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I am ecstatic that they decided to keep the Rend values pretty constrained. Loving the weapon profiles. Likely that most AP 5 and 6 weapons will have 0 Rend. Very good to know.

Oh man, is 'Bolter vs flak armour' the new 'Lasgun vs Land Raider? Please no. Please?

Backfire wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
but it only ever took that 1 shot to kill that 1 dread. that one lucky shot that could ruin an entire game. replace dread with land raider.

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

In our last team game, our opponent had Land Raider Crusader filled up with Wolf Guard. On our first turn, we directed 4 Lascannons and 1 Battlecannon on it. Last shot was from my own Land Raider, I threw two sixed and blew his LRC up.

He lost 250 points just like that. Game over? No, he recovered, changed his tactics and won. My own Land Raider survived nearly intact through the game, but it didn't help...

I was more likely to immobilize mine on a damn mole hill or ant hill. Stupid dangerous terrain.

SeanDrake wrote:


The Mass Reactive is the important part as it only exploded after it pierced armour and inmbeded in the target... Messy.

Right, but is it not possible for it to have hit at an odd angle and glanced off? It is not possible that it has to traverse through a piece of terrain and lost of some it's energy before impact?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh man, is 'Bolter vs flak armour' the new 'Lasgun vs Land Raider? Please no. Please?

It is!

Daedalus81 wrote:

So we go from 40 to 46 a 15% increase (maybe 20%), but it is likely we won't be stunned half the time and have no risk of explosion. The only other piece of the picture we need is whether or not dreads have a damage table (small 8-10 wound monsters in AoS do not).

How do we know it can't be stunned or blown up? For all we know, these things could still exist in the damage table.

In fact, I would consider it awfully lame if vehicles can't leave a crater or wreck behind anymore.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

Not dramatically. Hell, not even significantly fewer. At average it was 6.37 in the old edition and it's gonna be 6.17 in the new.
Yeah, 0.2 lascannon shots fewer to kill a dread.
WHAT A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE!

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Under the current paradigm an AV12 dread with 3HP will require an average of 6.75 BS4 AP2 Lascannon shots to kill, rounding up, say 7, with a 1/18 chance of any one shot inflicting an Explodes result.

As T7 W8 Sv3+, against a BS4 -3sv mod D6 dmg Lascannon, the chance to one shot is gone, but your average number of shots to kill drops to 4.93, round to 5.

Guiliman would only take 4 shots to down...just sayin.

All of this is irrelevant because WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEW TO WOUND CHART IS YET!

Backfire wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

So we go from 40 to 46 a 15% increase (maybe 20%), but it is likely we won't be stunned half the time and have no risk of explosion. The only other piece of the picture we need is whether or not dreads have a damage table (small 8-10 wound monsters in AoS do not).

How do we know it can't be stunned or blown up? For all we know, these things could still exist in the damage table.

In fact, I would consider it awfully lame if vehicles can't leave a crater or wreck behind anymore.

We don't know for sure yet. If anything the tables will be negatives to WS/BS or other factors rather than outright setting a conditional non-permanent status.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I am waiting for melta to get a nerf. back in 2nd melta was second fiddle to las canons. It was -5 to save whereas a las canon was -6 and it inflicted d12 damage whereas the las canon did 2d6 all while having shorter range.

I wouldn't be shocked if melta was assault 1 s8 ap-3 d6 damage, but at half range just did an auto 6 damage.

Or maybe just a reroll to damage within close range. Simple rule that doesn't guarantee anything.

 Vaktathi wrote:

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Under the current paradigm an AV12 dread with 3HP will require an average of 6.75 BS4 AP2 Lascannon shots to kill, rounding up, say 7, with a 1/18 chance of any one shot inflicting an Explodes result.

As T7 W8 Sv3+, against a BS4 -3sv mod D6 dmg Lascannon, the chance to one shot is gone, but your average number of shots to kill drops to 4.93, round to 5.

It is possible though that the Wound table is not the same anymore, so Lascannons wound T7 on 3+. This would make his calculation roughly correct.
We still don't know the whole picture (including how expensive Lascannons will be - is it 4th edition cost or 7th edition cost? How powerful will ACEQ be? and so on) However, it seems obvious that Vehicles are not much, if any, tougher in this edition compared to last. Which fits what they said earlier about things dying quickly.

ERJAK wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

Not dramatically. Hell, not even significantly fewer. At average it was 6.37 in the old edition and it's gonna be 6.17 in the new.
Yeah, 0.2 lascannon shots fewer to kill a dread.
WHAT A DRAMATIC DIFFERENCE!

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Under the current paradigm an AV12 dread with 3HP will require an average of 6.75 BS4 AP2 Lascannon shots to kill, rounding up, say 7, with a 1/18 chance of any one shot inflicting an Explodes result.

As T7 W8 Sv3+, against a BS4 -3sv mod D6 dmg Lascannon, the chance to one shot is gone, but your average number of shots to kill drops to 4.93, round to 5.

Guiliman would only take 4 shots to down...just sayin.

All of this is irrelevant because WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEW TO WOUND CHART IS YET!

calm down there, allcaps really is not required here.

Yes, we dont know what the new to-wound values will look like. However I dont recall any indication that S9 vs T7 will be any different than it is now. That absolutely could change and throw everything iff, but doesnt sound like it is thus far, and my concerns were raised in that light.

 kronk wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
but it only ever took that 1 shot to kill that 1 dread. that one lucky shot that could ruin an entire game. replace dread with land raider.

its not possible for a single shot to kill a dread or landraider so im not really seeing a problem.

In our last team game, our opponent had Land Raider Crusader filled up with Wolf Guard. On our first turn, we directed 4 Lascannons and 1 Battlecannon on it. Last shot was from my own Land Raider, I threw two sixed and blew his LRC up.

He lost 250 points just like that. Game over? No, he recovered, changed his tactics and won. My own Land Raider survived nearly intact through the game, but it didn't help...

I was more likely to immobilize mine on a damn mole hill or ant hill. Stupid dangerous terrain.

HA that was always fun.

Not saying that you cant recover but one lucky shot could completely ruin a tank heavy lists day. even if it was just a weapons destroyed on say a earthshaker. it was effectively the same as killing it.

the new system makes it so tanks dont become useless after taking a few heavy hits. it takes an actual anti tank squad to put it out of commission which is how it should be rather than a bunch of jet bikes flying around shooting an ungodly amount of pellets at thing.s

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


When is the last time you saw an all lascannon dev squad? You know the one that costs 220 points if you want to bother keeping the heavy weapons alive? And you're going to bring 3 of them? That might make it a little hard to fight orks.

It was an example for the sake of illustration. Replace Devastators with Predator Annihilator or several tac combat squads any other similar stand in if you like. The ultimate point was that it is going to require dramatically fewer shots to kill a dread on average than was needed before, and they were already hurting there.

I agree that vehicles need a buff, but so did lascannons because nobody took them - before D weapons were everywhere, it was all S7 spam. That won't work in the new edition at all against dreads.

Here's a comparison of BS4 units. I'm going to assume that autocannons are doing D3 damage with -1 rend in 8th, as that seems highly likely (maybe even only 1 damage) for my comparison:

DREAD VS LASCANNON IN 7TH:
Chance to glance: (2/3)(1/6) = 1/9
Chance to pen but not kill: (2/3)(1/2)(5/6) = 5/18
Chance to insta-kill: (2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/18

Taking insta-kill to be worth 3 HP, and you're left with 5/9 average wounds per shot, for 5.4 average shots per kill.

DREAD VS LASCANNON IN 8TH:
Chance to do damage: (2/3)(5/6)(5/6) = 25/54

With 8 wounds and expected roll of 3.5 on a D6, that gives ~4.94 shots per kill - around a 10% improvement in damage.


DREAD VS AUTOCANNON IN 7TH:
Chance to do 1HP: (2/3)(1/3) = 2/9

Average shots to kill: 13.5

DREAD VS ASSUMED AUTOCANNON IN 8TH:
Chance to do damage: (2/3)(1/2)(1/2) = 1/6

Average shots to kill, assuming 2 wounds average damage: 24.

That means that, assuming I'm roughly accurate, that S7 spam is almost half as effective (well, 55%ish). That's a MASSIVE boon for them. I would guess that this will be similar across the field - vehicles are weaker to AT guns but better vs all-rounder guns. That sounds like way better balance than we've had before. The final balance of the game will be determined on other factors including points costs, but I don't necessarily think slightly buffing lascannons, which nobody took, is bad; nor do I think heavily nerfing S7 autocannon/plasma spam, which everyone had to take, is bad either - in fact, I would argue this makes the game have greater tactical depth. Of course, the real test will be grav guns and meltas, but let's wait and see before drawing large conclusions.


EDIT: For fun, before anyone says the vehicle damage chart wasn't ridiculously broken in 5th, the Dread would take 27 shots from an autocannon and 9(!) lascannon shots if it wasn't in cover. That's why everyone used melta - it was the only thing worth a damn against armour, and made basically all armour values into a joke, needing only ~3.5 shots to kill the same Dread... let's not go back to either that level of anti-armour, or that level of durability.

 Desubot wrote:


the new system makes it so tanks dont become useless after taking a few heavy hits. it takes an actual anti tank squad to put it out of commission which is how it should be rather than a bunch of jet bikes flying around shooting an ungodly amount of pellets at thing.s

This is a nice observation. It will actually take heavy weaponry to effectively bring down heavy tanks and monsters. Will be nice to see some more variation in weaponry, instead of Str 6 spam.

Backfire wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Under the current paradigm an AV12 dread with 3HP will require an average of 6.75 BS4 AP2 Lascannon shots to kill, rounding up, say 7, with a 1/18 chance of any one shot inflicting an Explodes result.

As T7 W8 Sv3+, against a BS4 -3sv mod D6 dmg Lascannon, the chance to one shot is gone, but your average number of shots to kill drops to 4.93, round to 5.

It is possible though that the Wound table is not the same anymore, so Lascannons wound T7 on 3+. This would make his calculation roughly correct.
We still don't know the whole picture (including how expensive Lascannons will be - is it 4th edition cost or 7th edition cost? How powerful will ACEQ be? and so on) However, it seems obvious that Vehicles are not much, if any, tougher in this edition compared to last. Which fits what they said earlier about things dying quickly.

the thing is toughness is also relative to cost, remember a wounds per shot number is useless in a vacuum, without cost you just use all D weapons and be done with it.

Okay so the Dreadnought can only survive 5 shots compared to when it used to survive 7, neat...those number don't mean anything yet, you have to add points before you can compare so right now 7 lascannons are 140pts so thats 20 points per shot so it's 140 pts to kill a dreadnought.

If in nuhammer 5 shots is 100 points the dreadnought got squishier, if it's 196 points it's exactly the same it it's 400pts it got quite a bit tougher.

TL;dr shots per dread doesn't mean anything, points of shot per dread would determine the actual durability.

 Vaktathi wrote:

I think we are using different math. Here's what I posted earlier.

Yup, I messed up and somehow assumed Dread have 10 wounds instead of 8.
My 7-e mathammer includes one-shot chance, that's why it's slightly lower than yours.

When was the last time you actually saw Lascannons regularly fielded? This is a good change if it makes the Lascannon have a role in the game.

My Crimson Fists Lascannon Devastator Squad is probably moving back into my roster with this update. I am loving that they can actually bring big stuff down as intended.

Hmmm, I wonder if a lascannon does d6 wounds.... do you roll to save once agianst the hit and then apply the wounds if you fail, or count the wounds and then roll to save each individually?

trust us when we say we may be entering the age of the flamer as the go-to special weapon of infantry squads the galaxy over – let the galaxy burn!

YAY!!! THE AGE OF THE FLAMER BEGINS!!! TIME TO BURN, HERETICS!!!

 davou wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if a lascannon does d6 wounds.... do you roll to save once agianst the hit and then apply the wounds if you fail, or count the wounds and then roll to save each individually?

IIRC, when wounds were in the rules, you rolled for them after a failed save. Probably would be better if it was the opposite. (roll for nb of wounds and save each of them)

 davou wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if a lascannon does d6 wounds.... do you roll to save once agianst the hit and then apply the wounds if you fail, or count the wounds and then roll to save each individually?

Historically it's been save first, then damage. When otherwise it's usually been poor wording.....

Looking forward to fielding Godhammer Land Raiders. It's been a while.

 davou wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if a lascannon does d6 wounds.... do you roll to save once agianst the hit and then apply the wounds if you fail, or count the wounds and then roll to save each individually?

If they follow AoS (which I would assume is likely), it's Roll to Hit -> Roll to Wound -> Roll to Save -> Apply damage (which if variable, is rolled at this point).

 Insectum7 wrote:
Looking forward to fielding Godhammer Land Raiders. It's been a while.

Actually they're called Phobos.
Godhammer is the patern of a TL lascannon sponson

 davou wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if a lascannon does d6 wounds.... do you roll to save once agianst the hit and then apply the wounds if you fail, or count the wounds and then roll to save each individually?

I would like to see the reverse of AoS's method in action. Roll to hit, roll to wound, for damage, then saves? Or roll to hit, roll for damage, roll to wound for each point of damage, then saves? There's a lot of ways to do it.

Also I'm not against a lascannon frying multiple small targets. Could be the beam goes through multiple targets, or causes an explosion and so on. Just as long as it doesn't work better than a machine gun type weapon at this sort of work then I'm ok with it.

On reflection, I should retract my earlier comments and instead start celebrating the fact that Imperial Guardsmen will get a save against boltguns.

I used to play Guard, and nothing annoyed me more than spending hours assembling and painting squads of Guardsmen, only to have to remove them from the gaming table 30 seconds later when a Space Marine disengaged the safety on his bolter.

Dakka, I'm sorry.

Imperium Codex launch trailer?

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Looking forward to fielding Godhammer Land Raiders. It's been a while.

Actually they're called Phobos.
Godhammer is the patern of a TL lascannon sponson

They'll be even better if twin-linked is double wounds rather than reroll to-hit.

Was there anything in the Q&A video about something similar to war scrolls for 40k coming in the boxes?

ERJAK wrote:


Guiliman would only take 4 shots to down...just sayin.

All of this is irrelevant because WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEW TO WOUND CHART IS YET!

We do have some information:-

Strength and Toughness are still with us, and still use an opposing value principle (so much higher Strength will still wound on 2+, low Strength will wound on a 6+), and these aren’t capped at 10 any more either.

To keep things consistent I would assume it's either doubles or triples will result in 2+/6+ effects. My guess it will be doubles to keep things consistent and matches with what we have currently.