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 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, I really don't want to see any of that.

People think that the Space Marines book gives options. Sure, there are options.

But when was the last time you ran into someone using Salamanders, BT, or Raven Guard versus someone running Iron Hands, UM, or White Scars?

Black Templars, last month...

 don_mondo wrote:
I do actually understand the difficulty in drawing the direct comparisons

It's pretty simple if you simply focus on the net cost/benefit. SM get FREE Transports for taking Tac/Assault/Dev units which have no obvious penalties of stuff that is pure crap, and can be comfortably min-maxed in a non-fluffy way (Rhinos only, for 10-SM units only). This basically is a -50% discount on their force, which itself is not unfairly costed to begin with.

Therefore, IG should get something like a -60% net discount (because Platoons and IG Transports actually are unfairly costed at the moment) if they take certain broadly effective forces, such as a regular Platoon with 3 Tactical Squads, a Heavy and a Special.

Just remember that giving free chimeras to guard makes a standard squad cost -15 points.

Could effectively play and 1850+550 SM list vs effectively 3700 points of guard. And a free chimera will ruin a free razor back every day.

I feel that would just be way too op, even compared to stuff like scatter bikes and riptides.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Just remember that giving free chimeras to guard makes a standard squad cost -15 points.

Could effectively play and 1850+550 SM list vs effectively 3700 points of guard. And a free chimera will ruin a free razor back every day.

I feel that would just be way too op, even compared to stuff like scatter bikes and riptides.

That might be about right for Riptides and scatterbikes.

Thing is, 3000 pts of Mech IG is probably a fair match against that 2400 pts of SM Gladius.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
I do actually understand the difficulty in drawing the direct comparisons

It's pretty simple if you simply focus on the net cost/benefit. SM get FREE Transports for taking Tac/Assault/Dev units which have no obvious penalties of stuff that is pure crap, and can be comfortably min-maxed in a non-fluffy way (Rhinos only, for 10-SM units only). This basically is a -50% discount on their force, which itself is not unfairly costed to begin with.

Therefore, IG should get something like a -60% net discount (because Platoons and IG Transports actually are unfairly costed at the moment) if they take certain broadly effective forces, such as a regular Platoon with 3 Tactical Squads, a Heavy and a Special.

Captain / Chaplain are the tax. A really tiny one, but it's there.
Not sure what you mean with "min-maxed in a non-fluffy way" in combination with "Rhinos only, for 10-SM units only" - that's the opposite of minmaxing. Razorbacks with 5-man tac squads is min-maxed. Rhinos with 10 Marines inside are pretty fluffy.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Just remember that giving free chimeras to guard makes a standard squad cost -15 points.

Could effectively play and 1850+550 SM list vs effectively 3700 points of guard. And a free chimera will ruin a free razor back every day.

I feel that would just be way too op, even compared to stuff like scatter bikes and riptides.

No, free Chimeras would barely even scratch the surface of what needs doing to the guard.

You are also forgetting that A) It is apparently perfectly okay for Marines to bring free stuff, and B) Chimeras can be boltered to death from the sides, have minimal armour and cost 65 points a bite.

A chimera is not worth a razorback. The latter has better BS, better (twin-linked) weaponary, better side armour and carries marines, not squishy guardsmen. All the chinera has is better front armour and a bigger capacity, which aren't worth that much today.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
A chimera is not worth a razorback. The latter has better BS, better (twin-linked) weaponary, better side armour and carries marines, not squishy guardsmen. All the chinera has is better front armour and a bigger capacity, which aren't worth that much today.

The chimera technically also has more firepower, but at BS3 with no TL it almost never does anything, whilst the Razorback is BS4 TL

Chimeras do quite a bit in my games.


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 Future War Cultist wrote:
A chimera is not worth a razorback. The latter has better BS, better (twin-linked) weaponary, better side armour and carries marines, not squishy guardsmen. All the chinera has is better front armour and a bigger capacity, which aren't worth that much today.

It's 7th ed . Marines are squishy, too. Everything is squishy except for the favored few.

I want new praetorian models.

I'm suddenly in love with the praetorians.

I said before that praetorians are now more 40k looking than either the cadians or catachans. They just need a bit of work to bring them up to the modern standards. That game, Order 1886, would be a good of what they could potentially look like.

GW is British and it should embrace that. Bring out the redcoats!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I said before that praetorians are now more 40k looking than either the cadians or catachans. They just need a bit of work to bring them up to the modern standards. That game, Order 1886, would be a good of what they could potentially look like.

GW is British and it should embrace that. Bring out the redcoats!

I'm currently doing an experiment with a hybrid Cadian-Praetorian command squad. The troopers are Cadians painted red and blue while the officer is an old praetorian.

I'm dirt poor and can hardly afford the one old dude.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I said before that praetorians are now more 40k looking than either the cadians or catachans. They just need a bit of work to bring them up to the modern standards. That game, Order 1886, would be a good of what they could potentially look like.

GW is British and it should embrace that. Bring out the redcoats!

I'm currently doing an experiment with a hybrid Cadian-Praetorian command squad. The troopers are Cadians painted red and blue while the officer is an old praetorian.

I'm dirt poor and can hardly afford the one old dude.

Try these from Curious Constructs:

http://kirtongames.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=64_160&product_id=1180

I've not tried it but if you're a dab hand with converting, these could look top after a head swap with (relatively) cheaper Mordians.

These are ones I did with Wargames Factory Zulu War British heads on Cadian plastics a few years ago:



It could work with Warlord Zulu War British heads on Cadian bodies but there could be an issue with realistic 28mm vs heroic 28mm.

 Kanluwen wrote:
More like two Emperor's Shield Companies, but one with a Commissar and one with a CCS.

Oh, and an Emperor's Shield Platoon as the Auxiliary.

The Gladius is nowhere even CLOSE to being that expensive. Two emp's shield companies are 300 basic infantry, 6 sentinels (in singles) 6 platoon command squads, and 2 company command squads bare minimum-- and taking them bare minimum makes them INCREDIBLY weak-- the Gladius even barebones is massively superior.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I said before that praetorians are now more 40k looking than either the cadians or catachans. They just need a bit of work to bring them up to the modern standards. That game, Order 1886, would be a good of what they could potentially look like.

GW is British and it should embrace that. Bring out the redcoats!

And this is another great example of a major issue with designing the IG as a "single book".
We're talking a galaxy spanning empire. What, for you, is "more 40k" isn't for someone else.

Personally? I don't view the Praetorians/Mordians as appropriate for anything beyond a PDF. Their uniforms seem like the kind of thing that you would see in a governor's retinue, not on the battlefield "proper".

It's actually why in the past I've advocated for "Mini-dexes" for the actual Regiments. Don't put Mordian stuff in my Cadian book, and I won't put Cadian stuff in your Praetorian book.

Who said that they should make 1 new line of IG models with multiple head options to create different regiments? Because I think that would be a great idea! Especially if they made them compatible with the scion heads. There's like, 4 options right there, including beret heads.

It'd be a bad idea simply because for a lot of them the biggest variation isn't the heads but the uniforms themselves.

Same bodies, legs and arms, but different heads and shoulder options (choice of shoulder pads or epaulettes).

I don't know if that's possible but it's one idea. Some regiments have similar looking uniforms anyway.

Not
.. really?

Steel legion and DKoK are the only two that are similar enough.

Let's look at this. Cadians already exist. Catachans already exist. Valhallans would need a whole new kit. In theory Death Korp and Steel Legion could share a kit. Mordians and Praetorians could share a kit (they were literally just the same models with different heads) and rough riders (I sort of like them) could be sold with different bodies and heads. Really there are only 3 IG infantry squads that they sell in GW stores. Command squad, infantry squad and heavy weapons squad. The heavy weapons themselves could be shared so going from Cadians that's only 4 sprues (I think).

And on the argument that Praetorians uniforms are stupid and riding horses is suicidal, I know. I like the suicidal tactics. It embraces he meaninglessness of human life in the 41st millennium. And on the table top it won't work often. But when it does, it's glorious.


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 Melissia wrote:
Not
.. really?

Steel legion and DKoK are the only two that are similar enough.

Praetorians are literally just Mordians with different heads.

If you stuck ushanka heads on DKoK trenchcoat bodies do you think they'd look suitably Valhallan?

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Let's look at this. Cadians already exist. Catachans already exist. Valhallans would need a whole new kit. In theory Death Korp and Steel Legion could share a kit. Mordians and Praetorians could share a kit (they were literally just the same models with different heads) and rough riders (I sort of like them) could be sold with different bodies and heads. Really there are only 3 IG infantry squads that they sell in GW stores. Command squad, infantry squad and heavy weapons squad.

And here's the problem right here.

If you want multiple regiments, you're looking at multiple boxes for the exact same thing.

The heavy weapons themselves could be shared so going from Cadians that's only 4 sprues (I think).

Heavy weapons are their own sprue right now, and I don't expect the Heavy Weapons Squad box to remain as it is right now. I would be very surprised if we don't see a redone Infantry Squad box with Heavy Weapons included and the Heavy Weapons Squad box redone entirely to be more like the Devastator box.

And on the argument that Praetorians uniforms are stupid and riding horses is suicidal, I know. I like the suicidal tactics. It embraces he meaninglessness of human life in the 41st millennium. And on the table top it won't work often.

Try ever. It won't work ever.

 Kanluwen wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Let's look at this. Cadians already exist. Catachans already exist. Valhallans would need a whole new kit. In theory Death Korp and Steel Legion could share a kit. Mordians and Praetorians could share a kit (they were literally just the same models with different heads) and rough riders (I sort of like them) could be sold with different bodies and heads. Really there are only 3 IG infantry squads that they sell in GW stores. Command squad, infantry squad and heavy weapons squad.

And here's the problem right here.

If you want multiple regiments, you're looking at multiple boxes for the exact same thing.

The heavy weapons themselves could be shared so going from Cadians that's only 4 sprues (I think).

Heavy weapons are their own sprue right now, and I don't expect the Heavy Weapons Squad box to remain as it is right now. I would be very surprised if we don't see a redone Infantry Squad box with Heavy Weapons included and the Heavy Weapons Squad box redone entirely to be more like the Devastator box.

And on the argument that Praetorians uniforms are stupid and riding horses is suicidal, I know. I like the suicidal tactics. It embraces he meaninglessness of human life in the 41st millennium. And on the table top it won't work often.

Try ever. It won't work ever.

Can you prove that? Eventually with stupid infantry only lists you end up in a position where the enemy just can't mathematically put out enough firepower to kill all of your men in 5-7 turns.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
More like two Emperor's Shield Companies, but one with a Commissar and one with a CCS.

Oh, and an Emperor's Shield Platoon as the Auxiliary.

The Gladius is nowhere even CLOSE to being that expensive. Two emp's shield companies are 300 basic infantry, 6 sentinels (in singles) 6 platoon command squads, and 2 company command squads bare minimum-- and taking them bare minimum makes them INCREDIBLY weak-- the Gladius even barebones is massively superior.

Yet again Melissia makes a very good point.
A barebones force like the one suggested by Kanluwen would cost a grand total of 2080 points:
300 (30 10 men sections) infantry, coming to 1500 points
6 Scout Sentinels at 35 points each, coming to 210
6 Platoon Command Sections at 30 points each coming to 180
2 Company Command Sections at 65 points each, coming to 130 points

So, barebones and without upgrades the proposed formation comes to 2080 points. It is vast, unwieldy, has almost no mobility (the only mobile units being the outflanking Scout Sentinels), has no real anti infantry firepower (amassed Lasguns might kill a couple of MEQ's a turn) no anti tank firepower (unless we count the Sentinels Multilasers, and then good look doing anything at BS3, S6 - or being around long enough to do anything {2HP, open topped}) and will die to blast spam, high ROF weapons, hell, even the much derided Bolters will suddenly turn into amazing death machines.

So, for all that I would be wanting free transports and Obsec. And free upgrades. And a free Leman Russ per platoon. At the very least.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
If you stuck ushanka heads on DKoK trenchcoat bodies do you think they'd look suitably Valhallan?

That would probably work.

I forgot about Vostroyans. They're sort of unique.

At 2080 pts, minimum, it's not even playable in a 1850-pt game, whereas Gladius is.

That's the sort of difference that I'm talking about.

The Gladius-equivalent for IG needs to be a non-gakky formation that is still fundamentally viable, costing around 1250 pts to gives 750 pts of bonuses.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
At 2080 pts, minimum, it's not even playable in a 1850-pt game, whereas Gladius is.

That's the sort of difference that I'm talking about.

The Gladius-equivalent for IG needs to be a non-gakky formation that is still fundamentally viable, costing around 1250 pts to gives 750 pts of bonuses.

Yeah yeah yeah, we went over this last page.

I gave an example that was using the only, bare minimum closest parallel there is. End of story.

Also, the Gladius is only playable in 1850 because you can cheese the requirements. Requiring 10 man Tactical Squads or the Command Squad in the BDC would go a long way towards "unbreaking" the Gladius(and to an extent, the War Convocation)
The build of Gladius I've seen played the most has been:
BDC
-Captain
3x 5 man Tac Squads, outfitted to taste.
-Assault Squad
-CentDev Squad

BDC
-Chaplain
3x 5 man Tac Squad, outfitted to taste
-Assault Squad
-CentDev Squad

Lib Conclave
10th OR 1st Company Task Forces for your Aux. Or to go even more on the cheap; Suppression Force.
Rhinos OR Razorbacks for the BDCs

That's it. That's the army, barring any Allied CADs.There's a lot of ways to "fix" that easily.

It's also worth noting that the ESIC would be viable if they hadn't worded it with "Infantry Squads" but instead "5 squads, barring Conscripts".

ESIC would be fine if it were the first version:
- CCS
- 3 Platoons (could be minimum PCS & 2 squads)

Gains Fortifications & On My Mark for "FREE".

I think it's up to GW to design and produce a Guardsmen model that is very plain and basic, and up to the gamer to use their imagination to come up with a way to make their models suitably different. Don't like Cadians? Me neither. But you'd be amazed at what a simple headswap, green stuff, or added bitz can do to really make a model your own. I think they've achieved this pretty well, just like I think that I achieved a pretty good result in modifying my guardsmen to be my own.

@Kan, clearly it mandated Infantry Squads because the very thought of being able to shoot 3 Autocannons from a Heavy Weapons Squad and then move them would have been much too powerful.