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 lambsandlions wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Archon with WWP and Armor of Misery + Shadowseer with the Mask of Secrets + either Wraithguards or Firedragons.

Psychic Shriek with -4 on enemy LD in the psychic phase.
Shoot, kill, shoot again in the shooting phase.
...profit

if you take the firedragons or blaster borne you should take a raider and leave the archon and shadowseer in the raider. With the raiders large profile you really increase the radius of the -4ld.

Auras don't extend from vehicle hulls since the faq.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:

Weidekuh wrote:
Archon with WWP and Armor of Misery + Shadowseer with the Mask of Secrets + either Wraithguards or Firedragons.

Psychic Shriek with -4 on enemy LD in the psychic phase.
Shoot, kill, shoot again in the shooting phase.
...profit

if you take the firedragons or blaster borne you should take a raider and leave the archon and shadowseer in the raider. With the raiders large profile you really increase the radius of the -4ld.

Auras don't extend from vehicle hulls since the faq.

Even if they are open topped? It seems weird that shooting works that way but auras don't

 jifel wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
Quick rules question in regards to the Yncarne, Visarch, and Yvraine.

Can I take ONE of them in a CWE CAD, is that even possible. Or do I have to take the Triumvirate formation in order to add them to my CWE force?

Yes. They may be included in any CWE, DE, or Harley detachment.

Ok so interesting rules and tactics question as follow up. If I included an Yncarne and the Visarch in a CWE army, and placed the Visarch in a squad of Striking Scorpions. If that unit with the visarch and SS is within 12 of the Yncarne bubble, do the striking scorpions receive the benefit of fearless/FNP, not from the Yncarne himself, but because of conferred rules and the Visarch now has the fearless/feel no pain buffs and is an IC conferring that to his unit?

EldarExarch wrote:

 jifel wrote:

EldarExarch wrote:
Quick rules question in regards to the Yncarne, Visarch, and Yvraine.

Can I take ONE of them in a CWE CAD, is that even possible. Or do I have to take the Triumvirate formation in order to add them to my CWE force?

Yes. They may be included in any CWE, DE, or Harley detachment.

Ok so interesting rules and tactics question as follow up. If I included an Yncarne and the Visarch in a CWE army, and placed the Visarch in a squad of Striking Scorpions. If that unit with the visarch and SS is within 12 of the Yncarne bubble, do the striking scorpions receive the benefit of fearless/FNP, not from the Yncarne himself, but because of conferred rules and the Visarch now has the fearless/feel no pain buffs and is an IC conferring that to his unit?

FNP from a model is never transfered to the unit.
The Yncarne rule gives FNP/Fearless to Ynarri units within 12", not Ynarri models. So I think you don't get anything while the Visarch is joined to the SS units, but he would get both if he were by himself.

 gummyofallbears wrote:


Even if they are open topped? It seems weird that shooting works that way but auras don't

Sadly, yes. I'm still having problems with a few of the issues coming up with this, but models in transports are counted as not being on the table now. It hurts a lot of units like the culexus in a rhino, ethereal in a devilfish, ulrik in a stormwolf, armor of misery in raider, and even teleport homers in transports. Unfortunately I used almost all of those units in one list or another so I've had to redo a lot of armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
two WWP archons is a bit much - archons suck royally and you only have 2 HQ choice in the reborn warhost. Like Galef said too - any non reborn warhost units remove soulburst from your squad - so 2 archons isn't really doable.

Archons do seem to suck in general but as a 95pt upgrade to WG or FDs that allows them to get in weapons range (saving the cost of a transport) and potentially fire twice (better buff than a Farseer can provide) I think they're great. The shortage of HQ slots is the problem, as you say, but aside from the compulsory Autarch the only HQ I would want is maybe a Farseer.

The Autarchs lack of SfD means he will either have to be a loan ranger with WJG and FG or just sit in the DZ playing solitaire. That may confuse the Harlequins.


Unrelated question: Can a 4 unit USF choose not to roll for reserves on turn one?

If the Visarch is in an unit of CWE, DE or Harlequins that are not from the Reborn host, they still count as Ynnari. They will not gain the SfD rule as that is only conferred if taken in the Reborn Host, however the FAQ on factions clearly states that if a unit has models from different factions, the whole unit counts as having both factions.
Since the Yncarne's Fearless/FNP bubble affects "units" with the Ynnari faction, any unit that the Visarch or Yvraine join will benefit.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
two WWP archons is a bit much - archons suck royally and you only have 2 HQ choice in the reborn warhost. Like Galef said too - any non reborn warhost units remove soulburst from your squad - so 2 archons isn't really doable.

Archons do seem to suck in general but as a 95pt upgrade to WG or FDs that allows them to get in weapons range (saving the cost of a transport) and potentially fire twice (better buff than a Farseer can provide) I think they're great. The shortage of HQ slots is the problem, as you say, but aside from the compulsory Autarch the only HQ I would want is maybe a Farseer.

The Autarchs lack of SfD means he will either have to be a loan ranger with WJG and FG or just sit in the DZ playing solitaire. That may confuse the Harlequins.


Unrelated question: Can a 4 unit USF choose not to roll for reserves on turn one?

In my 1850 I have settled with 1 farseer 1 archon and a CAD with 1 Autarch. I'm not sure Yncarne and a Farseer will be enough warpdice to reliably cast 2 powers so I'm thinking a further farseer or Yvraine will be needed.

I am actually torn between an aspect host or completing the Triumvirate.

The problem with a double archon build is there is no way to include a farseer with SfD whilst including 2 archons with SfD which kind of defeats the purpose of using a WWP archon in the first place (because we want to WWP in and fire twice). You could take 2 reborn warhosts to fix this but a lot of tournament and gaming groups wont allow you to duplicate a detachment due to ITC formats.

I have had an idea of running 0 farseers with 2 archons and the triumvirate. Yvraine and Visarch do offer some tanking ability due to being EW and regenerating wounds. You'd have to go with 2 units that had a lot of cheap boddies to really make that work though...or put yvraine and visarch in the same unit and the other WWP archon takes in say.... big unit of kabalites or storm gardians?

I am having a hard time justifying the Ycarne in armies lower than 2k. He maybe good, but I came up with a little deathstar that seems to be strong.

The star includes Yvraine, Visarch, Shadowseer, and a Troupe of 7 Hareliquins with embraces inside a Raider. The idea is to have Yvraine up front and Visarch in the back. Auto-look out sir to visarch until he is down to a wound or 2, have Yvraine tank a wound then start look out sirring to the Harliquins healing both up then back to them tanking.

I did this in a match against Tzench Daemons. The star made it through the game (5 rounds).

I even out psychic phased him with 2 more warp charges than he had. I had 17+d3+d6 warp charges. It was a fun game where I was out numbered 5 to 1 before any summoning. Making use of Soulburst was a thorn in the screamer star with 3 haralds on disk side.
I barely won the game, it came down to could one of his flamers run 4" to contest an objective to force the tie.
I am enjoying the feel of this new army more than my pure Harlequin army, and a good contender for if I play them or my Tau vs someone.

Thoughts on Swooping Hawks in a Reborn Warhost?

Unlike Spiders, they get no-scatter Deep Strike thanks to Herald of Victory (you are taking them with an Exarch). They get an ignore-cover pieplate on the turn they drop down, and if they are near a unit that gets destroyed in the move phase (this is the part I'm trying to figure out: Vector Strikes, Interceptor, Bombing Runs, Ramming, etc, but nothing that is suitably allied with Eldar seems to click; something seems a bit goofy about taking allied Tyranids for Mawloc shenanigans), they get to Intercept another flyer.

Which could make them rather hilarious if your opponent wants to run an aircav list admittedly, as they end up creating one or two large bubbles of denial. They could move 18", pop one flyer, move another 18" and pop another flyer.

Yvraine and the Visarch don't seem great to me, pheonix lords are better at choppy and Farseers are way better psykers (runes of fate + spirit stone + ghost helm + runes of farseer).

I have the models so I'll try them. I'm thinking of going all in on a seer council death star with:

Eldrad
Farseer
Yvraine
Visarch
Archon, WWP, Blaster
Autarch, FG
5-10 Warlocks with spears.

No scatter deep strike on a 2+ reserve, loads of psychic silliness followed by spears, fusion gun and a blaster. Armor of misery for Ld debuff, Yvraine/Visarch tanky shenanigans with dead warlocks increasing Yvraines mastery level. It's awful but might be fun.


EDIT: Swooping hawks; They can use SfD to make an 18" move in any phase when something dies, so you can probably take out a flyer in the shooting phase with them.

I am toying with the idea of setting up a few infiltrating units on one flank of the enemy. It would involve The Heroe's Path Harlequin Formation along with Illic Nightspear and a unit of Rangers. The goal here would be to utilize Soulburst from the death of the Shadowseer or Death Jester to set-up a Solitaire assault and gain an extra round of shooting from Illic and the Rangers, as well as potentially summoning in the Yncarne.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yvraine and the Visarch don't seem great to me, pheonix lords are better at choppy and Farseers are way better psykers (runes of fate + spirit stone + ghost helm + runes of farseer).

I have the models so I'll try them. I'm thinking of going all in on a seer council death star with:

Eldrad
Farseer
Yvraine
Visarch
Archon, WWP, Blaster
Autarch, FG
5-10 Warlocks with spears.

No scatter deep strike on a 2+ reserve, loads of psychic silliness followed by spears, fusion gun and a blaster. Armor of misery for Ld debuff, Yvraine/Visarch tanky shenanigans with dead warlocks increasing Yvraines mastery level. It's awful but might be fun.


EDIT: Swooping hawks; They can use SfD to make an 18" move in any phase when something dies so you can probably take out a flyer in the shooting phase with them.

IDK about that. Visarch is str 5 ap2 in CC with possibly up to 7 attacks base. I think he can hang with a PL for his cost - hes not as good in a challange but probably reks standard infantry better. (he also gets a warlord trait even if hes not your warlord *boss*) Plus Yvraine is actaully a pretty potent psyker herself on top of being a CC beast.

Don't discount the new psychic discipline. I think it might even potentially be better than runes of fate. Only 2 powers are actually bad. The unit buff gives insane CC stats and it has an anti horde spell that would really put a hurting on something like a ferrensian wolf star of 50 (it gets a str 4 shot per every model in a unit and if you kill 1 model you get a soulburst action!)

I'm definitely discounting it unless I get to pick my powers. The word of the phoenix is great but the primaris and 1 and 2 are crap and the 4 is primarily geared towards CC. Not my style of space elves, though it might have limited usefulness for the Corpsetheif claw. Still, with telepathy, div and runes of fate to roll on, I really don't see the pros outweighing the cons.

Also the power that you're happy about being anti-horde is WC 2 and it's only that many shots, not hits. It's probably going to give you a soul burst but I'd only cast it for that. And even then, since your opponent controls the movement of his units, it's not super effective (and only 12" range).

Even the 6 is overpriced at WC 3. Literally no chance I roll on this table if I'm actually rolling.

I do like the new discipline, it has some fun stuff on there for triggering soulburst, but guide is such a great primaris that you know a Farseer will always be useful, Fortune and Doom are way above the Ynnead powers too. I would certainly never roll on Revenant for a Farseer.

Y and V are no slouches in hand to hand, but the T3 3+ Sv kills it for me. Jain Zar is still the only Eldar character I'd want heading up a serious HtH unit, she wins by screaming at the enemy.

 skullzz wrote:

The star includes Yvraine, Visarch, Shadowseer, and a Troupe of 7 Hareliquins with embraces inside a Raider. The idea is to have Yvraine up front and Visarch in the back. Auto-look out sir to visarch until he is down to a wound or 2, have Yvraine tank a wound then start look out sirring to the Harliquins healing both up then back to them tanking.

LOS goes to the nearest model. Nothing about the Visarch's rule changes that. He only auto-passes the roll. If he's not the closest model to Yvraine, he can't LOS.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 skullzz wrote:

The star includes Yvraine, Visarch, Shadowseer, and a Troupe of 7 Hareliquins with embraces inside a Raider. The idea is to have Yvraine up front and Visarch in the back. Auto-look out sir to visarch until he is down to a wound or 2, have Yvraine tank a wound then start look out sirring to the Harliquins healing both up then back to them tanking.

LOS goes to the nearest model. Nothing about the Visarch's rule changes that. He only auto-passes the roll. If he's not the closest model to Yvraine, he can't LOS.

I thought this at first too, but when I looked at the rule again, it states that the LoS MUST go on Visarch.
"If the Visarch is in a unit with Yvraine, you can choose for Yvraine to pass LoS rolls automatically. If you do so, you must allocate the Wounds to the Visarch. Additionally, the Visarch always passes the Initiative test when making a Glorious Intervention to take Yvraine's place"
The underlined emphasis is mine. The requirement to chose to use the ability is that Visarch is in the unit with Yvraine, not that he is the closest to her.

But I think Visarch still needs to be eligible to accept/issue challenges to auto-pass Glorious Intervention.

-

Hey so I just watched the MWG batrep where Steve made an interesting point about the double charging using soulburst. He said that a unit cannot soul burst if they are locked in combat, and even if the unit kills something at I10, say a HoW, they are still locked in combat until the end of the phase. This doesn't stop other units nearby soulbursting in, just not the unit that is in combat.

Klowny wrote:
Hey so I just watched the MWG batrep where Steve made an interesting point about the double charging using soulburst. He said that a unit cannot soul burst if they are locked in combat, and even if the unit kills something at I10, say a HoW, they are still locked in combat until the end of the phase. This doesn't stop other units nearby soulbursting in, just not the unit that is in combat.

I just watched it also. If that is the case then I need to rethink some things. As leaving my mini star in the open will hurt them.

I kinda hope this is the case (that units are considered locked until the end of the phase). Because that would shut down any potential arguments about who gets to fight (or attacking twice in the turn, which Soulburst doesn't explicitly allow).

So if a Harlequin unit wipes SM unit A, it can allow a nearby unengaged Ynnari unit Soulburt, but not the Harlies themselves because they are still considered "locked in combat" unit the end of the phase. Let's say this unit is a unit of Wyches who choose to assault SM unit B.
If it is a combat that has yet to be fought, we resolve it as normal. If the combat has been fought this phase, the Wyches would pick up "at the current Initiative step" as per the Soulburst rule. This will most likely mean the Wyches do not attack since their initiative has passed.

If this is the way the rule is supposed to work, I really only see it being good to engage in combats that have not been fought, or to tie up shooting units.
It could be a way to get a second chance to assault.
Like if those Wyches had attempted to charge SM unit B but had failed, a Soulburst could allow them to try again.

-

what would happen if i was playing against another reborn warhost player, and we both are both in range of some unit that has been killed and can use a soulburst action. In this example lets say it was some scatbikes vs reaver jetbikes. The scatbikes want to shoot first and eliminate the threat, the reavers want to charge in, is it an initiative thing?

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
what would happen if i was playing against another reborn warhost player, and we both are both in range of some unit that has been killed and can use a soulburst action. In this example lets say it was some scatbikes vs reaver jetbikes. The scatbikes want to shoot first and eliminate the threat, the reavers want to charge in, is it an initiative thing?

If I had to take a stab at it, I would say whoever's player turn it is has the Right of Way. Anything that happens simultaneously the player's who's turn it is has the option. I forgot what edition has this ruling. I've been using it since 6th, so it might have gotten taken out in 7th but I believe it's somewhere in the BRB.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
what would happen if i was playing against another reborn warhost player, and we both are both in range of some unit that has been killed and can use a soulburst action. In this example lets say it was some scatbikes vs reaver jetbikes. The scatbikes want to shoot first and eliminate the threat, the reavers want to charge in, is it an initiative thing?

That is a super easy solution. Check out sequencing in the very beginning of the BRB. Anytime 2 or more rules happen at the same time, the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose the order

-

 Galef wrote:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
what would happen if i was playing against another reborn warhost player, and we both are both in range of some unit that has been killed and can use a soulburst action. In this example lets say it was some scatbikes vs reaver jetbikes. The scatbikes want to shoot first and eliminate the threat, the reavers want to charge in, is it an initiative thing?

That is a super easy solution. Check out sequencing in the very beginning of the BRB. Anytime 2 or more rules happen at the same time, the player whose turn it currently is gets to choose the order

-

ic, thanks.

Im going to a tournament soon and get to practice my list tomorow vs both a DE heavy reborn warhost than a demon tetriad list. Will be my first games with the reborn warhost. Planning on taking

Jetbike farseer and autarch
3x3 scat bikes
3x3 black guardian wind riders with scats
wraithknight
aspect host with 15 spiders
Ulthwe strikeforce with 3x4 black guardian windriders with scats
2 single units of D artillery

ETC rules so full strength ranged D, in general im gonna opt to go second when i can and null deploy and rely on my strikeforce to arrive on turn 1 and not allow me to auto lose. 7 of the bike units wont scatter on the deepstrike. 14 units in the list have the option for strength from death which ill do my best to chain obviously, im hoping with my mobility i can just mass deploy where my enemy is weak on the bottom of turn 2. Will be rolling on the new warlord trait, looks like the strategic traits table is retired. Pick your own powers, wow, the damage that could be done with thatone.

 Galef wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 skullzz wrote:

The star includes Yvraine, Visarch, Shadowseer, and a Troupe of 7 Hareliquins with embraces inside a Raider. The idea is to have Yvraine up front and Visarch in the back. Auto-look out sir to visarch until he is down to a wound or 2, have Yvraine tank a wound then start look out sirring to the Harliquins healing both up then back to them tanking.

LOS goes to the nearest model. Nothing about the Visarch's rule changes that. He only auto-passes the roll. If he's not the closest model to Yvraine, he can't LOS.

I thought this at first too, but when I looked at the rule again, it states that the LoS MUST go on Visarch.
"If the Visarch is in a unit with Yvraine, you can choose for Yvraine to pass LoS rolls automatically. If you do so, you must allocate the Wounds to the Visarch. Additionally, the Visarch always passes the Initiative test when making a Glorious Intervention to take Yvraine's place"
The underlined emphasis is mine. The requirement to chose to use the ability is that Visarch is in the unit with Yvraine, not that he is the closest to her.

But I think Visarch still needs to be eligible to accept/issue challenges to auto-pass Glorious Intervention.

-

Doesn't matter. His rule doesn't override needing to be closest. If he's not, he can't.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 skullzz wrote:

The star includes Yvraine, Visarch, Shadowseer, and a Troupe of 7 Hareliquins with embraces inside a Raider. The idea is to have Yvraine up front and Visarch in the back. Auto-look out sir to visarch until he is down to a wound or 2, have Yvraine tank a wound then start look out sirring to the Harliquins healing both up then back to them tanking.

LOS goes to the nearest model. Nothing about the Visarch's rule changes that. He only auto-passes the roll. If he's not the closest model to Yvraine, he can't LOS.

I thought this at first too, but when I looked at the rule again, it states that the LoS MUST go on Visarch.
"If the Visarch is in a unit with Yvraine, you can choose for Yvraine to pass LoS rolls automatically. If you do so, you must allocate the Wounds to the Visarch. Additionally, the Visarch always passes the Initiative test when making a Glorious Intervention to take Yvraine's place"
The underlined emphasis is mine. The requirement to chose to use the ability is that Visarch is in the unit with Yvraine, not that he is the closest to her.

But I think Visarch still needs to be eligible to accept/issue challenges to auto-pass Glorious Intervention.

-

Doesn't matter. His rule doesn't override needing to be closest. If he's not, he can't.

It actually sounds like it bypasses that rule. Since just being in the unit is the qualifier to use the rule, that it "must" be allocated to Vizzy says that someone else could have been an option. Since the closest model is the typically the only option, Vizzy steals his thunder.
]

On the contrary, it means if he's in the same unit as Yvraine and not the closest, no one can LOS for her.

There is no exception in his rule about distance.

Seems pretty straight forward to me. BRB has a rule that says it must be the closest. Codex has a rule that says it must be a particular special character. They are in conflict with each other. BRB says that in case of conflict, codex wins.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
On the contrary, it means if he's in the same unit as Yvraine and not the closest, no one can LOS for her.

There is no exception in his rule about distance.

Agree to disagree on that one. I can't for the life of me identify how "you may choose" has somehow been interpreted by you as "there is no choice and you have to do it".

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
On the contrary, it means if he's in the same unit as Yvraine and not the closest, no one can LOS for her.

There is no exception in his rule about distance.

Agree to disagree on that one. I can't for the life of me identify how "you may choose" has somehow been interpreted by you as "there is no choice and you have to do it".

Easy. He's wrong. Codex > BRB.