low profile unit in your backfield ruins that are your anti-MC and hard to see, let alone shoot at.

I think cavalry should get similar treatment to bikes. Either an extra wound or +1T seems sensible to me. Since horses can't Jink (for now ), they need something unique that gives them their own distinct advantages, maybe eliminate difficult and dangerous terrain for them. But of course, that's more of an issue with the unit type than the unit itself.

If there can be no Rough Rider buff, put some guardsmen on damn motorcycles, slimmer and less klunky than those silly marine bikes. That could vie for the coolest looking IG model available.

 KommissarKiln wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

I'd much, much rather try to fix essentially laughably weak units than lose even more variety. For example, I like MoO's suggestions for Ogryns: point cost reduction and FnP. 20 points with FnP would certainly be too cheap, though. I think 30 is more than fair for 3 wound T5 models with FnP. Similarly, I hate how Bullgryns are forced to replace both their shield and their weapon together. If I could pay for just the power mauls but keep the slab shields, I'd be in heaven (but of course they also need the FnP/10 pt price drop that the unarmored ones need).

The best fix for Bullgryn with Slab Shields is to make their Grenadier Gauntlets have a special rule associated with them, ala the Death Jester's Biotoxin rounds for his Shuriken Cannon.

Right now, the fact that the GG is Blast preventing Overwatch is ridiculous. It's a flipping Frag Grenade fired out of a tube, not a tank cannon.

What could be done for Ratlings? Perhaps extra range, and either Stealth or Shrouded. Boom, low profile unit in your backfield ruins that are your anti-MC and hard to see, let alone shoot at.

You know what else could be done there?
Bring back actual Guard Sniper Teams like the way that Catachans had them and Elysians have them now.

I think cavalry should get similar treatment to bikes. Either an extra wound or +1T seems sensible to me. Since horses can't Jink (for now ), they need something unique that gives them their own distinct advantages, maybe eliminate difficult and dangerous terrain for them. But of course, that's more of an issue with the unit type than the unit itself.

If there can be no Rough Rider buff, put some guardsmen on damn motorcycles, slimmer and less klunky than those silly marine bikes. That could vie for the coolest looking IG model available.

Yeah, no.

You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

Now, if you want to argue for more "nontraditional" stuff for Guard? I'm down for that.

I would love Hornet Biker Teams in FA, where they have no real weapons beyond a "deployable scanner".

Deployable Scanner:
During a Hornet Biker Team's Movement phase, they can select a position near where they moved. They can then place a Scanner Post at that location.

A Scanner Post is a piece of Battlefield Debris with T6 and 4W with a 3+ Armor Save and the special rule of "Sensor Net".

Sensor Net: Enemy units within a 12" range of a Sensor Net cannot claim the benefits of Stealth and/or Shrouded when in Cover or Jinking.
If an enemy unit is within 12" of multiple Scanner Posts, they also cannot claim a Cover Save from area terrain.

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

 don_mondo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

You understand her point, yes?

You stopped counting when you hit 100, but you wouldn't ever want to field that many.

This is exactly the issue with the Guard as it stands right now. We have formations and bonuses for taking huge amounts of infantry, but what's the point? It's like training a parrot to curse, it's an entertaining but ultimately pointless exercise.

 Kanluwen wrote:


You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

And yet, we used to have motorcycle IG... I've still got mine. And my IG landspeeders...

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


You want something "fast" like that, then the buggies from FW are the way to go. We don't need motorcycles, as they would serve no purpose beyond reconnaissance for the Guard.

Hell, even in the Guard fluff there's no "combat motorcycles". There's the Blackshadow and Hornet bikes mentioned by name in "Gunheads", but they're for couriers/scouts.

And yet, we used to have motorcycle IG... I've still got mine. And my IG landspeeders...

Good for you.

We don't have them now though, and bringing them back as anything beyond noncombat units would be a perfect example of "Missing the Point".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
What's wrong with owning that many Guardsmen
[...]
Stopped when I hit 100... Not that I would ever want to field that many

... I can't tell if this post is parodying itself or not.

Heheheh, nope, I really did as stated. I could actually field that 660 guardsmen... Might not all be painted, but I've got 'em!

You understand her point, yes?

You stopped counting when you hit 100, but you wouldn't ever want to field that many.

This is exactly the issue with the Guard as it stands right now. We have formations and bonuses for taking huge amounts of infantry, but what's the point? It's like training a parrot to curse, it's an entertaining but ultimately pointless exercise.

ahhhh, nope, guess I missed it. Then again, my goal is to build and paint an entire IG force org, maxed out. Kinda like my buddy that has an entire Smurf Chapter... And by not wanting to field that many I meant the 660, not the 100. I've fielded 100 or more on multiple occasions.

I just want a veteran driver option for the chimeras when used by a veteran squad.

Veteran Driver: 10 points; Chimera gains fast (after moving, roll a d6, on a 1, vehicle becomes mobilized and loses 1 hull point)

I'd miss Ratlings if they were removed. It's not their fault really. The problem with them is that 40k can't do snipers very well in it's current form. Give them camo gear and snare mines for free, so they get +2 to their cover save . And vox casters and a unit leader to help out with orders.

The regular unarmored Ogyrns should be repurposed into a shooting unit. This would be as easy as doubling the range of their ripper guns, redesigning them into machine gun type devices rather than shotguns.

Also, shouldn't we look at the Tau for ideas on how to make the IG better? Supporting Fire and Coordinated Fire for example?

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Dump Rough Riders and Ratlings. They've never contributed anything beyond taking up a slot.

They hurt nothing, and the guard have other elite/fast attack options for you to use if you don't like the. Don't uou think dumping them is inconsiderate to the people who spent time/money on them or know how to use them in their local meta? Sorry but that would be a dick-move on GW's part.

Ask anyone who had units of Stormtroopers, Veterans, or Guard infantry with Lasgun/Hellgun armed Sergeants how they feel about the current books.

Short answer? I don't care. They can get over it.
They're legacy options that were kept to maintain a "certain number of options" in those slots, but in reality do nothing but hold back development time that could be used to make something actually thoughtful and interesting.

Something that needs to be understood right here and now is this:
Guard, as an army, need a dramatic restructuring and reconcepting. It won't come from us keeping stupid crap like Ratlings and Rough Riders around.

It will come from us accepting that Fast Attack slots aren't strictly for "things that go fast". It's a perfect slot for Tarantula Sentry Guns, for example, given that TSGs have the capability to be airdropped into position.

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'd miss Ratlings if they were removed. It's not their fault really. The problem with them is that 40k can't do snipers very well in it's current form. Give them camo gear and snare mines for free, so they get +2 to their cover save . And vox casters and a unit leader to help out with orders.

The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

The regular unarmored Ogyrns should be repurposed into a shooting unit. This would be as easy as doubling the range of their ripper guns, redesigning them into machine gun type devices rather than shotguns.

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

Also, shouldn't we look at the Tau for ideas on how to make the IG better? Supporting Fire and Coordinated Fire for example?

The big problem there is you end up with people getting lazy and just wanting to copy/paste those.

Supporting Fire is something that realistically should just be attached to Overwatch though.
Coordinated Fire is something which could be a "High Commander" order.

You want real ideas as to how to make the IG better?
Take their Start Collecting formation special rules and add them into the army period.

Mobile Cover: Infantry models from this Formation that are within 6" of the Armoured Shield's Leman Russ receive a 4+ Cover Save.

Hellrain Reinforcements: Each time a Hellrain Brigade's unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions is completely destroyed, you can --if its Commissar is alive--immediately place a new unit into Ongoing Reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (in terms of the number of models, weapons, and upgrades). Reinforcement units arrive from Deep Strike Reserve and count as being part of the same Formation.

Additionally, Orders being tied to Voxes would be huge.

Regimental tactics should totally be a thing. Also, vehicles not sucking would be a huge help.

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

The IG have a problem with not really having a strong design principle in the current book. How are they supposed to play? What's their path to victory?

I think there are two basic approaches: dole out enough updgrades and buffs to make them a poor man's Tau/Space Marine list... or... make them the ultimate combined arms force.

Just drop the points on everything, streamline some rules for simplicity sake, and allow an 1850 IG army to really bring an answer to everything. The answer to "are your IG mechanized or blobbed up" will be "YES!"

Keep IG BS3, keep 'em fragile. Drop all the dopey leadership tests on things like orders and war hymns, so you can make units effective, and make armies built around a couple platoons, some heavy weapon teams, mechanized vets, tanks, flier support, artillery, and psykers.

Sure, there are some tweaks I'd make:
-Grenade Launchers are Assault2 (so simple)
- LRBTs not only lose heavy and regain lumbering behemoth, but LB also confers split fire on the turret weapon, so the turret can shoot something differently from the hull/sponsons (part of me would even give the sponsons split fire at 20pts per...)
-Rough Riders gain outflank, and the ability to assault out of reserves.
- Stormtroopers lose AP3 on the hotshots, going back to AP5 with a decent price drop, but I'd give them an order to boost it back up.
-heavy weapon squads gain the "gun shield" rule, and are Toughness 5.

If you drop the price of most options, and tweak a few things, and give the IG access to enough orders, psychic powers, and specialist buffs, I think you can make an interesting army that's not just a pile of bodies or a wall of tanks.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

And the IG, in particular, have already lost a lot of options, some of which there were models for. I'm looking at you, Last Chancers and Griffon, along with my converted medusas.

There's nothing inherently wrong with rough riders, but their existence shouldn't stand in the way of more interesting units.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

Could work, but I'd prefer them remaining a stand alone unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

The older metal types certainly looked like shotguns, but the plastic ones on the current models look like machine guns to me. It wouldn't be the worst recon GW ever did.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The big problem there is you end up with people getting lazy and just wanting to copy/paste those.

Supporting Fire is something that realistically should just be attached to Overwatch though.
Coordinated Fire is something which could be a "High Commander" order.

You want real ideas as to how to make the IG better?
Take their Start Collecting formation special rules and add them into the army period.
Mobile Cover: Infantry models from this Formation that are within 6" of the Armoured Shield's Leman Russ receive a 4+ Cover Save.
Hellrain Reinforcements: Each time a Hellrain Brigade's unit of Militarum Tempestus Scions is completely destroyed, you can --if its Commissar is alive--immediately place a new unit into Ongoing Reserves that is identical to the unit that was destroyed (in terms of the number of models, weapons, and upgrades). Reinforcement units arrive from Deep Strike Reserve and count as being part of the same Formation.

These though are far better ideas than simply copying the Tau! They're very fluffy and would really help balance the Guard. If our units are so poor that their destruction is enviable then they should be recyclable.

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

I bought some rough riders circa 3rd & 4th edition. Why does that matter? Hint: it doesn't

I don't have ratlings, but I do like the new sculpts they put out around 5th. I would like to add some to my collection some day. They would fit well in my Fen Guard army.

And you are talking about copy-pasting across factions, which is totally different from copy-pasting within a faction with necessary amendments.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

I AM one of those guard players who gave my sergeants lasguns. And it pissed me off that I had to reassemble several guardsmen in the name of "streamlining" things. If I am going to fork out hard earned money, I expect them to keep rules for the units I bought. It doesn't take a lot of resources to copy-paste existing rules into new codexes with minor amendments to keep things up to date.

When did you buy your Ratlings and Rough Riders?

Hint: You didn't buy Rough Riders any time recently, unless they were from FW. Because they haven't sold them in roughly two flipping years.

Losing things sucks, but quite frankly?
Copy/pasting existing rules into new codices is how we got Space Marine pointed upgrades for Guard characters.

I bought some rough riders circa 3rd & 4th edition. Why does that matter? Hint: it doesn't

Actually it does. If GW themselves aren't even selling the bloody things, what's the point of them having a unit entry?

I don't have ratlings, but I do like the new sculpts they put out around 5th. I would like to add some to my collection some day. They would fit well in my Fen Guard army.

Meanwhile, the rest of us would probably like a squad for those fantastic Cadian Sniper models available in a 2 pack or the Cadian and Catachan Sniper bits in the Command Squad boxes.
C'est la vie.

And you are talking about copy-pasting across factions, which is totally different from copy-pasting within a faction with necessary amendments.

The two Start Collecting sets I posted the rules from are Astra Militarum(Mobile Cover) and Militarum Tempestus(Hellrain Reinforcements).

Totally different factions, guys!

Supporting Fire is something that I have been advocating for awhile now should just be attached to the rules for Overwatch, period, across every army.
Coordinated Fire is something that...well, there's no real way to avoid it being a "copy/paste". Guard basically got that anyways in Mont'ka where the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company and the Cadian Detachments can issue "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" to every Infantry Squad within the Formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem with them is that they're just a way to keep "Halflings in Spaaaace".

No. They have to go, at least in the aspect of them being their own unit.

A "Ratling Marksman Squad" that gets doled out, ala Warlock Councils and other unit attachments? Different story entirely.

Could work, but I'd prefer them remaining a stand alone unit.

But there's the big issue. Ratlings, like Scout Snipers and Eldar Rangers, just aren't that...interesting or special.

Scout Snipers for Marines got a bit of a shot in the arm with the Pinion Demi-Company, where Scouts grant Ignores Cover to a single unit within 9" and they grant Outflank to a unit that you hold in Reserve with them.
Eldar Rangers are...eh.

To an extent I even feel like this applies to Tau Pathfinders, although they've been given a great lynchpin role in several formations.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except they are shotguns...?

Realistically, Ripper Shotguns aren't the problem. It's that they're supposed to be a melee unit but they're not really set up for it.

An easier fix would be to give them a "sliding scale" of damage, the closer in you are the more damage it does. And then a bonus for their charge.

The older metal types certainly looked like shotguns, but the plastic ones on the current models look like machine guns to me. It wouldn't be the worst recon GW ever did.

They're made to look like manchild proofed autoshotguns.

Not sure where the "machine gun" impression is coming from.

@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

MAKE RUSSES GREAT AGAIN!

Revert to the 2nd edition vehicles in principle.

A russ could move and fire all the weapons at once (and at different targets). No bs about reduced accuracy from ordinance (only the Demolisher cannon was move or fire)

The tanks had BS4 (hit on 3+)

Moved the same speed as a Chimera.

Russes used to be immune to small arms fire and standard unit melee.. actually Demolisher had the same AV as a Land Raider.
Without giving it 14 all around, an equivalent armour value would be something like
14 13 12 with HP 4

Oh, and did i mention that a Russ used to cost the same as two squads of guardsmen? That would be 100 points by todays costing!

You used to collect guard for the vehicle power, and infantry were meat shields / bubble wrap.


TL;DR To fix Guard, make Russes great again!
BS4
14 13 12
HP 4
Split fire on all weapons (at least the turrent cannon)
Speed = normal vehicle with the old Lumbering Behemoth rule (always fire all weapons at full BS)... at least allow flat out moves FFS a Land raider is faster
Power of the machine spirit

Speaking of machineguns, I'm still wonderng why traitor guard have access to heavy stubber for their infantry squads and Guard does have not.

For me, Heavy stubber or alternate laser weapon with S3 AP6 Assault 3 or salvo 3/3 gun for 5p as additional special option would be sufficent.
OR raise it to 10p and give it pinning...

How about we give all vehicles split fire on every weapon, since they all have crews? Power of the machine spirit on land raiders and such allows every weapon to fire twice. Then tanks become somewhat fearsome.

To 'fix' infantry....

1. Give vox casters something like the 'markerlight ability"
Let's say 'recon targeting', if another unit with a vox shoots at the same unit and pass a Ld test and then they get +1BS and Pinning. This stacks with the next unit shooting at the same target,

2. The flanking bonus to shooting "if you can draw a straight line between the firing units and through the target unit get a bonus"... perhaps grant the second unit twin-linked.

3. Give guard infantry some sort of assault buff, Maybe a Jr officer order which grants rage (+1 extra attack dice when charging) and +1 initiative, call it "affix bayonetts"
considering FrFsrF results in 3 S3 shots at close range (followed by 2 snapshots and a single S3 punch next turn when charged), 3 S3 punches in assault at higher I is not unbalanced.

4. Allow infantry blobs to unblob or blob before they move each turn, if within unit coherency... this would allow a squad to unblob and move in different directions (think 3 squads) and bring tactics from 1 and 2 to bear on the target... give incentive to have more than one vox per blob.

5. Give commissars Jr officer orders for their own unit (auto pass if they execute a model).
6. Stormtroopers to get a HS laspistol so they have 2 ccw...and WS4... maybe give HS weapons Shred.
7. Rough riders = death riders from Dkok codex (4+, 2W, 2A, re-roll dangerous terrain, 6+ FNP, stubborn.. 16p) .

1 and 2 combined with orders would suddenly become quite powerful, if you are able to use your tactics to maneuver your enemy into the perfect position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah.. and give Guard access to Grav weapons!
Maybe as an option as a Heavy Grav cannon russ turrent
Grav cannon on armoured sentinals
Grav gun as special option for storm troopers

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Just gonna point out that you might want to look up videos of the AA-12, USAS12, or the Pancor Jackhammer.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

Nay.

Psykers aren't trusted to be out of sight of a Commissar or Officer. They're not gonna get their own transport.

Now, some kind of weird Psyker strapped into a 'combat' servitor body or something like that with handlers? Totally down for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makari wins wrote:
To 'fix' infantry....

1. Give vox casters something like the 'markerlight ability"
Let's say 'recon targeting', if another unit with a vox shoots at the same unit and pass a Ld test and then they get +1BS and Pinning. This stacks with the next unit shooting at the same target,

No.

Vox-Casters aren't Markerlights. Silly.

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery gives a good bonus to Vox-Caster units. Put that in as standard.
Additionally make it so units with Vox-Casters can receive or send Orders anywhere on the field.

There's a lot more you can do from there, but if we're just bandaid patching without tearing the stuff apart first, these are the big two.

2. The flanking bonus to shooting "if you can draw a straight line between the firing units and through the target unit get a bonus"... perhaps grant the second unit twin-linked.

How does "two units shooting at the same thing" suddenly become twin-linked?

3. Give guard infantry some sort of assault buff, Maybe a Jr officer order which grants rage (+1 extra attack dice when charging) and +1 initiative, call it "affix bayonetts"
considering FrFsrF results in 3 S3 shots at close range (followed by 2 snapshots and a single S3 punch next turn when charged), 3 S3 punches in assault at higher I is not unbalanced.

It's called a Priest.

4. Give commissars Jr officer orders for their own unit (auto pass if they execute a model).

NOPE! You take Commissars, you get nothing useful.

5. Stormtroopers to get a HS laspistol so they have 2 ccw...and WS4... maybe give HS weapons Shred.

How does a Hotshot Laspistol equate to 2 CCW? Do you mean so they get the Pistol+CCW bonus?

And no, Hotshot weapons don't need Shred. They're actually performing fairly well.

6. Rough riders = death riders from Dkok codex (4+, 2W, 2A, re-roll dangerous terrain, 6+ FNP, stubborn.. 16p)

Yeah, no.

Death Riders are a unique unit. Ditch Rough Riders period, then come up with something that doesn't suck or look stupidly out of place in every non-DKoK list.

1 and 2 combined with orders would suddenly become quite powerful, if you are able to use your tactics to maneuver your enemy into the perfect position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah.. and give Guard access to Grav weapons!
Maybe as an option as a Heavy Grav cannon russ turrent
Grav cannon on armoured sentinals
Grav gun as special option for storm troopers

God no.

Make the existing weapons actually worth a crap. There's a reason why Grav is a must-have for Space Marines. Because basically every other Imperial Special/Heavy Weapon option sucks.

I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

Fixing vehicles in general will help guard on its own. Depending on how much vehicles get changed in the future will really tell what fixes the Russ and such would need as well, though I am sure it will still need some tweaks to become competitive regardless.

For some wishlisting:
Regimental Doctrines return, and maybe each of the named regiments gains a Jr Command and Senior Command order. GW still sells the models for all of the regiments anyways, even if it is metal, so I don't see why they can't at least give a nod to them.

Scions: remove the +10 point cost for existing and give them +1 leadership, but keep them at 12ppm. Cut command squad's price by 10 as well. Then maybe give some small doctrine type things for them that you choose at the list building stage. Like for example, a "Close Quarters Combat" doctrine might give +1 attack and allow you to replace hot shot lasguns with a pistol + ccw, and 2 members can buy melee special weapons. Namely just alternate ways to build them that differentiates squads from each other and gives some small buffs as well. I suppose since we are wishlisting, I'd like the hot-shot laspistol to have a slight range increase as well, as 6" is a bit short.

Ogryn: I swear in older editions they had better leadership, higher strength in melee, and cost less, albeit they had lower toughness and less attacks. Maybe drop them to 25 points, give them leadership 8 for regulars and 9 for the bone'ead, and make Bullgrins an upgrade? Maybe cost it something like 10 or 15 points to upgrade the squad to 4+ armor (that way it becomes more valuable the more Ogryn you add to the unit), and then let the Bullgrin weapons/shields be upgrades as well. I also wouldn't mind seeing Ogryn able to shoot into melee, considering they are impulsive and crude - if it seems too powerful a thing, maybe make it so rolls of "1" to hit has them shoot their own allies?

A more general thing, but I also believe Vox Casters should provide a table wide benefit. I wouldn't even mind seeing them as standard gear in a squad, and then you can pay points to give them the reroll rule it currently has.

Makari wins wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

You mean Forge World book*.

Quite honestly, if people want to "fix" Guard in assault?

Emplaced Defenses:
Guard units very rarely fight in the open or without prepared positions. Enemy units charging a squad of Imperial Guardsmen not only have to deal with the fusillade of fire from the Guardsmen as they attempt to close the distance, but also have to deal with concealed mines or other defensive measures.

If an Imperial Guard squad has remained stationary during their previous Movement phase, they can elect to begin deploying emplaced defenses. The defenses become more and more elaborate based upon how long the squad has been deploying emplaced defenses.
1-2 turns stationary: The squad deploys barbed wire and sandbags.
3-4 turns stationary: The squad deploys mines and concussion grenades.
5-6 turns stationary: The squad deploys a Tarantula Sentry Gun.

While this doesn't make them something to charge with, it does scream more of a Guard solution than "Lulz bayonets!1!".

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Kanluwen

You couldn't see this



passing as a machine gun?

Eh, it's not important and I don't want to get bogged on that detail.

Anyway, a thought came to me. Dedicated transports for wyrdvane pyskers being crewed by other wyrdvane pyskers. Gain pyskic pilot and generate the same power(s) as their parent unit. So it can cast the main power whilst the unit shoots witchfire out of the hatch. Yay or nay?

That's not "passing as" a machine gun.

That thing absolutely is a machine gun.

Look at the stream of spent casings spewing from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Makari wins wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I agree with Makari that an order called Fix Bayonets would be fluffy and pretty cool, but I imagine it would be more along the lines of "You can shoot lasguns (and assault weapons) and must attempt to charge in the assault phase," or something like that.

This order exists in the DkoK codex.

You mean Forge World book*.

Quite honestly, if people want to "fix" Guard in assault?

Emplaced Defenses:
Guard units very rarely fight in the open or without prepared positions. Enemy units charging a squad of Imperial Guardsmen not only have to deal with the fusillade of fire from the Guardsmen as they attempt to close the distance, but also have to deal with concealed mines or other defensive measures.

If an Imperial Guard squad has remained stationary during their previous Movement phase, they can elect to begin deploying emplaced defenses. The defenses become more and more elaborate based upon how long the squad has been deploying emplaced defenses.
1-2 turns stationary: The squad deploys barbed wire and sandbags.
3-4 turns stationary: The squad deploys mines and concussion grenades.
5-6 turns stationary: The squad deploys a Tarantula Sentry Gun.

While this doesn't make them something to charge with, it does scream more of a Guard solution than "Lulz bayonets!1!".

Uhhhhhh...

Imperial Guard are standard humans.

We're not... good... at fighting in melee combat. We are too physically pathetic to be effective combatants against the rest of the galaxy.

What we are good at is inventing tools to overcome our physical helplessness. Like guns.

Imperial Guard really should be heavy on shooting and light on melee.

@ Pouncey

Exactly. I know automatic shotguns are a thing but that looks like a machine gun to me.

Also, I got this from battle for vedros:

Shoot again in the assault phase instead of assaulting (must be against the same target). Suits us to a tee.

Personally I would not mind slightly Cheaper MBT and A Grav tank.

Other then that I bring at least 100 guardsmen to a game one or 2 company commanders, x2 30 man conscripts commissar, two 20 man lascannon blobs with commissars and a regimental standard. I then fill up the rest of the army with tanks, vendettas and small storm troopers. My orders win the day and packing my men stop deep strike spam. The tanks last a lot longer behind a wall of men and most manage to get there points before dying. I do not bother with vets as my grunts do it better. I cant tell you how many time my conscripts have locked Dreadknights in combat and my commissar has gotten wounds with the power axes while my tanks and FRFSRF have killed everything else. I fight a space marine army almost every week and only win or lose by one victory point.

The guard are a balanced codex and that is the problem in a world invisible death stars, Tau riptide and storm surge spam, Jet bike spam and free drop pod/rhino/razzor back spam. GW needs to have a long hard look at rule braking Armies and tone them down. thats just my opinion though from my local store and house games.