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gungo wrote:

Except your wrong and the perso. You quoted was right. Gw online community has never been better. After underestimating demand they are making additional print runs as needed. .

There has been no indication from GW that a new print run will be produced. All they have promised is that they're looking at producing a digital version of the rulebook at some point in the next few weeks.

Not to distract from the very truly warranted vitriol of this thread, but I found the heads I am putting on my Scouts.

Either these

Or these


I am leaning toward the second option since it give them helmets, but they are obviously not marines. They would fit with the limited armor Scouts wear.

In other news, would it be better for GW to increase production of the boxed set or just print the book? I see the second option as more likely, but it would be unfortunate for the people who wanted the amazing deal the set offers. Like I said upthread, digital only is a dumb option for a main rulebook.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 squall018 wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Can daemons be played in it?

As of now, no.

Cool. I can skip it then. Easy decision!! Good luck, fellas.

Why is GW giving my army the short end of the stick though? Yes, I know we just had a tzeentch release. But the transport/unit bundles could easily have included lesser daemons and a chariot. Then this game skips em. Feeling a bit left out.

Having played about 10 rounds over the last two days from my FLGS' advance copy, my speculation is that there are a few reasons for this:

1) They would have to diverge it more than CSM because the baseline models are different, as are the upgrade options. So it would really just about have to be 4 different armies instead of one
2) The basic troops don't lend themselves well to being played because they have no upgrade options, and this is a big part of the game. Whereas I can give my space marine one of a bunch of gun and cc weapon options, what are you going to give a pink horror with your upgrade points? Sure you could just get more models, but as models get better weapons, they quickly outscale basic stat lines. Call me crazy, but this was either a case of good good foresight or actual play testing.
3) I know CSM isn't the same as Daemons, but you can get marks and for a lot of players, you get the same feel. Plus, CSM are the only models with SM in their name that can get power armor so you really get a lot of the good feels with them.

Thoughts on the game overall:

1) Have heard that there are a lot of similarities to 2nd Ed 40k/Necromunda. I started in fourth so I can't comment on this, but terminator armor saves on 2d6 is a cool mechanic (even if it starts at 3+ now and there are save modifiers)
2) Plays short and fast, which is great and lends itself to a campaign getting to the goal of 15 victory points for a player in likely less than 4 playing sessions (I have 9 after playing....6 games with my current faction)
3) Some of the missions are just horribly balanced. The game overall is horribly balanced in a campaign if I've played more games than other players have, and there are no real levers to fix this. It's not hard at all to make reasonable fixes to the missions so that they are substantially more fair, and we tried this in a few games, although playing it out of the box isn't terrible - it can just be very random. On the whole, it's not like one player SHOULD gain an advantage...but then again I SHOULD roll higher than a 3 on at least one of 5 dice, right?
4) For better or for worse, this is very true to the fluff. Models are well-represented by what they should be able to do based on their fluff because of the small scale of the game.
5) Models don't die very easily. Say I take a wound (roughly as easy as it is in 40k, but imagine only shooting with 3 guys total each turn...guys live a lot longer). But even once I take that wound, 5/6 times I'm not dead. Then even if I am dead for the round, 91 percent of the time I'm still not dead (but maybe I miss a round or have to be rescued....which is actually pretty tough). So you basically need a 6, then a 1, then a 1-3 all rolled to lose a dude. Any other combination and they won't be permanently dead, so you can be more Rambo than you think.


Some thoughts on the factions that I have played as or against:

1) Love Grey Knights. Truly the elite specialists that come in to get the job done, either in CC or at range.
2) Tyranids are terrifying in CC. I should clarify. TYRANID WARRIORS are terrifying in CC. Never thought I'd say that
3) CSM have super cheap power armor and it's great that they get something that generic SM don't (suck it false emperor!)
4) Tau are an interesting glass cannon, but I don't do pathfinders so I just can't
5) The Necron models to choose from don't float my boat but they have some cool durability stuff and their guns are pretty good

stewe128 wrote:
Why are people so salty about the release.

Yeah it's just amazing how when you hype something up to customers and then say it's limited and don't actually have enough stock to sell to those customers that the customers start to get unhappy. Just shocking and amazing.

/sarcasm

While I'm glad GW are improving on the community interaction side, they've really only just started reaching the point they should have been at since forever, and it's where the rubber hits the road that matters (ie. products in the hands of customers).

 luke1705 wrote:
The game overall is horribly balanced in a campaign if I've played more games than other players have, and there are no real levers to fix this.

This was an issue in the original Necromunda as well, but the leveler was that the lower-ranked team got credit and experience bonuses at the end of the game, assuming they survived. So it was potentially risky but also quite lucrative to fight more powerful gangs than your own.

Alendrel wrote:
The whole "super hype this game at GAMA to retailers, then not actually have copies to send them" is the best part

Forgot about that.

Showing off a big new game to stockists and then selling the game out in 20 mins. That's not a great start to the 'new' that actually participates in the wargaming industry rather than pretending they are an industry all to themselves.

This is yet another total GW cluster. Total silence, bad assumptions, poor marketing and i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't done on purpose with the classic "tell the investors we sold out of product" (by under producing). Pure silence on a product that is supposed this well received is a bad sign.

claiming to be more in tune with the social media and their customers doesn't mean diddly squat if you don't follow through.

So no we shouldn't chill as folks are saying and GW needs to fire their product managers, marketing team, social media team (or lack there of) and stop just producing hype and with no product to back it up.

This is the time where consumers are more aware and with the net the way it is, you'll be called on your BS faster so don't bother trying to pretend the consumer is dumb.

They should be out putting rumours to rest and actually communicating with consumers, especially since having over 1/2 a day heads up with sell outs in overpriced markets.

 insaniak wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The game overall is horribly balanced in a campaign if I've played more games than other players have, and there are no real levers to fix this.

This was an issue in the original Necromunda as well, but the leveler was that the lower-ranked team got credit and experience bonuses at the end of the game, assuming they survived. So it was potentially risky but also quite lucrative to fight more powerful gangs than your own.

It's an issue in EVERY campaign game GW does with "EXP" since apparently they can't create any new ideas. You should never design a game where you gain bonuses for not playing (IE bottling and getting exp bonus). Makes for extremely lame campaigns.

 insaniak wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The game overall is horribly balanced in a campaign if I've played more games than other players have, and there are no real levers to fix this.

This was an issue in the original Necromunda as well, but the leveler was that the lower-ranked team got credit and experience bonuses at the end of the game, assuming they survived. So it was potentially risky but also quite lucrative to fight more powerful gangs than your own.

Currently no such mechanic that I've seen so far (but perhaps we missed something in combing over the rules).

Things we talked about were providing extra points post game to upgrade, or extra advance rolls to improve their models. Obviously, just playing a set amount of games each week is great if you have a dedicated group, but it's also good for people to be able to jump in. This is definitely a great intro game for people who think the 40k universe is fun but don't want to spend $500 to find out if they actually like it, and the rules set does seem easy enough to pick up. I can see it being supported and played for a long time tbh. I know it's the cult of new right now, but I will certainly be playing through multiple campaigns, likely as different factions. But that's just because I have an addiction problem and like playing models I haven't used in a long time/can't work well in regular 40k.


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 Kirasu wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
The game overall is horribly balanced in a campaign if I've played more games than other players have, and there are no real levers to fix this.

This was an issue in the original Necromunda as well, but the leveler was that the lower-ranked team got credit and experience bonuses at the end of the game, assuming they survived. So it was potentially risky but also quite lucrative to fight more powerful gangs than your own.

It's an issue in EVERY campaign game GW does with "EXP" since apparently they can't create any new ideas. You should never design a game where you gain bonuses for not playing (IE bottling and getting exp bonus). Makes for extremely lame campaigns.

That actually is less of a problem because you get less than the other guy, so if you want to actually win the campaign, this isn't a great plan (unless the other guy is going to totally wreck you, but that's hard to tell at the beginning)


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Ehldar wrote:
This is yet another total GW cluster. Total silence, bad assumptions, poor marketing and i wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't done on purpose with the classic "tell the investors we sold out of product" (by under producing). Pure silence on a product that is supposed this well received is a bad sign.

I think maybe we need to give them more than 10 minutes after the product goes on pre-order before we can declare "total silence in response to my demands". That's like walking up to a bank at 8 pm and sending customer service an irate email at 8:10 pm because no one is answering when you bang on the door to let you into the bank.

Any product that is goo will always sell out initially because they need to make sure they don't make way more copies than people wind up buying and lose out on a bunch of capital. Business 101 and happens all the time. They probably should just release a digital rulebook, as that would really help gauge demand, but you really do need a decent amount of terrain to play it the way they intend you to, which you might not have. And if you do (or have a nice FLGS like the one I play at), someone else will want the terrain. My FLGS actually will buy the terrain off of you on the spot if you don't want it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think maybe we need to give them more than 10 minutes after the product goes on pre-order before we can declare "total silence in response to my demands". That's like walking up to a bank at 8 pm and sending customer service an irate email at 8:10 pm because no one is answering when you bang on the door to let you into the bank.

Any product that is goo will always sell out initially because they need to make sure they don't make way more copies than people wind up buying and lose out on a bunch of capital. Business 101 and happens all the time. They probably should just release a digital rulebook, as that would really help gauge demand, but you really do need a decent amount of terrain to play it the way they intend you to, which you might not have. And if you do (or have a nice FLGS like the one I play at), someone else will want the terrain. My FLGS actually will buy the terrain off of you on the spot if you don't want it.

Having worked for a billion dollar corp on launch day of a product, you don't just get the web guys to post up a product day of launch, turn off the lights and go home. You monitor sales and have press releases at ready for ALL potential issues. This isn't the first time GW has done this either and they need to be called on it.

Business 101 needs need to learn that Reality 101 is here to stay and the same old crap isn't going to work.

GW Managers/store folk should be absolutely furious at having (supposed and by all indications) ZERO launch support again.

Aeneades wrote:

 dreadnova wrote:
For anyone else with a copy of the rulebook (borrowing my stores copy) it looks as if the scouts in the picture are new. I dont remember the scouts without sniper rifles having goggles and rebreathers as well as backpacks with tools and an auspex.

I believe they are a conversion that was featured in White Dwarf recently, they were discussed a few pages back. I believe the heads have been taken from Scout Bikers.

If by "recently" you mean 2006, then yes WD318.

Maybe house rule in a basic kill team rating similar to Necromunda, keep track of points spent and every advance = 10-20 value, if the model dies, subtract it off the rating.
SO's = 100 points just for that mission.
Then give an underdog bonus to the lower rated team: 200pts under = 1 free SO for the mission, 400pts under = 2 free SO's.
Unless you're limited to the number of special ops you can get per mission, then that wouldn't work.

It probably should have been 25% more money. Hopefully the demand that has been demonstrated on this print run will be taken into account for the next and they'll jack the price up a bit. It was obviously too cheap.

It looks like they consider Shadow War Armageddon to be the first in a series and will produce a sequel instead of keeping the Armageddon set in stores. And this is about the new terrain first and foremost.

I have no doubt they will make the Shadow War rulebook available via other channels.

The disappointment is fully understandable. Promoting a game online and at a big US trade show, but not having much stock of it, not a good thing.

But X-Wing had these issues for its first years too. Remember how annoying it was to buy their newest product? Privateer Press still has problems (at least in Europe afaik) with some parts of their range. This is after all a small business.

Let's hope GW will learn from it and produce more sets of SWA or a larger amount of a sequel product. This could easily be remade with a new scenario.

I guess the terrain was designed a while ago and they had several ideas how and when to sell it. This type of plastic terrain was communicated on GW events to come with a new edition of Necromunda from FW. We also heard it would be considered a Necro/40k crossover product. Fluffwise pretty obvious. Financially it is not a bad idea either as Necromunda sales were low the last time GW sold it and therefore may not have been worth such an investment, let's be honest.

Going by the WD they have put a lot of thought into designing the terrain and this is obviously a Citadel design studio product. I think the new sprues were actually the core of the development progress, and, as with most tabletop games, the most expensive.

But when Titanicus and therefore Necromunda were postponed but the terrain was already produced and waiting in the warehouse, they may have expanded the concept of Necromunda to Shadow War and released it instead. Not a bad idea, too, a ruleswise deeper skirmisher was missing from their portfolio. Killteam has always been played with the then current 40k rules. I prefer 2nd edition over 7th for small games too.

Rules for many 40k factions were already available via the large amount of Necromunda and 2nd Ed material (WD, CJ, Gang War, 2nd Ed codices), so they could expand from there on. I dont intend to call this a half-arsed attempt. Let's look at Laserburn, Confrontation and Necromunda and you can see how this works quite well.

I hope they will have made their investment back with this and the single terrain kit releases and it allows for dedicated Necromunda, Inquisimunda and/or Inquisitor28 boxed game releases in the future with the same terrain.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Via War of Sigmar

Warhams-77 wrote:
Via War of Sigmar

Spoiler:

Can't read the tiny blurry text. :(

True, but there is no better pic of this sheet (its from the box) currently available as far as I am aware

Warhams-77 wrote:
It looks like they consider Shadow War Armageddon to be the first in a series and will produce a sequel instead of keeping the Armageddon set in stores.

The fact that releasing a separate rulebook is a kneejerk response to demand rather than a planned part of the release suggests otherwise.

This was clearly a one -off release that they simply didn't expect many people to actually want.

Good point, but the original Necromunda rules werent for two or three years either. Even the current Blood Bowl rules arent available separately by now, are they? Not even digitally

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html

I dont think this is hinting at something other than they didnt believe they would sell so many.

Also, as it was asked a page or two earlier, GW has its own inhouse printing facility, they use it for softcover books mostly. The painting guides are produced inhouse afaik.

With 8th edition 40k and a new SM faction release ahead I think it is more a thing of logistics what will be produced first and what later

Can anyone eyeball what the difference between the Galvanic Magnavent and the Promethium Forge are?

Both have:

4 Archways
2 Ladders
1 Double-Ended Smoke Stack (the thing on the right side of the Alchomite Stack)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can anyone eyeball what the difference between the Galvanic Magnavent and the Promethium Forge are?

Both have:

4 Archways
2 Ladders
1 Double-Ended Smoke Stack (the thing on the right side of the Alchomite Stack)

The Prometheum Forge appears to have 4 ladders so maybe it's just a slightly different combination of sprues (1 extra platform/ladders sprue?)
But yes, they do look very similar.

It looks like twice the platform.

Looks like it's got the same extra bits that the incinerator has compared to the furnace.... finally, some bloody ladders for my cities of death!

I've seen some people say 'it's a Saturday, they'll probably make a statement Monday/are waiting for decisions from people who don't work weekends'' surely if you release things on a Saturday, you should have people working Saturdays who can deal with issues like this should they arise? Or release things on a day when people are working?

Warhams-77 wrote:
Good point, but the original Necromunda rules werent for two or three years either.

That's because Necromunda had a non-limited edition starter set produced in sufficient quantities to not sell out 10 minutes after it became available for sale...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In other news, would it be better for GW to increase production of the boxed set or just print the book? I see the second option as more likely, but it would be unfortunate for the people who wanted the amazing deal the set offers. Like I said upthread, digital only is a dumb option for a main rulebook.

Having a separate rulebook ready to go a few weeks after the box release would have been my preferred option, even if the box had not sold out. Having the rules readily available without having to shell out for the big box would IMO lead to more model sales, of both the usable kill teams and terrain.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Not to distract from the very truly warranted vitriol of this thread, but I found the heads I am putting on my Scouts.

Either these

Or these


I am leaning toward the second option since it give them helmets, but they are obviously not marines. They would fit with the limited armor Scouts wear.

In other news, would it be better for GW to increase production of the boxed set or just print the book? I see the second option as more likely, but it would be unfortunate for the people who wanted the amazing deal the set offers. Like I said upthread, digital only is a dumb option for a main rulebook.

I think both would sell well. Necromunda did good business for quite some time, and with current-edition 40k being such a clusterfeth right now, a lot of people appear to be have backed right out of the game. Even with 8th sometime this year, Necro-40k works as a proper gateway game, and probably far better than kill-team that still uses the existing nightmare rules (and needs codices, etc).

Warhams-77 wrote:
Good point, but the original Necromunda rules werent for two or three years either. Even the current Blood Bowl rules arent available separately by now, are they? Not even digitally

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html

I dont think this is hinting at something other than they didnt believe they would sell so many.

Also, as it was asked a page or two earlier, GW has its own inhouse printing facility, they use it for softcover books mostly. The painting guides are produced inhouse afaik.

With 8th edition 40k and a new SM faction release ahead I think it is more a thing of logistics what will be produced first and what later

The Blood Bowl rules are available in the Blood Bowl app for cheap, I think $10.

Ehldar wrote:
GW needs to fire their product managers, marketing team, social media team (or lack there of) and stop just producing hype and with no product to back it up.

Leeeetle bit of an overreaction there,no? FIRE EVERYONE AS I COULDN'T GET MY NEW TOYS.

What if... just what if... they made as many as possible, sold it into more markets than ever via trade shows, and the marketing generated unprecedented demand and everyone is simply doing their best? Or what if the marketing and social teams didn't get all the info, as happens in big businesses all too often? Or they didn't print enough cardboard boxes, simple stoopid error that limits how many they can make? Who knows. Many options, likely none of them 'let's deliberately short and mislead everyone'

But no, fire them all, obviously... balanced, mature, sensible reaction. Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I've seen some people say 'it's a Saturday, they'll probably make a statement Monday/are waiting for decisions from people who don't work weekends'' surely if you release things on a Saturday, you should have people working Saturdays who can deal with issues like this should they arise? Or release things on a day when people are working?

You'd think. But no. Every Saturday online retail launch I've ever seen has been a mismanaged clusterfeth of timed emails, broken links and too-fast sell-through. Businesses suck at getting their 9-5 staff to accommodate the 24/7 sales world. It's like they want a weekend or something... totally agree they should either draft people in or launch when they are in!

Well, I couldn't preoder any from the UK *or* my stores here online and offline, sooo I'm wondering how different the rules are compared to Necro 1st edition? I have that and could use that with the new teams plus whatever big rule changes, I guess.

Bloodbowl rules are available digitally £7.99 through the app...... As is death zone and a rules bundle.