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 infinite_array wrote:

Now these, I like.
Hopefully they won't cost too much with all the cards, tokens, etc they'll come with.

Tyranid dogs.

Besides the hounds, and possibly the Skornepion, those demons are superbly bland. Someone would have had to take classes, apprentice, and then defend a dissertation in Boring Studies to crelate that range. I applaud their work ethic.

Never been a fan of demon factions, that'll be a pass for me (though the fleshhounds remind me of alien's xenomorphs ).

Our escalation group got together this last Saturday and I watched a game being played (left my stupid cards at home...). The one thing that worried me is that this game is going to become Herohammer, and be all about the Hero units. That is, unfortunately, drove me away from WHFB and why I won't play with characters in 40K. If Runewars becomes get a powerful character or GTFO, I'll be shortly dropping the game.

Herohammer is pretty much what the culture loves.

 auticus wrote:
Herohammer is pretty much what the culture loves.

Maybe that's just an aspect of rank-and-file fantasy games in 28mm?

Maybe. that could be. I've never seen a wargame since the mid 90s where the players didn't enjoy hero hammer though and any non-28mm games simply aren't played here and haven't been seen since Bill Clinton was in office.

Maybe that's why?

 auticus wrote:
Maybe. that could be. I've never seen a wargame since the mid 90s where the players didn't enjoy hero hammer though and any non-28mm games simply aren't played here and haven't been seen since Bill Clinton was in office.

Maybe that's why?

the bigger the scale gets, the more Hero centric they get. Look at the few 54mm or 75mm that exist, they are all pure hero games.

 Digclaw wrote:
Hey look its Skorne!!!!!

They must have started production on these before PP posted the fix for Skorne.

Is FFG just making this to catch disgruntled players from other games instead of making it its own game?

Are you under the impression that the Uthuk Y'llan are *new*?

They've been a faction in every single Runebound universe game for several years.

 Stormonu wrote:
Never been a fan of demon factions, that'll be a pass for me (though the fleshhounds remind me of alien's xenomorphs ).

Our escalation group got together this last Saturday and I watched a game being played (left my stupid cards at home...). The one thing that worried me is that this game is going to become Herohammer, and be all about the Hero units. That is, unfortunately, drove me away from WHFB and why I won't play with characters in 40K. If Runewars becomes get a powerful character or GTFO, I'll be shortly dropping the game.

I wouldn't worry.

Play the game more. Heroes drop like flies if they try to go toe-to-toe with infantry formations. They're mostly support/specialist units.

Tvayumat wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
Hey look its Skorne!!!!!

They must have started production on these before PP posted the fix for Skorne.

Is FFG just making this to catch disgruntled players from other games instead of making it its own game?

Are you under the impression that the Uthuk Y'llan are *new*?

They've been a faction in every single Runebound universe game for several years.

 Stormonu wrote:
Never been a fan of demon factions, that'll be a pass for me (though the fleshhounds remind me of alien's xenomorphs ).

Our escalation group got together this last Saturday and I watched a game being played (left my stupid cards at home...). The one thing that worried me is that this game is going to become Herohammer, and be all about the Hero units. That is, unfortunately, drove me away from WHFB and why I won't play with characters in 40K. If Runewars becomes get a powerful character or GTFO, I'll be shortly dropping the game.

I wouldn't worry.

Play the game more. Heroes drop like flies if they try to go toe-to-toe with infantry formations. They're mostly support/specialist units.

Honestly, I don't really see the skorne comparison either. If anything, they remind me of the Inferno faction from Heroes of Might & Magic 6... or should it be the Inferno that reminds me of the Uthuk?

Tvayumat wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
Hey look its Skorne!!!!!

They must have started production on these before PP posted the fix for Skorne.

Is FFG just making this to catch disgruntled players from other games instead of making it its own game?

Are you under the impression that the Uthuk Y'llan are *new*?

They've been a faction in every single Runebound universe game for several years.

 Stormonu wrote:
Never been a fan of demon factions, that'll be a pass for me (though the fleshhounds remind me of alien's xenomorphs ).

Our escalation group got together this last Saturday and I watched a game being played (left my stupid cards at home...). The one thing that worried me is that this game is going to become Herohammer, and be all about the Hero units. That is, unfortunately, drove me away from WHFB and why I won't play with characters in 40K. If Runewars becomes get a powerful character or GTFO, I'll be shortly dropping the game.

I wouldn't worry.

Play the game more. Heroes drop like flies if they try to go toe-to-toe with infantry formations. They're mostly support/specialist units.

Their release schedule does come off opportunistic. First a rank and flank game using X-Wing Mechanics hoping to take advantage of the hole created by the end of WHFB (I still think they are too late to the party to do that). Then the First expansion race is Elves (which many in the AOS community are demanding get revamped and released since they are being ignored). Then they release a very Skorne like faction in the wake of Mrk III hordes complete nerfing of the faction (And it doesn't matter how old the fation is, they are still desert demons just like skorne).

Also, Skorne first appeared in 2001 as part of the Witchfire trilogy, predating Runebound by 4 years. And finally nobody cares about the universe, they only care about specific games set in that universe. I still think FFG are trying to snipe disgruntled players of other systems rather than making it its own thing.

 Digclaw wrote:

Tvayumat wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
Hey look its Skorne!!!!!

They must have started production on these before PP posted the fix for Skorne.

Is FFG just making this to catch disgruntled players from other games instead of making it its own game?

Are you under the impression that the Uthuk Y'llan are *new*?

They've been a faction in every single Runebound universe game for several years.

 Stormonu wrote:
Never been a fan of demon factions, that'll be a pass for me (though the fleshhounds remind me of alien's xenomorphs ).

Our escalation group got together this last Saturday and I watched a game being played (left my stupid cards at home...). The one thing that worried me is that this game is going to become Herohammer, and be all about the Hero units. That is, unfortunately, drove me away from WHFB and why I won't play with characters in 40K. If Runewars becomes get a powerful character or GTFO, I'll be shortly dropping the game.

I wouldn't worry.

Play the game more. Heroes drop like flies if they try to go toe-to-toe with infantry formations. They're mostly support/specialist units.

Their release schedule does come off opportunistic. First a rank and flank game using X-Wing Mechanics hoping to take advantage of the hole created by the end of WHFB (I still think they are too late to the party to do that). Then the First expansion race is Elves (which many in the AOS community are demanding get revamped and released since they are being ignored). Then they release a very Skorne like faction in the wake of Mrk III hordes complete nerfing of the faction (And it doesn't matter how old the fation is, they are still desert demons just like skorne).

Also, Skorne first appeared in 2001 as part of the Witchfire trilogy, predating Runebound by 4 years. And finally nobody cares about the universe, they only care about specific games set in that universe. I still think FFG are trying to snipe disgruntled players of other systems rather than making it its own thing.

Well, since we are establishing a timeline, the Uthuk Y'llan originate in Disk Wars, released in 1999. (Runebound UNIVERSE, not Runebound: The board game)

I guess it's a good thing FFG isn't too worried about PP copying them two years later, since they are apparently so similar.

I'm not even sure what the complaint is about the timing. They made a game, they released it, they want it to sell. Why would they NOT try and time that to pick up fall-offs from similarly themed games? How is that a bad thing?

 Mangod wrote:

Honestly, I don't really see the skorne comparison either. If anything, they remind me of the Inferno faction from Heroes of Might & Magic 6... or should it be the Inferno that reminds me of the Uthuk?

This, more than anything. Also... Inferno was awesome. Where are my Gogs?

Every time I see the "X faction from Y game is copying Z faction from XY game" all I really hear is "I haven't really delved into enough fantasy to know how basically everything is a slight modification of everything else"

There's nothing new under the sun, and the most popular game company out there (GW) is basically one big monetized ripoff machine.

This isn't a *bad* thing. It's the reality of the genre.

Tvayumat wrote:

Well, since we are establishing a timeline, the Uthuk Y'llan originate in Disk Wars, released in 1999. (Runebound UNIVERSE, not Runebound: The board game)

I guess it's a good thing FFG isn't too worried about PP copying them two years later, since they are apparently so similar.

I'm not even sure what the complaint is about the timing. They made a game, they released it, they want it to sell. Why would they NOT try and time that to pick up fall-offs from similarly themed games? How is that a bad thing?

Timing is an important factor, because they announced it after the Rank and Flank hole had already started to seal itself, like they took too long developing Rune Wars.

Honestly in the long run, I have no idea how well this game will do.
FFG's history with miniatures games is bad.
FFG's history of supporting games is bad.
The choice of setting is odd because most of their miniatures successes have been Star Wars.
FFG does have a loyal fan base that will buy up almost anything new they release.
FFG gave out many of copies of the core set to Youtubers and at Adepticon. (And I don't just mean Dice Tower, they gave copies to Miniature Channels as well)
They have done a lot to support and promote this game.
Other than Adepticon and the initial release right after, I really haven't seen much buzz for this game.

GenCon will probably bring the next big announcement for it. We'll see how things go

Wait - Disk Wars was set in the Runebound universe?

I have some of those boxed sets, I need to go back and look at them...

I saw the new faction announced and my first thought was "that's...brave".

Is there any public info on whether or not this game is a complete flop or not?

It's been out for two months. Hard to flop in such a short amount of time

I'm sure FFG already has content in the pipeline for the next year or so.

This whole talk of FFG dropping support for products by Digclaw is really blown out of proportion. I think he just hates the company for some reason.

FFG does tend to drop things suddenly and without warning before they are completed when they aren't getting their money back. Which leads to people hesitating to see if things go off before purchasing leading to stuff being pulled prior to generating steam. It has happened quite a bit. That said this is probably going to be supported for at least a year before they review if they are keeping it.

Remains D.O.A. round my neck of the woods.

Our community may not be exactly massive (smol town), but it's not GW dominated either (Infinity is popular, as is X-Wing to a lesser degree).

Not sure what, if anything that says about the game's overall health. Probably nowt!

All we have are anecdotes but... here in San Antonio, we have a pretty lively scene with a good number of players excited about new releases.

It's a great game. Fun, well balanced, competitive, thematic, and easy to get into painting with.

 Stormonu wrote:
Wait - Disk Wars was set in the Runebound universe?

I have some of those boxed sets, I need to go back and look at them...

As I recall, it's sort of the "way back when" for the current Runewars storyline. Waiqar is a hero character in Disk Wars, these days he is Waiqar the Undying.

Those demon things look cool, but I've seen like zero interest in the game here. The figures look neat, but I'm not spending money on it since I haven't seen anyone play, I think once I saw someone say they bought it, and had the box, but that was it. I have not seen a game of it played, it has no night (maybe board game night? I'm not sure), and there is no Runewars community.

 Hulksmash wrote:
FFG does tend to drop things suddenly and without warning before they are completed when they aren't getting their money back. Which leads to people hesitating to see if things go off before purchasing leading to stuff being pulled prior to generating steam. It has happened quite a bit. That said this is probably going to be supported for at least a year before they review if they are keeping it.

What games are you specifically referring to? Dust? Wasn't that a very long time ago, and FFG taking on another company's IP? The GW stuff? Well that's the big workshop pulling their IP from FFG.

I've heard this same criticism a lot in this thread and it's never really been substantiated.

BL2 might be a possible consideration/example?
Came out in 2013 and was on clearance by 2016.
FFG refused to do any organized play in order to focus on Star Wars stuff.

They apparently also think it's the dials, templates and cards that made X-Wing such a hit instead of it having Star Wars on the box cover (yes, the game is good but doesn't mean it adapts to every setting).

The same one copy of Runewars is sitting on the shelf at one FGS. X-Wing has been clearanced as has Imperial Assault and the capital ship game from SW, can't remember the name.The 40k release has gotten everyone's attention locally.

To be fair, the same basic system has worked for space fighters, big starships, biplanes, Spitfires and Messerschmits, 18th-century warships and sparrows; as a planning and order mechanism for moving blocks of troops around, it seems to work fine. Visually, though, the game doesn't appeal to me - there's not enough models in the units for my taste (a dozen guys - not even taking a flag for a walk! - shouldn't have that much trouble moving around, and the thick sabot bases and all the dials and counters are too obtrusive on the tabletop for me.

Maybe in the future something will come along that changes my mind, but at the moment, no thanks. I won't even be picking up a hero here and there to use in Frostgrave, because all the extra material in the package pushes the price up too high to be worth paying for just the miniature.

WUWU wrote:
I've heard this same criticism a lot in this thread and it's never really been substantiated.

FFG didn't release the last three monsters of their Arkham Horror miniatures line.

The 54mm Mutant Chronicles didn't get past the first set.

FFG also regularly replaces their boardgames (Runebound, Descent, Mansions of Madness, Arkham Horror Drakon) with later revisions being incompatible with earlier ones.

AFAIK, FFG was the US distributor for Dust, Confrontation, and AF-43 (?), and stopped distributing these line, sending product to their holiday clearance sales.

FFG has also stopped putting out games under its Silver Line titles and ended its Call of Cthulhu LCG (which had quite a few releases).

It doesn't make any difference to me if you or anyone else does or does not pick up the RuneWars Miniatures game. But I think it's reasonable to expect that, if a game line doesn't sell as well as other game lines a company has, it will no longer be supported by the company.

ced1106 wrote:

WUWU wrote:
I've heard this same criticism a lot in this thread and it's never really been substantiated.

FFG didn't release the last three monsters of their Arkham Horror miniatures line.

The 54mm Mutant Chronicles didn't get past the first set.

FFG also regularly replaces their boardgames (Runebound, Descent, Mansions of Madness, Arkham Horror Drakon) with later revisions being incompatible with earlier ones.

AFAIK, FFG was the US distributor for Dust, Confrontation, and AF-43 (?), and stopped distributing these line, sending product to their holiday clearance sales.

FFG has also stopped putting out games under its Silver Line titles and ended its Call of Cthulhu LCG (which had quite a few releases).

It doesn't make any difference to me if you or anyone else does or does not pick up the RuneWars Miniatures game. But I think it's reasonable to expect that, if a game line doesn't sell as well as other game lines a company has, it will no longer be supported by the company.

48 Investigators and four waves of monsters for the Arkham Horror miniature line. So over 120 different miniatures is pulling the plug too soon?

I know for a fact that Mansions of Madness and Descent 2nd edition both have conversion kits for 1st edition product, so you point is not accurate. They also just announced a new Runebound expansion a few days ago. Descent has a million expansions, so again, I'm not really seeing how this proves your point.

FFG did end Call of Cthulhu LCG. After 8 years and a crap ton of expansions.

The Silver Line titles are almost entirely light weight board games so what would you expect them to do?

Basically, if FFG was strictly the distributor of game, and had nothing to do with development of the product then yes, maybe you should be worried about it's shelf life ending too soon. But that's not the case with Runewars TMG. I'd bet they easily have a years worth of expansions in the pipe already, if not two years worth.

A few things.

1- As for FFG discontinuing things. Yes, it happens. It's a business. If it doesn't sell, it gets dropped. Interestingly BL2 hasn't been announced as discontinued. It just hasn't seen a release in a good while.

2-As for FFG not doing their own thing with Runewars, that's hogwash. They didn't invent the hidden dials system, but at this point it's pretty much one of their flagship mechanics. Not only that, but they doubled down on the system and the result is a fantasy game completely unlike anything else out there. Further, they're locating the game in their own created universe. Pretty much sounds like the definition of doing one's own thing.

3-Regarding Terrinoth. Yep, it's got some derrivative elements and isn't very deeply developed. Still, it's pretty clear that it's not a copy of any (the Skorne argument doesn't stand up to a timeline) particular gaming universe.

4-Concerning "Opportunistic release schedule". I don't buy it, but even if it were true, how is that even a problem? If a game is to succeed (which I assume is the hope) shouldn't it be released at a time that takes advantage of a company's strengths and competitor's weakness?

Really though, I just come back to the game. Yes, it's entirely valid to look at FFG's history with games, but they at least last longer and are usually better designed and playtested than the dozens of 1-and-done miniature games that come out each year and for the time that they do last, it's usually possible to find a group of gamers who play them.

My encouragement is to at least try the game out if it seems to be gaining any traction in your area. Some will disagree, but it really is an innovative game that plays like no other fantasy wargame.

I think it missed it's window.

Had it been waiting in the wings when AOS first launched to such negative response, I think it would have been a contender, but with the General's Handbook and now with 40k 8th getting a very positive release, I don't see this game lasting.

It's background and minis are really bland/generic and the game becomes so ugly so quickly, with the table festooned with cards and counters and dials and tokens everywhere, combined with the really ugly locking bases.

Swing and a miss for me. Which is a shame, because I have a lot of time for FFG as a company.

WUWU wrote:
48 Investigators and four waves of monsters for the Arkham Horror miniature line. So over 120 different miniatures is pulling the plug too soon?

YES. It's still incomplete. Go ahead and ask this question to BGG'ers for Arkham Horror. Might as well ask if BL customers think the game line is, in their opinion, incomplete.

Look. I don't care about arguing about this. That this argument even exists for FFG and not other companies shows FFG has to prove they won't drop the game line in a few years.

You can type all you want, but you're going to have to convince posters not only here but also on the BGG forums and other customers for FFG's discontinued lines.

I'm not going to stop you or anyone from buying RW. If you and anyone who believes the game will be around in a few years continue to support this game, FFG will continue to put out product, and give others the confidence they need before committing money to the game.

EDIT: And for all you Descent players, there's *this* news. : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1805223/fate-descent-2nd-edition

Was at the flgs today and they are promoting the heck out of it.saw 5 folks play demos and a few of them were talking about buying the game.

ced1106 wrote:

WUWU wrote:
48 Investigators and four waves of monsters for the Arkham Horror miniature line. So over 120 different miniatures is pulling the plug too soon?

YES. It's still incomplete. Go ahead and ask this question to BGG'ers for Arkham Horror. Might as well ask if BL customers think the game line is, in their opinion, incomplete.

Look. I don't care about arguing about this. That this argument even exists for FFG and not other companies shows FFG has to prove they won't drop the game line in a few years.

You can type all you want, but you're going to have to convince posters not only here but also on the BGG forums and other customers for FFG's discontinued lines.

I'm not going to stop you or anyone from buying RW. If you and anyone who believes the game will be around in a few years continue to support this game, FFG will continue to put out product, and give others the confidence they need before committing money to the game.

EDIT: And for all you Descent players, there's *this* news. : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1805223/fate-descent-2nd-edition

You obviously care because you are making up an argument where it doesn't exist. What you said above was not accurate.

Other companies don't do what you accuse FFG of, really? GW? Mordheim, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Hero Quest, Epic, Space Hulk, WHFB, and on and on

Go ahead and support RuneWars Miniatures, then.

We've come to separate conclusions based on FFG's history with its products. If you want to buy RuneWars Miniatures and find out they drop the game line before it's "complete", it won't matter to me. If I wait until RuneWars is "complete" and has local community support, I can always pick it up later.

My own miniatures skirmish wargame of choice is Song of Blades and Heroes, in part because they have a dungeon variant, but also because the game company is dedicated to supporting the product, and they do not require proprietary miniatures.