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Yay to Krytos getting an upgrade!

 zedmeister wrote:
Yay to Krytos getting an upgrade!

And tiger eyes didn't get nerfed, one of my regular opponents is likely pleased with that



Oh and the future looks bleak for blackshields as a concept, le sigh.

I can see that 'invisible' mutations might not be ideal for matched play...but even most AT events tend to be more relaxed and narrative in style. I think they know their player base.

 gorgon wrote:
I can see that 'invisible' mutations might not be ideal for matched play...but even most AT events tend to be more relaxed and narrative in style. I think they know their player base.

Matched play still needs to sorta draw lines somewhere, even the more permissive might not allow acastus or might ban custom legios, it's going to be very hard pretending that universal use without conversion by traitor players won't come to a head at some point. I'm not claiming to have the answers, there's plenty of rules to look at and nuance abounds but, it's a bit rich to hear someone say "custom legios are too broken or strong" as they field an army with 3-5 upgrades per titan 2-4 of which mutations with zero conversion to actually do the whole corrupted "looking" titan thing. And I'm not saying this is easy to figuer out, most titan upgrades don't really require or conjure much in terms of conversion even if people want to physically show upgrades. But we can all agree not modelling bastion shields is a far cry from a titan with 4 mutations and zero effort conversion wise. So ya, I don't think it will be simple for matched play as it would be for more narrative events/groups. And even in case of the latter, i don't think any of this is simple to navigate, its rife for subjectivity and as we all know one persons cool concept or theme is another persons deal breaker so who knows. There are some really cool mutations.

And to your point about the invisible thing, yeah, that gets silly as scale increases. Thankfully the -2 doesn't like stack with actual cover/securement or it'd be over. But it is really strong to always count as being in 50% cover for being 25% and a flat -1 is no joke.

By 'invisible' I really meant 'not WYSIWYG'.

 gorgon wrote:
By 'invisible' I really meant 'not WYSIWYG'.

Ah ok, thought you were referring to one of the better mutations but I see what you sayin. Invisible upgrades is gonna be a thing for sure.

 Crablezworth wrote:


Matched play still needs to sorta draw lines somewhere, even the more permissive might not allow acastus or might ban custom legios,

Ban the custom legios rules from Defence of Ryza?

Seriously, I would be done with this game if that happened.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:


Matched play still needs to sorta draw lines somewhere, even the more permissive might not allow acastus or might ban custom legios,

Ban the custom legios rules from Defence of Ryza?

Seriously, I would be done with this game if that happened.

I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.

I could see a requirement for corrupted titans to have all their corruptions and rules for such to be listed on a paper next to each titan terminal.

that said adding lots of mutations and upgrades will swifty drop the model count so less for an opponent to memorise (and easier to beat too unless your careful)

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I could see a requirement for corrupted titans to have all their corruptions and rules for such to be listed on a paper next to each titan terminal.

Sure but it's a lot of take in. I'm pretty confident I've got the majority of weapons for example committed to memory but I can also see them and the cards at anytime. A list is good for transparency but it's not helpful or at least, it only increases in value the more i commit all the mutations to memory but its easy to get the names of even weapons' confused so without a visual cue, my memory is only so good.

But even then, if there's no visual cues and each titan is a laundry list of upgrades and mutations, it seems taxing, especially if the tournament environment is all or mostly invisible stuff. Like we've come so far from thinking a titan of legend would throw things out of whack lol, and that's one titan out of a battle group and the differences are on the terminal.




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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
that said adding lots of mutations and upgrades will swifty drop the model count so less for an opponent to memorise (and easier to beat too unless your careful)

Sure but at like 1750-2000 it really doesn't matter, ie lets assume someone has 5 titans, they likely have hundreds of points to spend on upgrading them. Even before this, when universal upgrades became a thing with the loyalist book, it had an effect on games here, in that where you used to see a unit or two of knights to fill out points, you saw perhaps a unit or two less and a hundred points or more spent on titan upgrades. As cool as whole battle groups of corrupted titans would be, whole battle groups of unconverted normal looking traitor titans, much less so. I don't know how to limit or fix this but I could see one idea being if the trend is to not model upgrades and mutations (i don't want to single out just mutations as theres a lot of crossover) perhaps limit how many titans can take mutations or cap the amount of mutation in combination. At worse consider making them aux so 1 per maniple maybe. The reason is, unlike upgrades a lot aren't really indexed to scale so they cost the same whether on a warmaster or warhound, so there's definitely more benefit to stacking them on the more resilient the titan gets. The solution might limiting them overall so you can either spread the love or make 1 or two very corrupted ttians but you can't have like 15-25 mutations over 5 titans. I don't wanna sound too down on them, lots cool potential for conversions, but I'm sure everyone reading starts to feel like the joker "I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve" -glues tentacles to titan-

 Crablezworth wrote:


I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.

Its hard for me comment on either Loyalist or Traitor books as I've only seen the reviews for them on Youtube. I also have no intention of getting either of those books.

If GW wants to limit those using the contents of Traitor Legios - use one or the other - fine. But outright banning custom legios - even if one is not using either Legio books - is completely unfair to those players who's battlegroup depend on them. By purchasing Defence of Ryza I have already repurchased the custom legio rules featured in white dwarf just to ensure I'm playing with the most updated and more balanced rules. For example, I can no longer switch out a maniple titan with a Warbringer, which has made it very hard to build my third battlegroup( which is currently on hold ) and had I bought one would have been really pissed. That alone is frustrating after I had to scrap my knightforce after the Porphyrion-over-nerf and was conned into purchasing yet more sodding Questoris to keep a legal Household...

Its getting to the point where open play will be the only way to enjoy Titanicus...

SamusDrake wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:


I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.

Its hard for me comment on either Loyalist or Traitor books as I've only seen the reviews for them on Youtube. I also have no intention of getting either of those books.

If GW wants to limit those using the contents of Traitor Legios - use one or the other - fine. But outright banning custom legios - even if one is not using either Legio books - is completely unfair to those players who's battlegroup depend on them. By purchasing Defence of Ryza I have already repurchased the custom legio rules featured in white dwarf just to ensure I'm playing with the most updated and more balanced rules. For example, I can no longer switch out a maniple titan with a Warbringer, which has made it very hard to build my third battlegroup( which is currently on hold ) and had I bought one would have been really pissed. That alone is frustrating after I had to scrap my knightforce after the Porphyrion-over-nerf and was conned into purchasing yet more sodding Questoris to keep a legal Household...

Its getting to the point where open play will be the only way to enjoy Titanicus...

The issue is basically, psi titans are very strong, so in a lot of matched play they're sorta banned or frowned upon. They're so good that they can even take out warmasters pretty easily, But what I'm seeing from some event organizers is basically corrupted titans are fine, require no further limitations, but also, custom legios are still too strong so banned, no acastus or vortex missiles and no psi titans. So loyalists get the losing end of things, To further compound the issue because nothing is ever simple, you can run an legio as loyalist or traitor, so my concern is, the result will see a large percentage of players at an event choosing to run as traitors. That may not be an issue if it's not a narrative thing, but sticking with matched play, that's sorta lame.

Obviously people are just getting their hands on the book so I am getting ahead of things by making predictions on how this will affect things, but the only real downside to corrupted titans is the -1 or -2 to their leadership. That's not really that bad because many maniples can mediate that somewhat, looking at you axiom, but also, the bigger you go for titans the higher the ld tends to be anyway,

But ya, I feel like it's gonna be hard to say no to custom legios if the trend is towards traitor legions with quote enquote "invisible upgrades". I think actually converting or magnetizing bits to convert titans to be corrupted will go a long way towards having the rule of cool win the day but it's really hard to win people over with zero effort hobby wise. There's def crossover with modelling upgrades too, and again for fairness, plenty of mutations ANd upgrades that may be super vague to model even if one wanted to attempt so gonna give everyone some slack for not wanting to have to start a whole new legio, but magnetizing heads and a few tentacles or something could go a long way.

I'll wait till I read through the Traitor Legios book before drawing any conclusions - and even then give it all some time for tactics and counter- tactics to shake out, which always takes some time.

Theoretical banning of this or that is quite premature at this point.

 schoon wrote:
I'll wait till I read through the Traitor Legios book before drawing any conclusions - and even then give it all some time for tactics and counter- tactics to shake out, which always takes some time.

Theoretical banning of this or that is quite premature at this point.

You don't need to ban anything to limit it. The problem is, it seems odd to allow unfettered corrupted tittans to literally anyone for declaring they're traitors today.

Here's an example of limiting it without stopping any insane combo at all.

Make them work like auxillary, but still allow them to fill a maniple slot. So basically 1 per maniple or just straight up aux. The mutations basically skew towards reaver and up anyway and it's not like the mutations get any cheaper on a warhound or any more expensive as you go up in scale, just scale allows for more of them on one titan. 1-2 is probably more palatable than 5, especially if zero effort is made on the conversion front.

Other method, simply cap or index the amount of mutation to point level.

If you wan specific examples of potentially easily abused mutations, the carapace one that would allow seemingly endless warp missile will likely be a problem. It allows carapace to change to another weapon of equal or lessere value during the command part of the strategy phase. That requires little testing to know at minimum it just jumped to the top of the faq/errata list. I'm trying not to single out too many, even that one might not be the end of the world if they fix it and it's not on every titan in the battlegroup.

I get people proxying to find out how things play, but from where I sit it's cynical to pretend one can't extrapolate on where a system with very little limitations and some skewed incentives can go. Without beating a dead horse, there is a prevailing feeling that custom legios, a system that lets you pick like 2 traits and like 2 upgrades or strats is game shattering, but allowing like unlimited corrupted titans/mutations, well, it's too early to tell. No question there are very strong choices for custom legios stuff.

Yeah, if they want the game to work at anything other than open(my preferred mode) they'll need to address it at minimum.

To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.

Both of those options were legal.

A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.

 schoon wrote:
To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.

Both of those options were legal.

A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.

Ah ok, thought it was no custom no psi titan, guess it's just no acastus or vortex then. Makes sense the psi titan doing well, especially placing so well, they're very strong.

Yet another article for what its worth...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/12/want-to-assemble-a-bright-and-colourful-titan-legion-thats-also-terrifying-legio-krytos-is-for-you/

...and there appears to a little chap standing next to some of them.

SamusDrake wrote:

...and there appears to a little chap standing next to some of them.

Interesting for sure....

SamusDrake wrote:
Yet another article for what its worth...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/12/want-to-assemble-a-bright-and-colourful-titan-legion-thats-also-terrifying-legio-krytos-is-for-you/

...and there appears to a little chap standing next to some of them.

Great looking battlegroup, I wonder what that little dude means.

Sadly that last shot of the warmasters broke my heart, for my mind immediately went to, if only...

photoshop "dare to dream mode activated"

Standing in between the two Warmaster heavy battle titans, he raises his arms to the heavens and bellows...

"BEHOLD! FOR I AM THE FUTURE!!!"


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 Crablezworth wrote:


Sadly that last shot of the warmasters broke my heart, for my mind immediately went to, if only...

It just dawned on me that...maybe there is a way to mix those weapons afterall? Maybe there is a third type of Warmaster on the way...one that is not bound by such limitations!

Just imagine the possibilities!

It looks like an Imperial Guard gunner from the ancient plastic epic imperial guard sprue

a hint for future Epic?

That's an old Epic infantry man, nothing to get hyped about. Looks cool though, as it's meant to

 Sherrypie wrote:
That's an old Epic infantry man, nothing to get hyped about. Looks cool though, as it's meant to

Why couldn't you just let us make-believe!

 Crablezworth wrote:

 schoon wrote:
To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.

Both of those options were legal.

A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.

Ah ok, thought it was no custom no psi titan, guess it's just no acastus or vortex then. Makes sense the psi titan doing well, especially placing so well, they're very strong.

Custom legios might have been legal, but at that event I played against one of each loyalist, traitor and custom traitor, the one against the custom traitor was pretty oppressive

RazorEdge wrote:
a hint for future Epic?

I thought it was just meant to show scale. It's hard to tell how truly massive these titans are without any frame of reference.

 Toofast wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
a hint for future Epic?

I thought it was just meant to show scale. It's hard to tell how truly massive these titans are without any frame of reference.

Yeah. Pretty much this.

I'm not thinking this one has any hidden meaning.

SamusDrake wrote:
Standing in between the two Warmaster heavy battle titans, he raises his arms to the heavens and bellows...

"BEHOLD! FOR I AM THE FUTURE!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:


Sadly that last shot of the warmasters broke my heart, for my mind immediately went to, if only...

It just dawned on me that...maybe there is a way to mix those weapons afterall? Maybe there is a third type of Warmaster on the way...one that is not bound by such limitations!

Just imagine the possibilities!

I don't think there's another one coming.