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Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




Marines are just boring.

Even before being vastly over-represented, including the many variations (wolfy marines, bloody marines, spikey marines, holier-than-thou marines, girly marines....), they're just boring and bland.

Their identity is boredom itself and I can see how playing against Marines every day is just boring.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






If I had spent six months putting my money and time into an army of space marines, I'd play them regardless of what other people had to say about them.

SG

40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, the same ability Orks have lol.


What, USRs are too simple to be Chapter Tactics now? Hit and Run/Skilled Rider on White Scars, Crusader/Adamantium Will and conditional Counterattack/Rage on Black Templars? You can complain that base-Codex Chapters and the Dark Angels have more USRs than you do, but if Chapter Tactics had to be unique and unavailable to anyone else in the game you'd end up with a much, much more bloated system than we've got.

(Just checked on the Legion rules in 30k out of curiosity and I've discovered that the Blood Angels there do very close to the same thing (+1 to wound in all rounds of combat rather than just +1S in the first round, plus a few minor drawbacks), and I know they're regarded as quite strong. Come to the 31st Milennium. We have infantry, a no-Titans-allowed rule, and a Tau species that hasn't discovered spaceflight.)

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

I can still play Tau in 30k. Just need to dump some cheap caviar on the board.



Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

locarno24 wrote:
They also have alot of jump pack-ey, melee formations. A death company army is definitely very orky in how shock-heavy it is: given furious charge, rage, and effectively shred and hatred on the charge (chaplain) theyre about four times as dedtructive as in a "normal" assault phase...

Ultimately, "oh, they're just marines" is no more valid than any sweeping generalization. You might as well say necrons are just marines with feel no pain.

Necrons are more different from marines than marines are from each other.


These are more different from each other than these:


You're trying desperately to stretch it arguing otherwise. If you honestly think necrons and marines are the same, you've lost all perspective in your attempt at defense of the massive proliferation of Space Marine rulesets. Might as well say "Orks and Guard are basically the same because they both have less than four ballistics skill", it's equally ridiculous and lore-ignoring as what you just said.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 15:42:00


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






 Smotejob wrote:
and now that I have been bringing this army to play, there is usually someone that makes a statement along the lines of "space marines, ugh!" Or "I can't stand space marines." It is never my opponent, but it is becoming really annoying. It is every. single. time.


Familiarity breeds contempt.

Space Marines are the posterboys for the setting, they also receive regular rules support and have an extensive miniature range that is relatively easy to paint and convert to varying degrees of complexity. With a solid blend of exposure to new players, consistent crunch and hobby versatility in a tabletop game that requires so much time and money, it's really not hard to see why people would choose to invest in Space Marines.

Variety is nice, but I wouldn't stop collecting CSM just because some other people are bored of playing against them and I don't see why Space Marine players should have to either. At the end of the day, it's not nice playing an under-supported faction and really it's up to Gee Dubz to make other factions more enticing (as they seem to have done with Tau and Eldar) rather than the community bullying their fellow hobbyists into collecting something else.


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

I'm not really a fan of games wit Space Marines where both players bring Space Marine. It's been tired for a few editions now those games quickly feel more like who brings the better/best Low AP weapons and who has better dice. It's also a reason I can't stay excited about games of 30K. Not saying the 30K games haven't been fun, they have. Mostly due to Maelstrom missions. I've played only one game of 30/40K this year. Not really sure when I'll be looking forward to either.

The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






depends what you run. and if you accurately represent what you are bringing.

If you bring a "themed list" and a "fluffy game" that is librarian conclave, captain smashfetcher, and a gladius.... well I don't feel like bothering to play that game 2++ and an extra few hundred points in free trandports in your favor... no thanks.

if you are running a CAD or say upfront "I am bringing a high level list so bring your tournament level list" then sure lets throw some dice and have some fun.

10000 points 7000
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Made in us
Lurking Gaunt






its not that I hate playing them, its just that I'm spiteful. when you go to choose an army off of the games workshop site, and you look through the armies, you see a few things. one, space marines look kinda cool, and have like 10 pages of units. and you see the rest, which maybe you like better, but their unit choice is tiny. leaving you thinking "hmm should I have an army that has many different units, or an army with like 5." this gets even worse if you were to look into opinions and games a bit before deciding. on which you see that, "yeah if you don't choose Eldar, Tau, or Space Marines you might as well give up on competitive play" and so naturally people like the top tier army with many units (SM), opposed to something like tyranids which seems to be this trash tier reject of an army. so yeah, just annoyed on how biased GW is on their marketing.

[Edit] I should say however that playing SM shouldn't mean you are looked down upon, this game is built around community.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 16:16:46


 
   
Made in es
Brutal Black Orc




Barcelona, Spain

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Space Marines have been accused of being incredibly dull featureless-protagonist mary-sues that get too much attention and weaken the narrative of the setting simply by existing, let alone by featuring as the protagonists constantly.

To which I say "Space Marines aren't boring, but they're frequently made boring by bad writers." Go read the Horus Heresy books for good examples of Space Marines not being boring.

As to the gameplay problems I took account recently and discovered that there exist close to seventy distinct 'Space Marine' lists (between 40k, 30k, variations based on Chapter Tactics...), and I doubt your commenters manage to hate every single one of them equally.


Because 30k marines are a totally different beast respect their successors in 40k. They weren't mind-wiped, brainwashed religious zealots with no-personality back then. It still doesn't mean that space marines in 40k lack personaloity since it's been lobotomized by and large.
   
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USA

IMO, 30k lore is trash compared to 40k. In fact, the main reason 40k is so bad is because 30k keeps leaking its crappiness out in to it.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Lumping all space marine categories together is certainly your call. I mean I wouldn't do it - it's just not accurate if you look at the units in terms of fluff / aesthetic / playstyle. Hence my comment about 3+ saves. If that's what's bugging you, I mean, that's a bummer, 3+ saves are everywhere.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

 Melissia wrote:
IMO, 30k lore is trash compared to 40k. In fact, the main reason 40k is so bad is because 30k keeps leaking its crappiness out in to it.


That seems like a strange way to look at it. Unless you referring to 30K mini's and units being stuck into 40K on the table top?

The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






warhead01 wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
IMO, 30k lore is trash compared to 40k. In fact, the main reason 40k is so bad is because 30k keeps leaking its crappiness out in to it.


That seems like a strange way to look at it. Unless you referring to 30K mini's and units being stuck into 40K on the table top?


I'm no fan of the Horus Heresy series myself but 40k had plenty of egregious fluff before 30k was really a thing anyway. In any case, that's surely a problem with the 40k writers and editorial direction than 30k itself.

I'm glad for the miniatures though, they add some much needed visual variety to power-armoured armies.

 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon






Herefordshire

 Marmatag wrote:
Lumping all space marine categories together is certainly your call. I mean I wouldn't do it - it's just not accurate if you look at the units in terms of fluff / aesthetic / playstyle. Hence my comment about 3+ saves. If that's what's bugging you, I mean, that's a bummer, 3+ saves are everywhere.

I personally wouldn't lump CSM in with LSM they are different enough, though there is a bit of overlap. The rest though are really are pretty much interchangable with each other with only BA and SW being significantly different from the rest (and then not by much). The difference between DA and Ultramarines is less than the difference between Tau and Farsight Enclave or IG and DKoK, in terms of playstyle and aesthetics.
   
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 SolarCross wrote:
The rest though are really are pretty much interchangable with each other with only BA and SW being significantly different from the rest (and then not by much). The difference between DA and Ultramarines is less than the difference between Tau and Farsight Enclave or IG and DKoK, in terms of playstyle and aesthetics.

I disagree with the SW bit, other than TWC and wulfen they're identical to DA/SM, it's just that most SW armies tend to spam TWC. In general, between the 4, they're all the same except for a handful of different units: BA have dreads and jump, DA have bikes and terminators, SW have wolfy wolf wolfers.... but everything else is a carbon copy of the main SM codex.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Melissia wrote:
IMO, 30k lore is trash compared to 40k. In fact, the main reason 40k is so bad is because 30k keeps leaking its crappiness out in to it.

100% agree.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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 Melissia wrote:
IMO, 30k lore is trash compared to 40k. In fact, the main reason 40k is so bad is because 30k keeps leaking its crappiness out in to it.


I don't think they're that easily separable. The '30k lore' consists of writers expanding on stories that have been intrinsic parts of 40k since at least 4e (possibly earlier, but that's when I started playing); there have certainly been bits of both that are gibberish/terrible messes, but that seems to me to depend on the writer rather than on whether it's 30k or 40k.

30k is certainly guilty of an excessive focus on Space Marines, but 40k is at least as guilty there. There's been enough nonsense, gibberish, deus ex machinas, unsympathetic characters, inconsistencies, bizarre decisions, and all-round bad writing on both sides to fill many, many books. Both sides have produced fabulous moments, engaging characters, iconic perspectives, things that will forever shape how I see and interact with the setting.

30k lore feels to me like it doesn't take the galaxy for granted the way 40k lore does; since 5e 40k lore has stepped outside of the minds of the characters and tried to be an omniscient narrator, and it's sort of wrecked the sense of the place you got from the first-person accounts, apocalyptic logs, and lower-level human narratives in older lore. It's become too sanitized, too organized, too neat, too explained; the writers are so worried you won't pick up on the weird twist they just thought of they'll have the narrator sit you down and walk you through exactly what's happening, regardless of whether it's even remotely necessary to the scene or whether what they're saying makes even a modicum of sense (see: the end of Wrath of Magnus). They've also lost sight of one of the cardinal rules of writing game lore; if you're trying to make sure your story is understandable as a battle report, you've missed the point of writing lore. Lore isn't there to tell you what happened on the table, it's there to give context, deal with the wider setting, tell us why things are happening on the table. 30k isn't afraid to show us things in the setting that don't exist on the tabletop; we get civilians, psykers who do things that aren't on a psychic-powers table in the rulebook, buildings, non-combat activities, people wearing things other than power armour, attempts to look at why the battles are happening rather than simply taking it for granted and moving on.

30k lore tries to put us into the heads of the characters, instead of sending an omniscient narrator to lecture us about how awesome his toys are who has to poke us and say "see what I did there?" every five minutes. I feel like it's doing the sort of things that 40k lore today has forgotten how to do; I gave up on reading the 'background' section of my Codexes around when they told me that my Salamanders worship Guilliman/aspire to be Ultramarines and that my Grey Knights slaughter their allies to paint their armour in blood, but I'm still reading the 30k books.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Not really. 30k is a story about godly gods amongst men bickering like children as they kill other godly gods amongst men and their godly gods that aren't quite as godly as them but still most certianly better than you you filthy puny human. And reading in-depth stories about them bickering like schoolyard brats does not appeal to me over the grand, dark narrative that permeated the setting before 30k became so dully and incompetently expanded upon and then shoveled in to 40k through things like Rise of the Primarch.

The primarchs are just plain... boring, outside of being legendary figures that we have forgotten more about than we currently know. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying every 30k book is garbage, and (and I shouldn't even have to say this, but I do apparently because people get offended that I don't like the same crap they do) the fact that I don't like it shouldn't diminish your love for it. It just doesn't appeal to me .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 20:26:57


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





I play a White Scars (successor) grav bike list, a Chaos Death Guard list, and a Trukk boyz Ork list. I love playing agaist Marines! Eapecally the Codex compliant ones. Thunder Wolf Space Wolves and Drop pod spam Blood Angels not so much...

Marine battles are usually more or less balanced. When you see Tau or Eldar, you know its gonna be an uphill battle from the start.
   
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USA

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I play a White Scars (successor) grav bike list, a Chaos Death Guard list, and a Trukk boyz Ork list. I love playing agaist Marines! Eapecally the Codex compliant ones. Thunder Wolf Space Wolves and Drop pod spam Blood Angels not so much...

Marine battles are usually more or less balanced.

Codex: Space Marines are top tier alongside Eldar and Tau, you realize?

Even their weaker lists are still stronger than most non-Marine books.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Melissia wrote:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I play a White Scars (successor) grav bike list, a Chaos Death Guard list, and a Trukk boyz Ork list. I love playing agaist Marines! Eapecally the Codex compliant ones. Thunder Wolf Space Wolves and Drop pod spam Blood Angels not so much...

Marine battles are usually more or less balanced.

Codex: Space Marines are top tier alongside Eldar and Tau, you realize?

Even their weaker lists are still stronger than most non-Marine books.


only if you build very specific lists. it might shock you but not everyone runs bike spam with grav or Battlecompanies.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
only if you build very specific lists

Yawn.
 Melissia wrote:
Even their weaker lists are still stronger than most non-Marine books.

Already answered your objection.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 22:36:15


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon






Herefordshire

BrianDavion wrote:
[
only if you build very specific lists. it might shock you but not everyone runs bike spam with grav or Battlecompanies.

The same might be said of Tau and Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/21 22:34:50


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Even their weaker lists are still stronger than most non-Marine book"

This is patently false. Most marine unit entries are not that good without their gimmicks. Imperial heavy weapons outside grav are quite poor.
   
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USA

Compared to Eldar, Tau, and Marine top tier lists maybe.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




No, lots of lists. Marines lose to Orks and DE all the time with the non-competitive builds.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
No, lots of lists. Marines lose to Orks and DE all the time with the non-competitive builds.


Everyone can lose to everyone in Non-Competitive builds
   
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Well, their "weaker builds" were being discussed. So, I figure that's pretty relevant. Weak marine builds are pretty damn weak. Roll out your tactical terminators and see how that goes for you.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Imperial heavy weapons outside grav are quite poor.

Marine heavy weapons are on par with or better than every other army. Outside of scatter lasers and HYMP (the two best heavy weapons from those armies) what heavy weapons are better than marine ones? Even my guard, who get the same weapons, suck in comparison because HWTs are garbage.
   
 
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