GW Adeptus Titanicus news and rumours - Plastic Direwolf Kit!

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**legionaires**

I had always hoped we would have gotten 40k chaos Titans, I guess I should give up on that now.

**Overread**

See my issue with Epic 30K is that whilst the titans are ageless, the tanks, troops and such are not. So GW is going to flesh out 30K before they even touch on a 40K game.

That's going to take ages which means Xenos, esp anything that isn't Eldar nor Orks, is going to be a very long time off.

**lord_blackfang**

Doing 40k xenos would also mean doing Primaris, I don't see them more or less superseding the Firstborn that haven't even hit preorder yet in any forseeable timeframe.

**gorgon**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Doing 40k xenos would also mean doing Primaris, I don't see them more or less superseding the Firstborn that haven't even hit preorder yet in any forseeable timeframe.

Well, not necessarily. They could set the game in any other time period where firstborn and xenos clashed.

xttz wrote:
As much as I'd love to see gargants again, I really don't think it's that simple. There's a strong commercial reason the Heresy concept was used since the 1980's and is still used now.

If GW release a small niche selection Mechanicum models then it doesn't need to be a huge investment for them. They can put out 2-4 new kits, any literally any Epic Heresy player can slot those models into a list if they feel like it. Doesn't matter if they currently field mostly marines or guard or knights or titans. They can impulse buy those new Skitarii tech guard & Ordinatus engine as a new detachment and it's not a major project.

Then a while later GW can release some more obscure marine / guard / knight units. Again it's a low barrier of entry to existing Epic players, and If any of these individual niche releases aren't popular then it was only a small investment. Meanwhile GW are using previous Epic models to attract further new customers to the game via discounted boxed sets.

However in order to sell Orks or Eldar GW have to make a much riskier investment, because players can't just pick up 2-3 boxes of Orks and start playing a game. They can't use their existing AT titan and knight models to round out a list. Realistically it means designing at least the same 10 new kits but compressed into a shorter release schedule so that players can build functional armies. That requires selling at a discount, rather than the full price they'd be selling at previously. In turn that means GW have to convince even more players to buy a whole new Epic army from scratch, and find Epic opponents to play with on suitable terrain.

I think it'll happen eventually, but a key first step is going to be growing the Epic market first. Get people playing the game in shops and clubs, make sure the terrain is available and accessible. Then they can make the bigger gambles.

Eh. As I've discussed before, going with the cheapest, safest, most limited route with a product launch isn't always the best plan. If the plan is to get people buying the product and maximize sales, then it makes more sense to include more to attract customers. Such as those 40K factions with sizable existing followings. Being overly conservative with a launch can mean the product just doesn't catch on. gak, 'xenos when?' might have been as common of a comment in AT discussions as 'Epic when?' It's not necessarily a brilliant strategy on GW's part to intentionally leave money on the table.

I fully recognize that the business plan with Legions may be aiming to hit a single rather than a triple or home run. There's certainly a place for that. Although then that leads one to think that the support for the game may not be *quite* as extensive as some folks seem to be expecting. Can't have it both ways there.

I don't think that the volume of kits required for xenos factions (AT or Epic) is a huge barrier though. It's not 2003 anymore. AT got two Warmaster Titan releases in one year. We probably could have had an AT Ork faction instead (or at least most of one) for that same amount of machine time. The main constraint is that you aren't making other kits for your core products during that period. The constraint is more about priorities.

**zedmeister**

gorgon wrote:

Eh. As I've discussed before, going with the cheapest, safest, most limited route with a product launch isn't always the best plan. If the plan is to get people buying the product and maximize sales, then it makes more sense to include more to attract customers. Such as those 40K factions with sizable existing followings. Being overly conservative with a launch can mean the product just doesn't catch on. gak, 'xenos when?' might have been as common of a comment in AT discussions as 'Epic when?' It's not necessarily a brilliant strategy on GW's part to intentionally leave money on the table.

I fully recognize that the business plan with Legions may be aiming to hit a single rather than a triple or home run. There's certainly a place for that. Although then that leads one to think that the support for the game may not be *quite* as extensive as some folks seem to be expecting. Can't have it both ways there.

I don't think that the volume of kits required for xenos factions (AT or Epic) is a huge barrier though. It's not 2003 anymore. AT got two Warmaster Titan releases in one year. We probably could have had an AT Ork faction instead (or at least most of one) for that same amount of machine time. The main constraint is that you aren't making other kits for your core products during that period. The constraint is more about priorities.

The other thing to consider is internal political wrangling. I suspect the 40k design studio is very protective of anyone working on parallel 40k products. The last thing want is to be have sales "stolen" or, even worse, shown up by the Forgeworld team again...

**Tsagualsa**

gorgon wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
Doing 40k xenos would also mean doing Primaris, I don't see them more or less superseding the Firstborn that haven't even hit preorder yet in any forseeable timeframe.

Well, not necessarily. They could set the game in any other time period where firstborn and xenos clashed.

xttz wrote:
As much as I'd love to see gargants again, I really don't think it's that simple. There's a strong commercial reason the Heresy concept was used since the 1980's and is still used now.

If GW release a small niche selection Mechanicum models then it doesn't need to be a huge investment for them. They can put out 2-4 new kits, any literally any Epic Heresy player can slot those models into a list if they feel like it. Doesn't matter if they currently field mostly marines or guard or knights or titans. They can impulse buy those new Skitarii tech guard & Ordinatus engine as a new detachment and it's not a major project.

Then a while later GW can release some more obscure marine / guard / knight units. Again it's a low barrier of entry to existing Epic players, and If any of these individual niche releases aren't popular then it was only a small investment. Meanwhile GW are using previous Epic models to attract further new customers to the game via discounted boxed sets.

However in order to sell Orks or Eldar GW have to make a much riskier investment, because players can't just pick up 2-3 boxes of Orks and start playing a game. They can't use their existing AT titan and knight models to round out a list. Realistically it means designing at least the same 10 new kits but compressed into a shorter release schedule so that players can build functional armies. That requires selling at a discount, rather than the full price they'd be selling at previously. In turn that means GW have to convince even more players to buy a whole new Epic army from scratch, and find Epic opponents to play with on suitable terrain.

I think it'll happen eventually, but a key first step is going to be growing the Epic market first. Get people playing the game in shops and clubs, make sure the terrain is available and accessible. Then they can make the bigger gambles.

Eh. As I've discussed before, going with the cheapest, safest, most limited route with a product launch isn't always the best plan. If the plan is to get people buying the product and maximize sales, then it makes more sense to include more to attract customers. Such as those 40K factions with sizable existing followings. Being overly conservative with a launch can mean the product just doesn't catch on. gak, 'xenos when?' might have been as common of a comment in AT discussions as 'Epic when?' It's not necessarily a brilliant strategy on GW's part to intentionally leave money on the table.

I fully recognize that the business plan with Legions may be aiming to hit a single rather than a triple or home run. There's certainly a place for that. Although then that leads one to think that the support for the game may not be *quite* as extensive as some folks seem to be expecting. Can't have it both ways there.

I don't think that the volume of kits required for xenos factions (AT or Epic) is a huge barrier though. It's not 2003 anymore. AT got two Warmaster Titan releases in one year. We probably could have had an AT Ork faction instead (or at least most of one) for that same amount of machine time. The main constraint is that you aren't making other kits for your core products during that period. The constraint is more about priorities.

I agree with most of what you're saying here, but these discussions sooner or later wind down because key factors are purposely kept unknowable by GW. The last couple of years, they have made strings of business decisions that were just baffling for the outside observer, from drastically underserving demand time and time again with their limited releases, to the major problems with e.g. Cursed City, quality issues in printed products, whatever is happening behind the scenes with LotR and related products, and more oddities besides. All that in front of the backdrop of their asinine preview/roadmap policy that almost nobody else does this way, and their generally idiosyncratic ways in general. We don't know gak because they don't want us to know gak, and you kind of have to believe them (or don't, i'm not ordering anyone around) when they profess that any of this makes sense with their internal data. My gut feeling is 'The heck it does' because so much of it is just outlandish, but their annual reports seem to prove them right.

**RexHavoc**

xttz wrote:
[
As much as I'd love to see gargants again, I really don't think it's that simple. There's a strong commercial reason the Heresy concept was used since the 1980's and is still used now.

If GW release a small niche selection Mechanicum models then it doesn't need to be a huge investment for them. They can put out 2-4 new kits, any literally any Epic Heresy player can slot those models into a list if they feel like it. Doesn't matter if they currently field mostly marines or guard or knights or titans. They can impulse buy those new Skitarii tech guard & Ordinatus engine as a new detachment and it's not a major project.

Then a while later GW can release some more obscure marine / guard / knight units. Again it's a low barrier of entry to existing Epic players, and If any of these individual niche releases aren't popular then it was only a small investment. Meanwhile GW are using previous Epic models to attract further new customers to the game via discounted boxed sets.

However in order to sell Orks or Eldar GW have to make a much riskier investment, because players can't just pick up 2-3 boxes of Orks and start playing a game. They can't use their existing AT titan and knight models to round out a list. Realistically it means designing at least the same 10 new kits but compressed into a shorter release schedule so that players can build functional armies. That requires selling at a discount, rather than the full price they'd be selling at previously. In turn that means GW have to convince even more players to buy a whole new Epic army from scratch, and find Epic opponents to play with on suitable terrain.

I think it'll happen eventually, but a key first step is going to be growing the Epic market first. Get people playing the game in shops and clubs, make sure the terrain is available and accessible. Then they can make the bigger gambles.

I'm not totally against this logic, but at the same time they are a billion pound company that often boost about making the best models in the world. They could easily invest in making enough Ork kits in one go. Better yet, if they don't want the full blown risk they could have kept the scale the same as before and rereleased the entire old line.

I get the logic that if Epic sells well, we could expect them to bring other races into it later on. Much like necromunda did when they brought out ash wastes as a separate game. However, I really don't like the way others do try to spin the 'if you buy new Epic, they will definitely bring xenos into later on'. (Its very similar financial blackmailing tactics that fans did with the dune movie last year- 'if you don't go to see part one multiple times, they might not make a part 2'.)

I wont be financially held hostage to buy something just on the chance I might get the item I want later on. GW have a billion pounds to risk and play with, I don't. What I have is a couple of hundred quid in my backpocket which I can buy hobby products with. If they don't want to put Orks out, I'll buy them from the company that does.

If they really wanted to do something that appealed to Epic fanbase and not just HH, why not put out a game with less units to start. A sprue of infantry & basic tanks/dreads for both Marines and Orks. Then, if it sells well then move into making all those tank variations. Then re-box AI & AT to coincide with the first gargant release. And on and on until all the races are accounted for. By the time the have the entire HH range out, someone else will have made every kind of ork in the new epic scale/style.

**Matrindur**

RexHavoc wrote:

If they really wanted to do something that appealed to Epic fanbase and not just HH, why not put out a game with less units to start. A sprue of infantry & basic tanks/dreads for both Marines and Orks. Then, if it sells well then move into making all those tank variations. Then re-box AI & AT to coincide with the first gargant release. And on and on until all the races are accounted for. By the time the have the entire HH range out, someone else will have made every kind of ork in the new epic scale/style.

The problem with that is that it takes a long time for GW to make the kits, I think it was around 3 years from start to release? So while they can estimate how well it would sell, anything you would want them to release in the first 3 years of epic would have to be started before they can actually look at real numbers.
Of course there are also probably many things that they started to developed even if they didn't know for sure if it would sell and then scrapped or changed if they saw it wouldn't sell.
If we look at Titanicus nearly all of the plastic releases where releases within 2 years of the game launch so where probably already in planning stages before the game launched, the Warmaster is the only plastic release I can see them starting after that. And after the Warmaster at the end of 2021 there weren't any new plastic releases at all, probably because they already where working on epic at that point and focused their resources on that instead. So I would expect at least two years worth of releases to be in varying degrees of work/completion right now.

**gorgon**

zedmeister wrote:
gorgon wrote:

Eh. As I've discussed before, going with the cheapest, safest, most limited route with a product launch isn't always the best plan. If the plan is to get people buying the product and maximize sales, then it makes more sense to include more to attract customers. Such as those 40K factions with sizable existing followings. Being overly conservative with a launch can mean the product just doesn't catch on. gak, 'xenos when?' might have been as common of a comment in AT discussions as 'Epic when?' It's not necessarily a brilliant strategy on GW's part to intentionally leave money on the table.

I fully recognize that the business plan with Legions may be aiming to hit a single rather than a triple or home run. There's certainly a place for that. Although then that leads one to think that the support for the game may not be *quite* as extensive as some folks seem to be expecting. Can't have it both ways there.

I don't think that the volume of kits required for xenos factions (AT or Epic) is a huge barrier though. It's not 2003 anymore. AT got two Warmaster Titan releases in one year. We probably could have had an AT Ork faction instead (or at least most of one) for that same amount of machine time. The main constraint is that you aren't making other kits for your core products during that period. The constraint is more about priorities.

The other thing to consider is internal political wrangling. I suspect the 40k design studio is very protective of anyone working on parallel 40k products. The last thing want is to be have sales "stolen" or, even worse, shown up by the Forgeworld team again...

Yeah, I completely agree that there may be some weird internal divisions about what part of the IP 'belongs' to whom. The HH may be the only part of the IP that the boxed games folks are 'allowed' to use.

Kinda goes without saying that you've lost the thread a bit as a company if you let stuff like this dictate what comes to market. It definitely shouldn't be a free-for-all with the IP, but it shouldn't be about fiefdoms either.

**Overread**

Thinking on that line it might even be that its nothing to do with fiefdoms but more that its GW's internal division rising to the fore. Ergo that the FW/Specialist games team isn't allowed to see what the 40K/AoS teams are working on in advance to protect GW's secrets.

So its not that they can't do 40K stuff, but that they can't see what's going on with it so they can't really work within its ecosystem as they've really no idea what the other teams are going to do with the setting, models, model ranges, armies, factions and such.

Both avenues are interesting arguments for why the new Epic and AT are trapped in the 30K setting.

The other could just be that the games aren't generating enough sales for GW managers to sign off for the budget for a massive line update for other factions. So the design team is again sticking to 30K because lore wise it allows for mirror-matches.

**Chopstick**

Shouldn't be hard for GW to make 3 titans/knights for xenos factions but people would be complaining why Imperium got more

? And the releases are snail pace you can't really expect them to expand more on any faction when there're too many of them.

**RexHavoc**

Matrindur wrote:
RexHavoc wrote:

If they really wanted to do something that appealed to Epic fanbase and not just HH, why not put out a game with less units to start. A sprue of infantry & basic tanks/dreads for both Marines and Orks. Then, if it sells well then move into making all those tank variations. Then re-box AI & AT to coincide with the first gargant release. And on and on until all the races are accounted for. By the time the have the entire HH range out, someone else will have made every kind of ork in the new epic scale/style.

The problem with that is that it takes a long time for GW to make the kits, I think it was around 3 years from start to release? So while they can estimate how well it would sell, anything you would want them to release in the first 3 years of epic would have to be started before they can actually look at real numbers.
Of course there are also probably many things that they started to developed even if they didn't know for sure if it would sell and then scrapped or changed if they saw it wouldn't sell.
If we look at Titanicus nearly all of the plastic releases where releases within 2 years of the game launch so where probably already in planning stages before the game launched, the Warmaster is the only plastic release I can see them starting after that. And after the Warmaster at the end of 2021 there weren't any new plastic releases at all, probably because they already where working on epic at that point and focused their resources on that instead. So I would expect at least two years worth of releases to be in varying degrees of work/completion right now.

GW have put out articles saying that the design time is like 3 years, but I really don't believe it. Smaller companies can put plastic kits now in around 6 months, and GW is meant to be the leading company in this hobby.

You also have things like them claiming it takes three years, but had new armies coming out in the first year of Age of Sigmar. Most stories from Ex GW workers/writers seem to point to AoS being written on the tail end of the end times, when they had already spent time writing what should have been WFB 9th. Which means they either planned to have giant chaos warriors, stormcasts, flying dwarves and sea elves appear in WFB or their plastics development time is lot, lot shorter than they claim it to be.

I suspect someone has probably done up some designs already for Epic. They probably have their own internal road map that proto type orks, or at least 3d renders would be for showing off to get budget to work on it. I just dislike the lack of transparency from GW, leaving fans to push their own opinions on if we would see 40k lines later on. I know full well if they were to turn around and say 'maybe' and then it gets canned, they'd get the flak for that. But in a perfect world, they could at least come and say "look, buy lots of marines and we will see other races in a few years!"

**lord_blackfang**

They could have done an entire Epic Ork army on just the production slots of Warcry meat trees, but they chose not to. I expect they wil continue to choose not to.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

lord_blackfang wrote:
They could have done an entire Epic Ork army on just the production slots of Warcry meat trees, but they chose not to. I expect they wil continue to choose not to.

Yet.

The word you’re avoiding so carefully is yet.

A new game system for any company is a risk. Whether going the heresy era civil war to make every SKU of some appeal to every player, or going for smaller but more numerous factions, it remains a risk.

We don’t need to like that fact, but a fact it remains.

AT, like AI, does to some degree feel like a dead end - for now. But if Epic sells well? We can reasonably expect GW, for the same reasons people bash them with, to expand it into the modern 40K era in the Kwest For Kash. Because again, we don’t need to like it, but that’s now capitalism and business works.

**Albertorius**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
They could have done an entire Epic Ork army on just the production slots of Warcry meat trees, but they chose not to. I expect they wil continue to choose not to.

Yet.

The word you’re avoiding so carefully is yet.

A new game system for any company is a risk. Whether going the heresy era civil war to make every SKU of some appeal to every player, or going for smaller but more numerous factions, it remains a risk.

We don’t need to like that fact, but a fact it remains.

AT, like AI, does to some degree feel like a dead end - for now. But if Epic sells well? We can reasonably expect GW, for the same reasons people bash them with, to expand it into the modern 40K era in the Kwest For Kash. Because again, we don’t need to like it, but that’s now capitalism and business works.

Yet, yes. How many years will that "yet" stil be "yet"? Who knows. At this moment the only thing we know is that the ork planes are going.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Bugged if I know.

**Chopstick**

Might be in 5 years if BFG didn't eat up all the production slots

Actually if BFG isn't coming it might be good sign that epic 40k is in the work, but probably no xenos expansion for AT.

**gorgon**

Yeah, "you might get it in 3-5 years" effectively means it isn't going to happen for many of the current customers. Lots will have moved on to other games, gotten out of the hobby, etc. "Someday" isn't a business plan -- it's the absence of a business plan.

**kodos**

RexHavoc wrote:

GW have put out articles saying that the design time is like 3 years, but I really don't believe it. Smaller companies can put plastic kits now in around 6 months, and GW is meant to be the leading company in this hobby.

You also have things like them claiming it takes three years, but had new armies coming out in the first year of Age of Sigmar. Most stories from Ex GW workers/writers seem to point to AoS being written on the tail end of the end times, when they had already spent time writing what should have been WFB 9th. Which means they either planned to have giant chaos warriors, stormcasts, flying dwarves and sea elves appear in WFB or their plastics development time is lot, lot shorter than they claim it to be.

first it was said 3 years from starting with the design to produce enough for a worldwide launch and smaller companies having a single game and don't need to manage factory slots for everything or need the time to produce the amount of models GW sells

and yes, GW worked on Stormcast, Khorne and Slayers (and those would have also fit into a post Endtimes Warhammer World) by the time 8th Edition started, the rules writer might not have known about that because to prevent leaks GW does not tell everyone everything but only what they need to know (so to change/remove Warhammer Fantasy was decided early on and/or already at the end of 7th Edition)

so GW has fixed dates for their main games and not much possibility to change them during the process without messing up everything else as well (so having a made to order to produce more of a limited release launch box means every other product will be impacted by that), work for 11th 40k is going to start with the design process soon, while for AoS 4th work might be almost done and production process is going to start soon and the other games get their factory slots in between and need to use them (if they have something ready or not)

**xttz**

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/06/heresy-thursday-unleash-a-pack-of-dire-wolf-scout-titans-with-a-new-plastic-kit/

Out of nowhere... Dire Wolves are getting a plastic kit with a new weapon option

**Albertorius**

Heh, never noticed they have muzzled it.

**The Phazer**

While I feel a bit sorry for anyone who bought the old one that's been replaced so quickly... I am also all for rotating bad models out of the range quickly, and the resin one was awful.

**MajorWesJanson**

The Phazer wrote:
While I feel a bit sorry for anyone who bought the old one that's been replaced so quickly... I am also all for rotating bad models out of the range quickly, and the resin one was awful.

I have a Dire Wolf as part of an order I am waiting on a couple items before they ship. I wonder if the plastic kit will make it out first?

Still, nice that they gave it a new weapon option.

**Boosykes**

Gota say cool addition but I think the regular war hound looks better

**leopard**

I quite like it, has the look of a force making use of what they have.

"we need heavier weapons!"
"we won't get supply for some time, we could take weapons from damaged larger titans and fit to a warhound? I mean its not designed for it so the arm mounts would have to be non-energy weapons maybe?"
"would that work?"
"... perhaps it can be made to..."

and thus this is born, and over time a field modification is refined

**Chopstick**

Now we can have AT expansion not come with books, seems good to me.

**leopard**

interesting noting rules are in the new game rule book, no mention of this coming with a command terminal in the box though, or cards

maybe AT is about to see a change?

**zedmeister**

leopard wrote:
interesting noting rules are in the new game rule book, no mention of this coming with a command terminal in the box though, or cards

maybe AT is about to see a change?

The little note at the bottom - rules are provided - seem to hint the box will come with the cards

**Malika2**

I'm wondering if they could then also do variants for those secondary weapons...

**Tavis75**

The Phazer wrote:
While I feel a bit sorry for anyone who bought the old one that's been replaced so quickly... I am also all for rotating bad models out of the range quickly, and the resin one was awful.

The plastic and resin ones look basically identical as far as I can see.