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Are Force Manuals for AS, or both games?

And is it so wrong to just want plastic 1st Gen IS Omnis?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
I wasn't saying that Operation Bulldog was a different era. I was more trying to imply that there were a lot of new designs that were used in Operation Bulldog that should be made BEFORE leaving the Clan Invasion space completely. Even the FedCom Civil War isn't that big of an era, and most of the designs used there were technically from the Clan Invasion Era.

We already know that the Force Manuals will be set in the Succession Wars/Clan Invasion eras from some of the Adepticon AMA's and that the Faction-specific ForcePacks will support those Force Manuals. Although there's no indication how many Force Manuals there will be, the announcement mentioned Kurita, Mercenaries and Davion. I would also expect Steiner, Liao/St. Ives, Com Star/Free Rasalhague Republic and one or two Clan books. That will get a good number of 'Mechs out, but it will take some time.

There's also been mention of a few new Mercenary ForcePacks being pushed back in favor of the Faction ForcePacks along with rumors of some ilClan era 'Mechs being mixed in with the forthcoming Faction ForcePacks. We'll just have to wait and see how those rumors pan out.

First off, you missed the "If they progress this way".

However, that being said, they have also said that at least one Dark Age/IlClan design will be the Faction ForcePacks, like the Grey Death.

As well, there is NOTHING stating that these Faction ForcePacks will be the end of the situation. They are just the next step. In many ways, a lot of those CI designs which don't make it in to Faction ForcePacks could very well be put in to non-Faction Forcepacks just like a lot of the previously faction-focused designs were, like the Panther and Blackjack.

 Charistoph wrote:
First off, you missed the "If they progress this way".

That’s a given that always applies when talking about the future plans of a manufacturer, hence it’s not something that really needs to be mentioned.

 Charistoph wrote:
However, that being said, they have also said that at least one Dark Age/IlClan design will be the Faction ForcePacks, like the Grey Death.

Yes. I touched upon that as well in my previous post when I mentioned some rumors of ilClan era 'Mechs being mixed in with the forthcoming Faction-specific ForcePacks.

 Charistoph wrote:
As well, there is NOTHING stating that these Faction ForcePacks will be the end of the situation.

It's kind of hard to talk about what's NOT being said as it would just be speculation. Until Catalyst gives us a hint as to what will happen, all we know is that they're working on Faction-specific ForcePacks at the present time. What happens afterwards would just be speculation on our part.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
First off, you missed the "If they progress this way".

That’s a given that always applies when talking about the future plans of a manufacturer, hence it’s not something that really needs to be mentioned.

Correct, but you seemed to skip over that in your initial response as if I was making a statement on the situation rather than a conditional one.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
As well, there is NOTHING stating that these Faction ForcePacks will be the end of the situation.

It's kind of hard to talk about what's NOT being said as it would just be speculation. Until Catalyst gives us a hint as to what will happen, all we know is that they're working on Faction-specific ForcePacks at the present time. What happens afterwards would just be speculation on our part.

Indeed, but I think it is equally bold to consider to consider theses Faction ForcePacks as an end point or that they will completely skip over the second half of the Clan Invasion.

A preview of the BattleTech Universe book by Randall Bills:

Did a scenario game this weekend.

the defenders were send to take out a couple artillery tanks that were firing at an off board asset. they had 10 turns before the attackers finsihed their fire mission and withdrew.

As the defenders i was using 2nd line mechs-stone rhino, bowman 2, rifleman IIc and a point of minotaur protomechs. the attackers brought in a heavy mech lance and a mixed heavy/assault vehicle lance. the game made it to turn 6 before the attackers conceded. having lost their thunderbolt to a pilot kill and their warhammer to leg removal and one tank taking an engine kill. for the loss of a few protomechs on the defenders side with moderate damage to the rifleman.

@aphyon: Impressive table.

Bowman is certainly an odd thing to see, even if it is the non-Arrow version.

the bowman 2 is actually a pretty decent mech for a clan non-omni

2 LRM 20, 3 er mediums, 1 ER large, ECM and B pods that doesn't overheat as long as you don't fire 1 er medium.

When i first started using it with the new gamers they were going "what is that thing?"

Protomechs in an urban environment can be nasty. They don't fall or skid at all, and can easily chase Infantry in to Buildings.

Are protomechs particularly broken? They seem to be listed on the winning side an awful lot, and its hard to tell if its player skill or if the rule set gives them a natural advantage

I mean player skill translates into correct unit choice, and then effective use of those units as well.

 Flinty wrote:
Are protomechs particularly broken? They seem to be listed on the winning side an awful lot, and its hard to tell if its player skill or if the rule set gives them a natural advantage

I mean player skill translates into correct unit choice, and then effective use of those units as well.

Only in large numbers. as a general rule i will only bring a single point (5). we have done games with up to 3 points of protos (15) in a star and they just wrecked clan assault mechs, granted i was using some of the best designed protos, but it was pretty savage.



protos are a double edged sword. every internal hit causes pilot damage so they tend to die that way instead of just destruction. on the flip side via the rules if you are just using standard pilots they are gunnery 2 because of the same EI interface that makes them susceptible to pilot damage. the big things that make them harder to deal with is the fact they are in the line between being both infantry and mechs. they move and shoot like mechs but cannot fall down like infantry, and they do not overheat. you also have to target each one individually instead of like shooting and a point of battle armor then randomizing the damage. then there is the "near miss" chart. against anything except area effect (think artillery) if you score a hit and then roll locations 3 or 11 it is counted as a near miss (area effect weapons get re-rolled) because of the agility of the proto...think of it like they kind of do the matrix thing.

Last not all protos are created equal. some can soak a ton of damage like the svartalfa who can tank an AC 20 to the chest and still have armor to spare. others like the ROC rely on speed as they have given up quite a bit of armor to pack around a single clan ER medium while moving as fast as a timber wolf.

There are plenty of things that can be abused in battle tech with just the standard rules, outside of scenarios for example i avoid bringing TAG units with multiple arrow IV support units in my lances/stars as it quickly makes the game less fun for the opposing player. Nothing ends a game like getting red dotted and then having 4 arrow IV homing missile volleys hit you on 4+ for 20 damage a pop.

When playing clans as a hells horse i tend to try and bring combined arms, as such i always try to bring something infantry related. instead of protomechs, packing along a point of Gnome battle armor riding a TYR IFV is still a pretty decent threat.

 Flinty wrote:
Are protomechs particularly broken? They seem to be listed on the winning side an awful lot, and its hard to tell if its player skill or if the rule set gives them a natural advantage

I mean player skill translates into correct unit choice, and then effective use of those units as well.

Not as far as I've noticed, but it could be due to who I play with, too.

The biggest problem people seem to have, at least initially, is how many units they provide and the Near Miss mechanic. Which leads to what my opponents do to deal with them. They hit them like they were an Ultralight Mech, rather than if they were Battle Armor. So, unlike Aphyon, I've never lost a Protomech due to Pilot Damage (though, I haven't run any Ultra-Heavies, so that may be why). I've had one knocked out exactly once (SRMs or LB-X once the Armor was gone), and had a couple get Legged. Most though, get the Torso punched out PDQ with Large Laser and heavy Autocannon fire.

I've never played more than 2 Points, though. My usual configuration is one having a Satyr 4 (TAG and AP Gauss) and 4 Gorgon Standards (LRM-10) with the second being another Satyr 4, 2 Roc Standards (ER Medium Laser), and 2 Basilisk 3s (which are almost identical to Roc Standards if you always Jump).

In our normal games, we have an objective to have an opponent get points for having units in the opponent's deployment zone. The Satyrs, and maybe a Firemoth, Icestorm, or Dragonfly, take on this duty. When Mixed Tech is allowed, the Satyrs take on another roll in TAGging for the Gorgons which are loaded with Semi-Guided LRMs.

In the last game I played, though, I used 2 Roc Standards, and 3 Gorgons with a Dragonfly and Ice Ferret to ferry 2 Flamer Elementals with a Gargoyle D backing them up. The Rocs kept a couple hopping Warhammers busy while the Ice Ferret and Dragonfly raced up to drop off the Elementals near an Infantry Thumper and a Sagittaire. The Ice Ferret died (bad terrain), but not before dropping off the Elementals. After dropping off the other Elemental, the Dragonfly went to try and kill another Infantry unit on the side that was covering another Saggitaire.

Interestingly enough, I've never lost a Gorgon. Satyrs, Rocs, and Basilisks, sure, but not a single Gorgon. Probably because I never play them with anything but the LRM-10, so they are always saying back.

Are they the ultimate in MSU then? Mech grade weapons and manoeuvrability, leading to target saturation? Should they be able to combine Voltron style to form one larger mech?

 Flinty wrote:
Are they the ultimate in MSU then? Mech grade weapons and manoeuvrability, leading to target saturation? Should they be able to combine Voltron style to form one larger mech?

When a point of proto mechs activate they activate as if they were a single mech as in they all must move and shoot in the same activation, however they can directionally move and target independently. as you said however the true strength is in combined fire. a point of 5 minotaurs can fire all 10 of their clan er mediums at a single target without overheating. for a potential of 70 damage every turn. return fire however must be directed at each proto mech individually.

 Flinty wrote:
Are they the ultimate in MSU then? Mech grade weapons and manoeuvrability, leading to target saturation? Should they be able to combine Voltron style to form one larger mech?

Not quite, but they are better than Battle Armor in most cases in terms of shooting or mobility. Battle Armor have the advantage of being able to Swarm or Leg another unit, while the Protomech just flails around doing 1-2 Damage.

As with any military asset, how you use what you have is important. I probably wouldn't send a Star of Protomechs against a Star of Mechs on their own, but use them to harass and whittle at targets while my heavier units do the real pounding.

 aphyon wrote:
When a point of proto mechs activate they activate as if they were a single mech as in they all must move and shoot in the same activation, however they can directionally move and target independently. as you said however the true strength is in combined fire. a point of 5 minotaurs can fire all 10 of their clan er mediums at a single target without overheating. for a potential of 70 damage every turn. return fire however must be directed at each proto mech individually.

Yeah, but while those Minotaurs may hit like a Nova who doesn't care about their Heat Level, they only move like a Marauder II. The Rocs may move like a Nova, but only hit like one of their Arms as a full Point.

Pros and cons- return fire against a single nova is a bit different than having to spread the fire across 5 different targets.

The minotaurs specifically were designed for the situation i used them in-defensive ambush, so being slow wasn't really a problem for them.

My personal favorite proto is a mech force UK variant that combines the best of worlds-the demon tick-9 tons with max engine, max armor with 2 clan er smalls. with a 7/11/7 move it more than makes up for the reduced range and can soak more damage than a minotaur. putting out constant 50 damage from an equivalent 45 ton mech is hard to come by.

The premium Rifleman and premium Phoenix Hawk have been updated to fix their problems (e.g., no more Rifleboy} and are up for sale in the Catalyst web store.

For those who are not signed up for the Catalyst Game Labs newsletter, PAX Unplugged is December 1st-3rd:

Wonder what the Force Packs will be...

did a 3070 era game this weekend

I was running a bushwacker (the lyran one with the LBX20), falconer, gunslinger and trebaruna. (10th lyran guards)

i was facing a blackjack (omni), catapult, sagittare, banshee (he is taurian not sure which unit)

Even though i was loosing initiative almost every turn for most of the game i was ahead because my opponent couldn't see to hit with most of his shots, then things took a wild swing. it was mostly due to crits-the bushwhacker lost a torso with engine hits putting him into forced withdrawal, likewise the gunslinger took a single crit on his right leg and my opponent rolled double 6s severing the leg, the falconer took a crit in the left leg and lost his hip.making him a sitting duck for the sag and cat. and the treburuna took multiple gauss rifle crits that put the pilot to sleep. i di manage to kill the banshee and blackjack and nearly killed the cat, but i didn't manage to do much to the sagittare as it spent a good deal of the game hiding and trying to close the range for all it's pulse lasers.

Trebaruna?

*jumps to Sarna*

That's a remarkably underarmed 95-tonner. I get that it has 5 IJJs, but even so, a Gauss Rifle and only 3 Light PPCs is a bit on the anemic side.

I'm using the one with the improved heavy gauss, ER PPC and 204 points of hardened armor.

Hardened armour. That'll do it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wonder what the Force Packs will be...

We know of the Faction ForcePacks coming, so it COULD be that. But, we can always hope for some more, too.

my guess is the first two force packs announced will be Davion and Kurita, in that order, to coincide with the force manual (or whatever they're called) releases

BrianDavion wrote:
my guess is the first two force packs announced will be Davion and Kurita, in that order, to coincide with the force manual (or whatever they're called) releases

Not necessarily. They could be additional Mercenary ForcePacks (e.g., the Gray Death Legion Heavy Battle Lance or the Snord's Irregulars Assault Lance) or generic Lance or Star ForcePacks.

 Ghaz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
my guess is the first two force packs announced will be Davion and Kurita, in that order, to coincide with the force manual (or whatever they're called) releases

Not necessarily. They could be additional Mercenary ForcePacks (e.g., the Gray Death Legion Heavy Battle Lance or the Snord's Irregulars Assault Lance) or generic Lance or Star ForcePacks.

sorry I was specificly specificly faction force packs, they wanna do em and the general consensus is that CGL is going to release them to tie in with the force manuals.

They already have plans for the Faction Forcepacks (FFPs), and have said they will each include a Dark Age or ilClan Era design in each.

So far, that's all they have announced. So I think the FFPs are the given.

The question is will they have more that will include more TRO: 3055 and TRO:3058 designs beyond them.

Then there are more Vehicle Support Packs being possible, too. TRO: 3026 carried a LOT of interesting designs.

 Charistoph wrote:
Then there are more Vehicle Support Packs being possible, too. TRO: 3026 carried a LOT of interesting designs.

I wouldn't expect any more Vehicle Support Packs until they see how well the ones coming in the Kickstarter do in general retail.