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The old 3rd/4th ed rules for them where good. The team consisted of the gun and two crew members, all separate models. The gun couldnt be hit (but making it T7, W2, 3+ would be fair), but if the crew where killed then the gun ceased functioning.

 Polonius wrote:
The basic platoon has two major problems: low damage output, and low durability outside of numbers. With the d6 system 40k is built on, it's just too hard to dramatically increase either on the statline, which leaves special rules. IG has relatively few, and platoons have only one (combined squads), which gives us a bit more room to play. Here's my modest proposal:

Make Orders occur automatically, without a leadership test. This allows the IG to rely on them, and eliminates rolling dice.

Buff heavy weapon teams. Make them T5, so they're not as easily ID'd or whittled down by small arms. I've toyed with the idea of teams counting as twinlinked or BS4 to represent the loader, but that might be too much.

Drop the cost of power weapons to 10 pts. Drop the cost of plasma guns to 10 pts. Bump Grenade Launchers up to Assault 2 (an easy fix, right?) Bump Mortars up to heavy 2 at the same time. Make Heavy bolters 5pts, MLs 10pts, and Lascannons 15 points.

Keep ready access to priests, commissars, and divination psykers.

For LR tanks, the problem isn't durability (although it's not really a strength any more either) but awkward weapon combinations and underwhelming damage output. I'd drop the cost (a demolisher can push 200pts...). My idea: give the turret weapon split fire, and allow heavy to override the ordnance causing snap shots. So you can shoot your turret gun at one target, and your sponsons at another. Aside from that, I'd just tweak a few things: Vanquiser gets AP1 so it can actually kill some tanks, executioner loses gets hot, HB sponsons get cheaper.

This is broadly sound. If I were doing it:

"Undifferentiated Mass" - IG are immune to "closest first" and individual targeting. The IG player always chooses which models to remove in any unit. IG. Mind War against a Colonel results in a dead Guardsman, not a dead Colonel. Snipers targeting a Lascannon only ever get Guardsman or Loader.

Close Combat, Heavy & Special Weapons costs ALL drop by 5 pts each across the board; HB & flamer fit is "free".

Doctrines - YES, duh. 1st is FREE, 2nd is +5 pts/unit, 3rd is +10 pts/unit.

Orders - replaces an Officer's (next) shooting action. Instead of shooting, Sergeants can make one other model in unit twin-linked, Veteran Sergeants make that weapon twin-linked & AP1.

Platoons - All squad costs drop by 10 pts per unit.

Heavy Weapons - go back to being separate T3 models. Instead of shooting, each Loader makes one weapon twin-linked.

Leman Russes - cut costs, remove Gets Hot!, add Lumbering Bememoth; sponsons target separately, but at BS2.

I feel like Heavy Weapon Squads should stay 2W units but have something like an "entrenched" special rule, where they get T5 if they choose to remain stationary in the movement phase, to represent them setting up beside sandbags, fortifications, etc. That way it doesn't seem weird that they have the toughness of a warboss even when they're running from place to place, they should only have that resilience when they set up for shooting.

Some of those suggestions for weapon teams seem more suitable for something like the forge world rapier weapon. The big radio controlled tracked thing?

Also if they're remaking weapon teams then it's a good chance to improve them. Mortars are currently meh and could never stand to compete with a Wyvern. But if you bumped them up to strength 5 AP 5 and justified it by making the weapon bigger then maybe they'd see more action.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like Heavy Weapon Squads should stay 2W units but have something like an "entrenched" special rule, where they get T5 if they choose to remain stationary in the movement phase, to represent them setting up beside sandbags, fortifications, etc. That way it doesn't seem weird that they have the toughness of a warboss even when they're running from place to place, they should only have that resilience when they set up for shooting.

I've got to get it off my chest that as an ork fanboy the basic ogryns having the same strength, wounds and toughness as my biggest, baddest ork needles me a bit. Just a little bit. I'm not saying it should be changed, it's just one of those things.

Then they'll release a new codex for the Catachan jungle fighters and they'll all be S4 while my boyz are still S3, and I'll curl up under my blanket and weep.

Anything that could be done about special weapon squads?

Apart from giving them flamers.... potentially demo charges, and placing them in a flier makes them kinda useless.

Most heavy and special weapons need point reductions, having guard pay the same prices as space marines doesn't make sense seeing one in BS3 T3 5+ and the other is BS4 T4 3+ means there's already an inherent unbalance. Aka space marines getting more durable special and heavy weapons.

I think giving guard better orders, stuff that stops them running, point reductions for many of their vehicles, especially the humble chimera.

But then again.... I can't help but think, shouldn't we do something that would enable an increase in points for the average guardsmen and reduce the blobbyness required for the formations that are any good? I know GW would never do this, but horde armies are getting so damn expensive these days and I wouldn't be surprised if that also puts some people off them.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I can't help but think, shouldn't we do something that would enable an increase in points for the average guardsmen and reduce the blobbyness required for the formations that are any good?

No, because otherwise IG players wouldn't be able to take IKTs and Warhounds to play with the big boys.

But really, if I wanted to play elites, I'd field my Sisters. Or my Stormies. Or my SMs. Or my Eldars. Someone needs to be the worst, and I'm totally OK with IG taking that role. They just need to have the ability to make in quantity what they lack in quality.

Don't increase the points of anything in the IG. They're overpriced as they are.

Guard needs to get better, not cheaper. Of couse some things could get cheaper (Hellhound, Ogryns), but I don't want any major cost decreases. We already field more models than anybody else (Okay, maybe Orks or Nids)

 Hawky wrote:
Guard needs to get better, not cheaper.

Guard needs to get better *and* cheaper.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I can't help but think, shouldn't we do something that would enable an increase in points for the average guardsmen and reduce the blobbyness required for the formations that are any good?

No, because otherwise IG players wouldn't be able to take IKTs and Warhounds to play with the big boys.

But really, if I wanted to play elites, I'd field my Sisters. Or my Stormies. Or my SMs. Or my Eldars. Someone needs to be the worst, and I'm totally OK with IG taking that role. They just need to have the ability to make in quantity what they lack in quality.

I'm not on about elites..... but if you just made them cheaper you're starting to look at 150-300 infantry in a list. As it is I already field around 120 myself in an 1850 list, even with russes, salamanders, chimera's etc etc.

iIdon't mind there being horde armies, but by making them cheaper has practical issues in both terms of actually playing the game and the economic aspect.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Guard needs to get better *and* cheaper.

There's a sig right there.

You know the three senior officer only orders? Anyone think that it's about time the restriction was lifted? There's one idea.

Also, had another thought about orders. There's no way that we could create a two tier system whereby senior officer orders are strategic in nature (for example, nominate x amount of enemy vehicles/mcs, all units with vox casters gain hunter against them) and junior officer orders are more tactical (extra shots, pinning, move after pinning etc), and the two could be combined? So that senior officers tell units what to do and junior officers tell them how to do it?

It probably wouldn't work.

40k games should be 1500 pts, not 1850 pts. 1850 pt games are unwieldy and bloated, take too long, and lack maneuver. 1500 pts is what the game is designed for. And the power creep suggests that games should really be more like 1350 or 1250 pts to play well.

I own a couple hundred Guardsmen, and I wouldn't be adverse to fielding 150 of them in a 1500 pt game. However, that's a mono-Codex infantry-based build, and not really consistent with the new GW encouragement of Unbound forces that should include Titans and GMCs.

I also own a lot of armor, and would like to see my canonical IG army to include most of the following:
1 command group
1 non-mechanized infantry group
1 mechanized infantry group
1 artillery group
1 armor group
1 squadron air support
1 superheavy tank (or Knight)!

I like the variety

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

But then again.... I can't help but think, shouldn't we do something that would enable an increase in points for the average guardsmen and reduce the blobbyness required for the formations that are any good? I know GW would never do this, but horde armies are getting so damn expensive these days and I wouldn't be surprised if that also puts some people off them.

Yes. Enhanced bonuses for crew served HWT, bonus for massed fire, better applied cation of orders and hierarchy could all bring model count down enough to reduce game time, entry price, and transportation hassle.

You guys talk about transportation hassle, but I can't agree with that. I can comfortably bring a 220 Guardsmen, 9 Tanks, and a Superheavy or Valkyrie in a single duffle bag. It's the multiple Supers / Valks that are a challenge to transport.

Sure transportation wise it's harder than most other armies, but I manage to cope bringing about the same as John.

My main issue is inflating turn times etc and increasing the cost drastically of anyone actually collecting a guard army.

I would much rather the guard being enhanced than simply being made cheaper for those reasons. You don't intrinsically need to reduce Guardmans points, you just need to make them worth their points and make HWT and special weapons teams viable, decrease upgrade costs and a boost to orders to make the humble guardman more competitive.

I agree with Baldeagle, particularly when it comes to upgrades. A SM player would essentially sacrifice bringing one more marine to give someone a plasma gun, and the guy with the gun isn't incredibly likely to kill himself. An IG player getting a plasma gun has to sacrifice 3 guardsmen or 2 1/2 veterans.

It's even worse when you consider melee weapons, as power weapons/fists are based on the user's stats, where marines and IG pay the same prices but SM get a huge advantage, S8 AP1 for 25 pts on a sturdy guy vs S6 AP1 for 25 pts on a fragile guy.

Edit: Though of course I took a p fist in my kill team because I was too dumb to think about doing a p axe and krak grenades...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys talk about transportation hassle, but I can't agree with that. I can comfortably bring a 220 Guardsmen, 9 Tanks, and a Superheavy or Valkyrie in a single duffle bag. It's the multiple Supers / Valks that are a challenge to transport.

This is true. Infantry are much easier to pack than big models. It would be great if infantry platoons became more desirable to shift some of the pressure off of having to carry around quite so many super heavies and flyers to compete.

I also agree with Bald. I'd rather see our infantry and vehicles become better for their costs and get cheaper weapon options than to have their points cost slashed. Its already hideously expensive to build Guard unless you're an EBay god. Lets not make it worse

Just brainstorming here, but if IG units were given a slight points increase with the bonus that their wargear is free, would that be OK? Probably not.

Something like, 60pts for an infantry squad and that includes a vox caster and special weapon along with whatever the Sgt has. 60pts for 5 Stormtroopers and that includes the Tempestor's gear, a vox caster and 1 special weapon. Another 60pts buys you another 5 stormtroopers with a special. 100pts buys you a vet squad with all the trimmings too.

I personally would like to see a proper Infantry Platoon Formation (not this include sentinels because we need to sell the models crap).

Have Orders become automatic.

A Brand new and properly fleshed out regiment with a new line of models OR New plastic kits for each of the current regiments that are easy to interchange (If GW is worried about selling models, have each regiment/kit come with a single heavy and single special weapon that is preferred by the regiment like they did with the original metal models),

Have regimental traits (Like Chapter Traits), but allow you to mix and match regiments at platoon strength - maybe give each regiment a platoon and company formation with their own rule.

Could it be that they are planning on sorting out vehicle rules in 8th and that is why they are waiting to overhaul the guard, given that it is a big part of their army?

Allow you to take heavy weapons platoons and specialist platoons.

Stop focusing on objective based games and get back to actually killing the enemy.

As a side note, I think increasing the range of any small arms weapon over 24inches was a mistake, the point of 24 inches being the maximum range was so that armies would actually have to move in order get within range of the enemy with most of their weapons. Now you have basic weapons that can shoot 30+ inches and thus hit your opponent from turn one without moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addition, allow all guardsmen units to switch their Lasgun for Laspistol and close combat weapon. that alone would make a big difference and make combat units think twice before hitting a combined squad.

Oh, allow Platoon command squads to join Infantry Squads using the combined squads rule - it just makes so much more sense.

I like the idea of orders being automatic, but what would Vox Casters do? Increase the range?

I also like the idea of all officers getting all orders. That would make PCS very useful, not to mention our firepower being more serious.

It makes more sense that they would increase the range anyway.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys talk about transportation hassle, but I can't agree with that. I can comfortably bring a 220 Guardsmen, 9 Tanks, and a Superheavy or Valkyrie in a single duffle bag. It's the multiple Supers / Valks that are a challenge to transport.

This is true. Infantry are much easier to pack than big models. It would be great if infantry platoons became more desirable to shift some of the pressure off of having to carry around quite so many super heavies and flyers to compete.

No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

 master of ordinance wrote:
No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

You can do that for sure, but why stop people who would like a big army (such as myself) from being able to take one?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

You can do that for sure, but why stop people who would like a big army (such as myself) from being able to take one?

True. How about buffing both Platoons and veterans?

 master of ordinance wrote:
True. How about buffing both Platoons and veterans?

Hell yeah.

 master of ordinance wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys talk about transportation hassle, but I can't agree with that. I can comfortably bring a 220 Guardsmen, 9 Tanks, and a Superheavy or Valkyrie in a single duffle bag. It's the multiple Supers / Valks that are a challenge to transport.

This is true. Infantry are much easier to pack than big models. It would be great if infantry platoons became more desirable to shift some of the pressure off of having to carry around quite so many super heavies and flyers to compete.

No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

My IG collection is a sunk cost, so it matters not what GW charges today or tomorrow. 40k is a luxury game, and if you can't afford it, you don't play it; that said, one can certainly buy used at considerable discount. While I do not want to be forced into trying to field more than the 200+ Guardsmen I already own, I'm not opposed to bringing a company of them out to play. Provided that they are worth fielding, which is clearly not the case today. I do NOT want to bring elite forces per se, as IG is about the ordinary human against superhuman threats of all sorts, but I'm not opposed to Shock Troop (that's Cadia, BTW) and Grenadier Doctrines. To me, the big issue of playing a Company is the size and bloat of the rules. I could play a Company under 40k 3E/4E rules, but no way under 7E.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

You can do that for sure, but why stop people who would like a big army (such as myself) from being able to take one?

True. How about buffing both Platoons and veterans?

This is an excellent suggestion right here.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You guys talk about transportation hassle, but I can't agree with that. I can comfortably bring a 220 Guardsmen, 9 Tanks, and a Superheavy or Valkyrie in a single duffle bag. It's the multiple Supers / Valks that are a challenge to transport.

This is true. Infantry are much easier to pack than big models. It would be great if infantry platoons became more desirable to shift some of the pressure off of having to carry around quite so many super heavies and flyers to compete.

No. Infantry are a bugger to collect and paint and with GW's vastly over inflated prices many players cannot afford to bring that many models. Additionally I, and many other Guard players, do not want to bring vast horde lists. We want to bring elite forces, shock troops, grenadier units, A platoon instead of a company and more.

My IG collection is a sunk cost, so it matters not what GW charges today or tomorrow. 40k is a luxury game, and if you can't afford it, you don't play it; that said, one can certainly buy used at considerable discount. While I do not want to be forced into trying to field more than the 200+ Guardsmen I already own, I'm not opposed to bringing a company of them out to play. Provided that they are worth fielding, which is clearly not the case today. I do NOT want to bring elite forces per se, as IG is about the ordinary human against superhuman threats of all sorts, but I'm not opposed to Shock Troop (that's Cadia, BTW) and Grenadier Doctrines. To me, the big issue of playing a Company is the size and bloat of the rules. I could play a Company under 40k 3E/4E rules, but no way under 7E.

THIS, so much This - I want large armies of you standard issue guardsmen - If I wanted to play a small elite force I would play Space Marines. The Imperial Guardsman is meant to be the backbone of the Imperium, lets make it so that fielding them in large numbers is actually viable.

Actually, why not give the Lasgun rending so long as x number of models with lasguns firing at the target unit (x = 30, maybe more), all shooting attacks for units with lasguns must be declared at the same time, or something along those lines. It would represent so many shots firing at the target that odd shots hit vunerable spots like ammo packs, go through a drivers window slit and such like.