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Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Regmental doctrines should be the thing. It adds more variety to the Guard. But if GW decides to do so, the should do the same thing to other factions as well.

SM already have their version of Doctrines. And IG infantry suck, and need a boost.

Actually, if you go by the fluff Vanilla Marines should be one of the least flexible armies in the entire game as they follow the Codex. Guard on the other hand should be one of the most flexible (next to Tyranids) owing to our variation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Regmental doctrines should be the thing. It adds more variety to the Guard. But if GW decides to do so, the should do the same thing to other factions as well.

SM already have their version of Doctrines.

And in many cases, if you take any non-UM or their special Detachments(Talon Strike Force, etc)...you entirely lose access to "Combat Doctrines"(Assault, Tactical, or Devastator Doctrines) since they tied them to Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, Gladius Strike Force, and Battle Demi-Company.

Yes, but those Combat Doctrines are only available by default to Ultramarines. Other Chapters can get their own Tactics +1 Ultramarine-lite tactics through Formations. Formations aren't the default.

I think by Doctrines, Hawky refers to a Chapter Tactics equivalent.

And IG infantry suck, and need a boost.

Which won't be solved with Doctrines. Doctrines, in C: IG from the post-Eye of Terror book?

Remember that it wasn't just "Take X Doctrines for Carapace Armor, Y for Sharpshooter, etc". It was:

"You have to take Stormtroopers, Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Platoons, Priests, Enginseers, Sanctioned Psykers, Conscript Platoons, Ogryn Squads, Rough Rider Squadrons, and Ratling Squads as a Doctrine". If people want that setup back, they've deluded themselves into remembering "the good old times" without remembering that this system had some massive drawbacks.

Not really massive if you weren't going to take those units anyway. I would gladly support the idea of units being locked and needing to spend a Doctrine Point (to use a working name) to unlock them.
Doctrine points could buy equipment for the army, skills, unit unlocks, etc etc, and I'd love such a system.

Had a thought; close order drill can allow reroll to wound rolls for lasguns if the squad is big enough. To encourage and reward big combined infantry squads. When you allow rerolls, lasguns become more deadly without becoming more powerful, weird as that sounds.

Squad of 30 IG (assuming 3 specials and a sergeant) have 26 lasguns, shooting at close range with first rank fire. That's 78 shots, with an average of 39 hits. Normally against T4 targets that would only result in 13 wounds. But with rerolls, it becomes 21.7 wounds. That's seven dead marines right there. We can't fight in assault but if we can shoot well near assault then IG infantry might become more worthwhile.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Had a thought; close order drill can allow reroll to wound rolls for lasguns if the squad is big enough. To encourage and reward big combined infantry squads. When you allow rerolls, lasguns become more deadly without becoming more powerful, weird as that sounds.

Squad of 30 IG (assuming 3 specials and a sergeant) have 26 lasguns, shooting at close range with first rank fire. That's 78 shots, with an average of 39 hits. Normally against T4 targets that would only result in 13 wounds. But with rerolls, it becomes 21.7 wounds. That's seven dead marines right there. We can't fight in assault but if we can shoot well near assault then IG infantry might become more worthwhile.

Some people don't want to play combined squads. That's not exclusively how the guard fights.

I know. This is just one doctrine idea for one play style.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Had a thought; close order drill can allow reroll to wound rolls for lasguns if the squad is big enough. To encourage and reward big combined infantry squads. When you allow rerolls, lasguns become more deadly without becoming more powerful, weird as that sounds.

Squad of 30 IG (assuming 3 specials and a sergeant) have 26 lasguns, shooting at close range with first rank fire. That's 78 shots, with an average of 39 hits. Normally against T4 targets that would only result in 13 wounds. But with rerolls, it becomes 21.7 wounds. That's seven dead marines right there. We can't fight in assault but if we can shoot well near assault then IG infantry might become more worthwhile.

Close Order Drill existed in the Doctrines book.
It had nothing to do with size of the squads or wounding or whatever.

It gave the unit +1 LD and +1 Initiative...but required you to have everyone right on top of each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

That's the "massive drawbacks" for the Gladius, alongside of a mandatory Auxiliary choice.

Yes I knew that too. Whilst the LD boast would be handy, +1 initiative isn't that useful because they can't fight in assault period. And requiring them all to be in base to base contact is annoying. This is a more useful and up to date version.

I think you should be able to take veteran platoons. And you should be able to take nothing but one platoon for smaller games.

I like organizing platoons.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I think you should be able to take veteran platoons. And you should be able to take nothing but one platoon for smaller games.

I like organizing platoons.

Well the Infantry platoon is very similar to formations as it is now.
I see no real reason why it wouldn't be one in an updated codex.

In fact they could simply remove the platoon command squad and company command squad and replace with a HQ role "Command Squad" (No real need for multiple entries for what is effectively the same unit)
Veterans could just be an upgrade for all the basic squads (Veteran Heavy weapon squads anyone?) similar to how Kabalite Trueborn and Bloodbrides are for Dark Eldar Warriors/Wyches

Then the other squads that make up the Infantry platoon could have their battlefield roles changed so they could be deployed in a CAD with more flexibility (If you chose to)
For example I'd Imagine Heavy weapon squads ending up in Heavy support and Special weapon squads as Elites

They could even add formations for more specialised platoons (Heavy weapon platoon comes to mind)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

... so basically an emperor's shield company?

ccs + commissar lord + 1 maxed out platoon (except conscripts) + 2 ogryns/bullgryns.
2 hqs
1+5+3+3+2 = 15 more infantry units
1.objective secured
2.the detachment can once per game use a doctrine to auto-pass all frfsrf orders issued to the detachment.
3.infantry squads leaving transports can join other infantry squads to form combined squads

auxiliary:
3 units of ratlings that get +1 cover until they move

full detachment bonus: every squad gets free chimeras/tauroxes

Less than 1250 pts and you get 21 free transports: 1365 points of free chimeras.

But you take bad units like ogryns and heavy weapon squads and all that so it's balanced.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Less than 1250 pts and you get 21 free transports: 1365 points of free chimeras. But you take bad units like ogryns and heavy weapon squads and all that so it's balanced.

I think it would be best if the game at large stopped giving away "free" units for taking specific formations. It doesn't really resolve anything. Bad units will still be bad, and the only time they will be fielded is in those formations where they are free. Instead, they should make units like ogryn & heavy weapons teams worth taking. All HWT teams need for example are a significant points reduction, ability to receive orders inside vehicles & ability to be taken outside of platoons. Boom, viable.

Or even easier, cut IG infantry costs in half, add Warhound Titan as a Platoon option. Problem solved!

Does people think the Vendetta will dissapear? It's not in the "death from the sky" or "Imperial agents" supplements and the box doesn't support it, you have to convert it on your own. I have one converted and I don't want it to dissapear.

 Nerak wrote:
Does people think the Vendetta will dissapear? It's not in the "death from the sky" or "Imperial agents" supplements and the box doesn't support it, you have to convert it on your own. I have one converted and I don't want it to dissapear.

I highly doubt it. While it was absent in the supplements, we'll likely see it again in the next IG codex. Worst case scenario, just use it as a proxy for valkyrie/vulture or another flyer.

I'm not sure about the vendetta. After what happened to the griffin and colossus...

Actually, somebody please calm my nerves. There's zero chance of the IG ever being tomb kinged is there? Part of their appeal is ordinary people trying to fight the horrors of the 41st millennium. You can never achieve that with marines who are to all intents and purposes monsters themselves. Even the stormcast in AoS were ordinary people once and retain memories of that. Marines never got the chance to be normal.

So since the IG are the only ones who can explore that angle they're likely to stay right?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not sure about the vendetta. After what happened to the griffin and colossus...

Actually, somebody please calm my nerves. There's zero chance of the IG ever being tomb kinged is there? Part of their appeal is ordinary people trying to fight the horrors of the 41st millennium. You can never achieve that with marines who are to all intents and purposes monsters themselves. Even the stormcast in AoS were ordinary people once and retain memories of that. Marines never got the chance to be normal.

So since the IG are the only ones who can explore that angle they're likely to stay right?

They blew up the iconic IG planet, and have released six new heroes of the imperium, none of which are IG. Of course, they had to fit in such major factions as Sisters of Battle, Ordo Hereticus, Deathwatch, and Admech.

I'm a little nervous myself now.

 Polonius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not sure about the vendetta. After what happened to the griffin and colossus...

Actually, somebody please calm my nerves. There's zero chance of the IG ever being tomb kinged is there? Part of their appeal is ordinary people trying to fight the horrors of the 41st millennium. You can never achieve that with marines who are to all intents and purposes monsters themselves. Even the stormcast in AoS were ordinary people once and retain memories of that. Marines never got the chance to be normal.

So since the IG are the only ones who can explore that angle they're likely to stay right?

They blew up the iconic IG planet, and have released six new heroes of the imperium, none of which are IG. Of course, they had to fit in such major factions as Sisters of Battle, Ordo Hereticus, Deathwatch, and Admech.

I'm a little nervous myself now.

Yeah, we are next on the Tomb King list, and second on the Squatting list.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not sure about the vendetta. After what happened to the griffin and colossus...

Actually, somebody please calm my nerves. There's zero chance of the IG ever being tomb kinged is there? Part of their appeal is ordinary people trying to fight the horrors of the 41st millennium. You can never achieve that with marines who are to all intents and purposes monsters themselves. Even the stormcast in AoS were ordinary people once and retain memories of that. Marines never got the chance to be normal.

So since the IG are the only ones who can explore that angle they're likely to stay right?

My guess is that the destruction of Cadia was necessary in order to justify either creating a new regiment which will become the replacement for Cadia or they plan to shift focus and support the older IG regiments in plastic. I don't see IG going the way of the Dodo, unless GW wants to lose alot of money. IG attracts interest from all kinds of different players. From tread heads, to people who like an underdog, to those who like to play from a human perspective. Also, if a 40K movie ever were to hit the big screen in any real capacity it would be from the IG perspective. Its the only way people who aren't familiar with 40k could relate and truly understand how hopeless/grimdark the setting is. Space marines are legend for most of the imperium, so if it was shot via space marine perspective the audience would immediately think they were common & there would be an emotional disconnect because they are superhumans, unlike us.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

... so basically an emperor's shield company?

More like two Emperor's Shield Companies, but one with a Commissar and one with a CCS.

Oh, and an Emperor's Shield Platoon as the Auxiliary.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm not sure about the vendetta. After what happened to the griffin and colossus...

Actually, somebody please calm my nerves. There's zero chance of the IG ever being tomb kinged is there? Part of their appeal is ordinary people trying to fight the horrors of the 41st millennium. You can never achieve that with marines who are to all intents and purposes monsters themselves. Even the stormcast in AoS were ordinary people once and retain memories of that. Marines never got the chance to be normal.

So since the IG are the only ones who can explore that angle they're likely to stay right?

They blew up the iconic IG planet, and have released six new heroes of the imperium, none of which are IG. Of course, they had to fit in such major factions as Sisters of Battle, Ordo Hereticus, Deathwatch, and Admech.

I'm a little nervous myself now.

Interestingly enough, there's a lot more going on than "just" Cadia blowing up.

Catachan's smack dab in the path of an Ork Waagh! led by Kaptin Badrukk and well...

Without spoiling anything for Atillan Rough Rider fans, if someone you know has "Fracture of Biel-Tan"? Ask to read the blurb on pg18.

As for squatting/Tomb Kinging/whatever the kids are calling it these days...

I'm not concerned. I was a bit let down by the lack of an IG character in this stuff so far, but...we have a ways to go I think before a new edition. Whatever is happening this May as part of the "Inner Circle" thing GW North America is doing will be an interesting enlightenment.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Remember that it wasn't just "Take X Doctrines for Carapace Armor, Y for Sharpshooter, etc". It was:

"You have to take Stormtroopers, Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Platoons, Priests, Enginseers, Sanctioned Psykers, Conscript Platoons, Ogryn Squads, Rough Rider Squadrons, and Ratling Squads as a Doctrine". If people want that setup back, they've deluded themselves into remembering "the good old times" without remembering that this system had some massive drawbacks.

How is this a drawback? Didn't need Stormtroopers or special weapon squads since I could deep strike Veterans with more weapons than ST and better BS than SW (and yes, they filled an Elite slot, but so did Stormtroopers..). You've been claiming we should drop several items on that list anyways, so no loss there, by your standards. And you are assuming that they would copy that format...
As anecdotal evidence for the doctrines system, I fielded IG in multiple GW US Grand tourneys during that time frame, usually played in 3-5 per year. Never lost more than one game in any GT while playing my Guard with that codex, and several times went undefeated through 5-7 game tourneys. Finished as high as 5th (and my painting sucks for that level of competition - ie mid-range, so it was all from the battle points and sportsmanship scores.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

Well, if I got free transports then six infantry units would be a small price to pay.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

Well, if I got free transports then six infantry units would be a small price to pay.

Let's say in a perfect world, it gives you Chimeras OR Taurox as your transport options for "freebies". With me so far?

Rolling Blunder: If you take two <Insert name of Battle Demi-Company Equivalents here>, one with a Tank Commander and one with a Company Command Squad then it forms a <Insert name of full sized equivalent here>. As a result, any units within the <insert name of full sized equivalent here> that can take a Chimera or Taurox can take one at no points cost.

So. You get your "six infantry unit" tax. How many of them can actually take a transport in C: AM?

That's the problem with the Gladius that people don't seem to ever grasp. Many of the big choices that people take and that others complain about(Centurions and Bikers, for example)?
They can't get any of that stuff. It ends up applying just to the Tactical Squads--and they're still paying for any upgrades to the vehicles themselves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

Well, if I got free transports then six infantry units would be a small price to pay.

Let's say in a perfect world, it gives you Chimeras OR Taurox as your transport options for "freebies". With me so far?

Eh, I honestly do not care. Just having free Chimeras (who takes the Taurox - it is useless) would be a huge boon to my army, allowing my veterans and my Company Command section to become mobile whilst giving me a reserve of free transports to act as a firebase/replacement for a knocked out Chimera (gained because Techpriests, Lord Commissar's, Ogryns and the like can take them as an option, but will usually never use them). Hell, a chimera is 65 points, naked. 65 times 9 is 585 points. That is 585 points that I am not having to spend, 585 points that can go into more things. Hell, and that is jus using the things that can take them that I use at the moment and going off the top of my head. With those extra 585 points I can get more Stormtrooper units, more Primaris Psykers, Tech priests, etc. I can really bring a fully mechanised company to the board. More Infantry too. So more Chimeras.

Actually feth it, I will take that formation now. Dont bother to wrap it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Considering the "massive drawbacks" in Gladius, I would be happy to pay a similar price for similar benefit to my IG forces.

Okay so you want to be required to take the equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads, two infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice, and one each of specific characters?

Well, if I got free transports then six infantry units would be a small price to pay.

Let's say in a perfect world, it gives you Chimeras OR Taurox as your transport options for "freebies". With me so far?

Rolling Blunder: If you take two <Insert name of Battle Demi-Company Equivalents here>, one with a Tank Commander and one with a Company Command Squad then it forms a <Insert name of full sized equivalent here>. As a result, any units within the <insert name of full sized equivalent here> that can take a Chimera or Taurox can take one at no points cost.

So. You get your "six infantry unit" tax. How many of them can actually take a transport in C: AM?

That's the problem with the Gladius that people don't seem to ever grasp. Many of the big choices that people take and that others complain about(Centurions and Bikers, for example)?
They can't get any of that stuff. It ends up applying just to the Tactical Squads--and they're still paying for any upgrades to the vehicles themselves.

Well, based on YOUR requirement of the "equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads", which for IG should (IMO) mean 6x Infantry Squads or Veteran Squads, then it looks like at least six of them would get free transports. And since the standard core for my current 1500+ list is two x platoons with three infantry Squads each... So yeah, works for me.

Guess we need to know what YOU define as the IG equivalent of a "Tactical Squad" or a "infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice" before we can accurately answer your question tho... As for your "Rolling Blunder" hypothetical situation, well, what does this "Demi-Company Equivalent" consist of? Is it reuired to take one platoon? Two platoons? Or can it just be two Veteran squads? Or what? It is rather difficult to answer your hypothetical question without knowing what units are involved... But you knew that, right?

 don_mondo wrote:

Well, based on YOUR requirement of the "equivalent of 6x Tactical Squads", which for IG should (IMO) mean 6x Infantry Squads or Veteran Squads, then it looks like at least six of them would get free transports. And since the standard core for my current 1500+ list is two x platoons with three infantry Squads each... So yeah, works for me.

Guess we need to know what YOU define as the IG equivalent of a "Tactical Squad"

Given that BDCs don't let you take Scouts or Crusader Squads, it would have to be an Infantry Platoon. They go for the "basic/iconic" bit.

or a "infantry-based Fast Attack+Heavy Support choice" before we can accurately answer your question tho... As for your "Rolling Blunder" hypothetical situation, well, what does this "Demi-Company Equivalent" consist of? Is it required to take one platoon? Two platoons? Or can it just be two Veteran squads? Or what?

Hey, I don't ask you the hard questions when you're just waking up. Chill!

IF I had to make a ballpark, completely off of the cuff Battle Demi-Company equivalent for AM?

Astra Militarum Demi-Regiment
-1x Company Command Squad or Tank Commander
-0-1 Regimental Advisors
-1x Ratling, Ogryn, Bullgryn, or Militarum Tempestus Squad
-3x Infantry Platoons
-1x Sentinel Squadron, Rough Rider Squad, Hellhound Squadron
-0-1 Leman Russ Squadron, Hydra Squadron, Deathstrike, etc

Does that help for your purposes?

It is rather difficult to answer your hypothetical question without knowing what units are involved... But you knew that, right?

I did, which is why I would rather have just kept discussing some of the mistaken understandings surrounding the Gladius by itself without calling for a "Demi-Company Equivalent" or whatever.

It's extremely difficult to do 1:1 comparisons between any of the newer books with how they're organized versus the way outdated Guard book.

I do actually understand the difficulty in drawing the direct comparisons, given the differences in the force organizations. Given your list for a Demi- above, looks like a minimum of 9 free Chimeras (the three Platoons) and up to 18 just for the platoons, given a large enough game, with two more being possible (CCS, Scions squad - or more if this is platoon instead of squad). So that makes up to 20 free Chimeras per Demi-, points allowing for the required units? Assuming any transport for any unit capable of taking one in the Demi- is free. Yeah, even I think that's a bit too much.

Anyways, while we're on this track, and based on some of the comments above re Space Marines, what about a 'baseline' regiment, equating to the Smurfs and then several 'alternative' regiments, focused on a particular aspect. Say one for Mechanized (Tallarn?), one for artillery (Valhallan, old fluff had them very mortar heavy), Light Infantry (Catachan), and so on. The baseline should satisfy those that want a 'stricter' build, while the alternatives would satisfy those that want to play a different style. Hell, even GW should like it as they could sell all the 'alternatives' separately and make more money... Let's see, who is still at the studio that I know that I can pitch this to...

 don_mondo wrote:
I do actually understand the difficulty in drawing the direct comparisons, given the differences in the force organizations. Given your list for a Demi- above, looks like a minimum of 9 free Chimeras (the three Platoons) and up to 18 just for the platoons, given a large enough game, with two more being possible (CCS, Scions squad - or more if this is platoon instead of squad). So that makes up to 20 free Chimeras per Demi-, points allowing for the required units? Assuming any transport for any unit capable of taking one in the Demi- is free. Yeah, even I think that's a bit too much.

Yeah, a big part of the issue doing the comparison is that IG don't have any Infantry in FA or HS. Elites do have such.

An easier comparison would be if there were a special dedicated transport for Ogryn/Bullgryn which wasn't on the list of "free transports" or if units could get Valkyries as DTs.

Anyways, while we're on this track, and based on some of the comments above re Space Marines, what about a 'baseline' regiment, equating to the Smurfs and then several 'alternative' regiments, focused on a particular aspect. Say one for Mechanized (Tallarn?), one for artillery (Valhallan, old fluff had them very mortar heavy), Light Infantry (Catachan), and so on. The baseline should satisfy those that want a 'stricter' build, while the alternatives would satisfy those that want to play a different style. Hell, even GW should like it as they could sell all the 'alternatives' separately and make more money... Let's see, who is still at the studio that I know that I can pitch this to...

Honestly, I really don't want to see any of that.

People think that the Space Marines book gives options. Sure, there are options.

But when was the last time you ran into someone using Salamanders, BT, or Raven Guard versus someone running Iron Hands, UM, or White Scars?
When was the last time you saw Devastators in a BDC that wasn't part of a Gladius with free transports? Devs with HBs rather than Grav Cannons?

"Options" aren't. Not in this edition.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, I really don't want to see any of that.

People think that the Space Marines book gives options. Sure, there are options.

But when was the last time you ran into someone using Salamanders, BT, or Raven Guard versus someone running Iron Hands, UM, or White Scars?
When was the last time you saw Devastators in a BDC that wasn't part of a Gladius with free transports? Devs with HBs rather than Grav Cannons?

The last time I played 40k, funnily enough, which was about a month ago.
I guess that argument falls flat.

"Options" aren't. Not in this edition.

Rules as written, there are options. There's no way you can say there aren't. There are some options better than others, but they remain options.

These regimental tactics would be massively beneficial to people who want to have a fun, fluffy game.

Not everyone wants to play tournament WAAC-hammer. As such, I think regimental traits would be extremely good to have. And if all traits were equally effective, with no obviously advantageous ones (Iron Hands/White Scars), then what would the issue be.