Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azreal13 wrote:
We have confirmation that they're own thing. They can't be both.

They can totally be both.

"Hey guys, here are your reinforcements!"

*3 months later, have a 3 month campaign*

"Hey guys, all the old Marines are dead, but don't worry the new Marines have filled out all their roles now! (i.e. we've released enough new Marine kits to remove the old Marines from the shelves)"

I'm not saying that's definitely what's going to happen, but it didn't pass me by that they gave the line "To the Chapters lost in valiant duty or driven to destruction, we offer rebirth" while showing a picture of a Space Wolf... a Chapter that already has a fully fleshed out line up of models but just recently got brought nearly to annihilation in a campaign.

It may have just been a coinkydink, but it certainly struck me as rather convenient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
By that logic, if a part of the lore says a Space Marine force is being reinforced by elements of the Imperial Guard, that means Space Marines are being replaced by the Imperial Guard and we'll have no more Space Marines, just Imperial Guard.

Ridiculous logic being thrown around here.

Isn't it usually the other way around, Space Marines reinforce the Imperial Guard?

But either way, it's a false equivalency because IG have never as far as I know been labelled as something that "offers rebirth" to Space Marine chapters. Also IG and SM have always existed alongside each other and the setting has historically never advanced, the setting is now advancing.

This is super lame. So much for my Deathwatch ever getting the missing models they needed. Probably have super deathwatch.

All my rpg adventures feel like a let down. Like I wasn't running a game with the best of the best, but just regular joe shmoe marines now. This retroactively feths up my opinion of the rpg and fluff in a bad way.

The only other rumors of stuff that I've see recently are of more primarchs for both sides. So I'm guessing non-eldar xenos are just not getting anything? Okay then. I know there are rumors of xenos stuff from eons ago, but I don't think they were form hastings or a reliable rumormonger. Just the ork buggy thing.

All they got to do to shut me up is say xenos races are getting models sometime this year and I'll be happy. They don't have to elaborate on anything else.

30k Mk 2 incoming. *Sigh* Looks like jumping ship to Sigmar is the wisest course of action still.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Every Marine sale give them funds to make the cooler toys. No one would have predicted GS Cult a few years ago! Let's hope the NuMarines sell like mad so we get Sisters, Squats, Slaaneshi dudes, every mini faction they can throw at us.

This line of thinking assumes that sales of one increases resources available to another line. There is no such direct link, GW selling tons of Space Marines doesn't necessarily mean another line is going to get greater support or anything like that beyond the very indirect result of GW keeping its doors open. That's just really not how these things work, particularly at a publicly traded manufacturing firm like GW.

Of course it does, you must not be living in the same GW world if you think that Space Marines are not the SOLE reason 40k still exists. Without Space Marines there is no 40k (or GW for that matter) so its easier to just suck it up and wait for other models. As others have pointed out there have been a massive amount of non-SM models released in 7th ed.

 Accolade wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This reminds me when people were insisting that Stormcast had replaced generic humans, who would be phased out and become an unimportant sidenote. Turns out the opposite happened with normal humans becoming more important as the fluff went on, but hey nothing quite like whining ceaselessly over change. There is absolutely nothing GW could have done that would not have whole swathes of people saying it was the worst thing ever.

Er, what new human releases have come out for AoS? As far as I've seen, it's Stormcasts that have come to dominate the model releases for that game (minus the appearance of the more zealous units of the old Empire).

It has to do with the fluff in the advancing story, suffice it to say that the Stormcast were set in role of super-elite-badass dudes on the battlefield but incapable of actually building civilization or managing average threats. When a nasty enemy shows up they are there, but they can't be everywhere at once so for the 99 other battles in between they have to rely on regular scrubs to keep the peace. I would expect to see something similar in 40k, where the nu-marines reinforce the regular chapters (who at this point are battered and worn) against the surge of threats from chaos but for every one of those the chapter still needs a dozen regular marines to back them up and the Imperium still needs a billion guardsman to fend off ork attacks. GW isn't going to suddenly make the whole Space Marine line unimportant.

At first... but as new marines sell more and more and outpace regular marines. They are destined to be SOB'ed and IG'ed. No model support and as the molds slowly break they won't replace them.

The space marines doom is at hand from their own allies. If I was a loyalist space marine at this point it's a lot like they are tossing out soldiers like defective old models in my eyes. Especially after hundreds of years of service.

I wouldn't stand for that gak. I would leave and take as many of them with me as possible and start out own small empire with as many as who could come with me and really start thinking about how to survive the inevitable super marines coming to execute the faithful.

This feels like the movie soldier from 1998 where the super soldiers that have served for decades are being put out of service for the new ones.

I'd imagine that will be part of the evolving plot. A schism in the Imperium, deeper than any Warp rift.

Sweet new fluff use for my old 4th edition 13th Company force- they are a force of Space Wolves who refuse to be outmoded by these new replacements, but because they refuse to work with this new Crusade, they are forced to use captured Chaos gear to replace their damaged equipment in their war against Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 Gamgee wrote:
At first... but as new marines sell more and more and outpace regular marines. They are destined to be SOB'ed and IG'ed. No model support and as the molds slowly break they won't replace them.

Molds break? There are model kit molds from the '60s and '70s still pushing out plastic. Somewhere the original molds for the beanies are lying around. Marines pay back their molds quickly so can be replaced with new stuff. Eldar Guardians, apparently not so much.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except it isn't being forced into the setting, the setting is being altered and they're part of that.

"Forced into the setting" as in, were not something that was hinted at in the past, just suddenly appeared out of almost nowhere and have been done in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I can't resist responding to this...this..strange post.

It's as if you have never read a book or watched a TV show or movie ever. Seriously? Your suggesting it is bad form not to telegraph future developments? I, I have no words to rightly epxress how idiotic this is.

W40K is a setting where there is very little technological development, things on a grand scale are mostly unchanging, and there is overall little hope, especially not for the Imperium. That's the way it's been for 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy. This is Deus Ex Machina that's appeared out of nowhere that'll supposedly suddenly save everything, goes against the themes for the past 10,000 years of the Imperium and undermines the core tenants of the setting as a whole.

People keep saying this like the appearance of Nu marines will suddenly end the conflicts of the 40K universe or something. This is moving the story forward to set up new, unresolved future conflicts for the universe.

Seriously is it better if we left it with Abaddon shaking his fist from the Eye of Terror and never having actually launched another crusade? How many more editions of staying on that precipice would people willingly endure before saying, "just get on with it already."

The universe being a setting and not a story is all well and good so long as that setting doesn't grow stale. After the last 10-15 years being relatively the same, I'm all for something new.

I wonder if these new marines will have lower weapon and ballistic skill? The current marines have been fighting for a long time. Some for hundreds of years. These mega marines while physically superior are still technically green as grass.

Also. I wonder if then they will make mega terminators? While I'm behind that I hope they then put out some mega grey Knights (my main army) or I'm going to be rocking the smaller marines for a while

I've always been a strong advocate for the "setting, not a story" argument.

However, 40K is way out in front of every single one of the competitors in terms of how long it's been around, so it is having to cut its own trail at this point.

On balance, I'd probably have preferred them to have dug around a bit in the known setting for material that's only been lightly touched on, but if this is what GW creatives feel they need to do to free themselves up to keep things fresh, I'd rather that than a half arsed attempt to explore a little known corner of the galaxy that nobody at GW was really excited about and ended up being a limp wristed boot on that nobody cared about.

Frankly, as long as the game plays well, I'll be a lot more forgiving of any liberties taken with the fluff.

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
At first... but as new marines sell more and more and outpace regular marines. They are destined to be SOB'ed and IG'ed. No model support and as the molds slowly break they won't replace them.

Molds break? There are model kit molds from the '60s and '70s still pushing out plastic. Somewhere the original molds for the beanies are lying around. Marines pay back their molds quickly so can be replaced with new stuff. Eldar Guardians, apparently not so much.

They do now, but the new super marines are going to be getting the majority of support from here on out if the rumors that backed this release up and were clearly right are any indication. They said it would be very rare for older marines to get anything. Sounds like outdated IG SOB to me who get nothing. The space marines are old news friendo. GW wants them all gone eventually to sell the next generation. Just cannon fodder now really.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I've always been a strong advocate for the "setting, not a story" argument.

However, 40K is way out in front of every single one of the competitors in terms of how long it's been around, so it is having to cut its own trail at this point.

On balance, I'd probably have preferred them to have dug around a bit in the known setting for material that's only been lightly touched on, but if this is what GW creatives feel they need to do to free themselves up to keep things fresh, I'd rather that than a half arsed attempt to explore a little known corner of the galaxy that nobody at GW was really excited about and ended up being a limp wristed boot on that nobody cared about.

Frankly, as long as the game plays well, I'll be a lot more forgiving of any liberties taken with the fluff.

In some ways I would agree with this. The problem is that, without its setting, 40k as a game would have ceased to exist long ago. Nobody gets into 40k because the gameplay is amazing with awesome rules and gripping gameplay. The game, as a ruleset, has always been mediocre at best and often simply awful. People get into it for the IP and deal with the game as a way to have fun with that IP in an interactive way with others. Mucking about in subpar ways with that IP is potentially even more damaging than mucking with the rules in terrible ways.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except it isn't being forced into the setting, the setting is being altered and they're part of that.

"Forced into the setting" as in, were not something that was hinted at in the past, just suddenly appeared out of almost nowhere and have been done in a way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I can't resist responding to this...this..strange post.

It's as if you have never read a book or watched a TV show or movie ever. Seriously? Your suggesting it is bad form not to telegraph future developments? I, I have no words to rightly epxress how idiotic this is.

Wait, whut? "Telegraphing future developments" is the defining quality of a great story - foreshadowing. The best story is one that tells you absolutely everything you need to know to figure out the ending, but still manages to surprise you without making you feel thick for not having done so. Stories that rely on "surprise, motherfether!" twists or "suddenly: Jesus saved everyone" deus ex machina are derided as cheap pulp nonsense. Seriously, take a creative writing course sometime.

Um, what is right? Those are YOUR criteria for story telling maybe, but I myself and many others find foreshadowing annoying if over done. Maybe I have a higher comprehension then some but having every fething plot point "hidden" is obnoxious. A great story does not require foreshadowing for every fething development lol. Another hyperbolic out from space line of reasoning. I mean, a setting with super soldiers in armor and your telling me you are surprised by bigger more super soldiers being released? Bahahahaha... I am sorry but..hahahahahaha

The fact that you sit on a high horse and tell me to "learn to write brah!" is even more hilarious. Appeal to authority much? Holy crap mate!

 Gamgee wrote:
At first... but as new marines sell more and more and outpace regular marines. They are destined to be SOB'ed and IG'ed. No model support and as the molds slowly break they won't replace them.

The space marines doom is at hand from their own allies. If I was a loyalist space marine at this point it's a lot like they are tossing out soldiers like defective old models in my eyes. Especially after hundreds of years of service.

I wouldn't stand for that gak. I would leave and take as many of them with me as possible and start out own small empire with as many as who could come with me and really start thinking about how to survive the inevitable super marines coming to execute the faithful.

This feels like the movie soldier from 1998 where the super soldiers that have served for decades are being put out of service for the new ones.

The badab war was started for less. Heck that is the motivation for the fallen... I can't see all space marine chapters being OK with this.

At first... but as new marines sell more and more and outpace regular marines. They are destined to be SOB'ed and IG'ed. No model support and as the molds slowly break they won't replace them.

The space marines doom is at hand from their own allies. If I was a loyalist space marine at this point it's a lot like they are tossing out soldiers like defective old models in my eyes. Especially after hundreds of years of service.

I wouldn't stand for that gak. I would leave and take as many of them with me as possible and start out own small empire with as many as who could come with me and really start thinking about how to survive the inevitable super marines coming to execute the faithful.

This feels like the movie soldier from 1998 where the super soldiers that have served for decades are being put out of service for the new ones.

Soldier, starring Kurt Russell excellent movie. I hope this backfires just as hard.

Granny think they can't possibly sell more marine models, so they decide they will make bigger marines and make them BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER in universe.

If that is'nt the definition of Derp, I don't know what is...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a serious note, how is that even going to look right on the table top?

That would be like me buying Peter Pig 15mm ACW figures, and figuring I can mix Blue Moon 18mm ACW on the same stand.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I've always been a strong advocate for the "setting, not a story" argument.

However, 40K is way out in front of every single one of the competitors in terms of how long it's been around, so it is having to cut its own trail at this point.

On balance, I'd probably have preferred them to have dug around a bit in the known setting for material that's only been lightly touched on, but if this is what GW creatives feel they need to do to free themselves up to keep things fresh, I'd rather that than a half arsed attempt to explore a little known corner of the galaxy that nobody at GW was really excited about and ended up being a limp wristed boot on that nobody cared about.

Frankly, as long as the game plays well, I'll be a lot more forgiving of any liberties taken with the fluff.

In some ways I would agree with this. The problem is that, without its setting, 40k as a game would have ceased to exist long ago. Nobody gets into 40k because the gameplay is amazing with awesome rules and gripping gameplay. The game, as a ruleset, has always been mediocre at best and often simply awful. People get into it for the IP and deal with the game as a way to have fun with that IP in an interactive way with others. Mucking about in subpar ways with that IP is potentially even more damaging than mucking with the rules in terrible ways.

Mediocre or not, for probably 20 years it was the only game in town. The network effect has been its biggest asset, and despite looking a little rocky for a few years, probably still is. This compensates for a lot of terrible.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about what people are attracted to in the lore, I'd wager more than a few are drawn in by the primary colored, power armoured super humans kicking ass and taking names. In that regard, little looks set to change.

I think new marines is a good idea. The static fluff is not compatible with a company that needs to make new products. Previously we have had new stcs found under sofa cushions or retcons. Did all the Razorbacks with a marine operating the gun get mysteriously destroyed?
By moving the timeline forward to accommodate these guys it at least makes the appearance of these guys more believable, unlike the centurions.
If you don't like the new marines or new fluff, just set your games before they turned up.
There are hundreds of years of history in a massive universe to play with.
There is a new Gaunts ghost novel coming this year with more on the way. The characters in that series are all long dead at the time of the gathering storm.
Even official game material will come that is set before this time. The deathwatch overkill game being a good example of this.
I will wait to see the final pics of the new models, but as someone who is not a massive fan of the marine aesthetic my only complaint is that the design is not different enough. I would have preferred more of the Adeptus Mechanicus style to show in the models.

 bound for glory wrote:

On a serious note, how is that even going to look right on the table top?

That would be like me buying Peter Pig 15mm ACW figures, and figuring I can mix Blue Moon 18mm ACW on the same stand.

It'll look no better or worse than gangly RTB-01 marines next to chunky 2nd ed monopose starter plastics next to 1998 tactical marines.... you know... stuff that already happens and has happened for decades. Marines have never been one particular shape and size until the 3rd-7th edition era and even at the tail end of that were tweaked recently with the Deathwatch box. People will get over it.

 John Prins wrote:
Somebody at GW had the brass to actually pull the trigger on it.

I want to find this person an tickle them for 1.2 seconds.
(That's the equivalent of killing him, but for a silly miniature game that nobody should ever take too seriously, let alone issue death threat about. In other words, it shows how incredibly outraged at them I am. I may even tickle them for 1.3 seconds.)

 Starfarer wrote:
How many more editions of staying on that precipice would people willingly endure before saying, "just get on with it already."

An unbound number. Like, ok, we are at edition 1290810980921 of 40k, the universe is still staying on that precipice, I'm okay with this. On the other hand we would know all the details of the Age of Apostasy and stuff. But no, rather bring the derpmarines.

Ok, ok, ok. Deep breath. Bigger marines, that's dumb. I think that's really dumb, and a tasteless move by gw.

Unless...

They can now be female, too.

In which case I will give them props. Because that would be a clever way to do it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They can now be female, too.

This is the part where I duck out and just hide for the inevitable insanity.

I'd completely forgive them for Nu marines if that were the case.

Female marines are even more Derp.

Some of the largest and broadest themes within the Imperium of the WH40k universe is that of "pride goes before the fall" and "the best laid plans o' mice an' men go oft awry."

Though Guilliman's intentions may be good, I wouldn't put it past GW to throw a "these new and improved space marines are showing some oddities in their mental and physical stability..." in ways that only someone 10000+ years old and who lived through Terra might recognize to be associated with the likes of Thunder Warriors.

The NuMarines could easily end up in the middle ground between Thunder Warriors, Custodes, and Space Marines - more difficult to produce than Space Marines, but not as much as Custodes; more powerful than Space Marines, but not as much as Custodes and Thunder Warriors; more stable than Thunder Warriors, but less stable than Space Marines and Custodes.

As a side note, the integration of NuMarines into the Space Wolves seems like it would present some serious lore issues (though it really is one of the few ways that Chapter has to return to its former strength).

I can't wait to see the first of these Nu-Marines broken/corrupted/fall to Chaos.

At least this doesn't invalidate the older marks of marine armor in scale or backstory. Its a relief to know that we can still use mk III and IV models for Horus Heresy games. Not that it wasn't always an option...

Leave these oversized things for 40k games.

It all seems pretty obvious to me.

NuMarines are the upscaled replacement models for the current space marine line. New edition, new space marine look. The lore justification is there to ease the fact that armies will look weird with two different scales of models during the transition period to the new kits. No new rules, just different models. Over the next few years there will be a NuMarine Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, etc kit to replace the current ones. The current line of space marines will be a quaint relic of the past - much like tiny 2nd ed Terminators with their bumblebee stripe powerfists and fire hose nozzle heavy flamers - justified in lore as the old space marines who haven't died off yet. Eventually NuMarines will just be regular marines, both in the lore and in the store and the current line will be ebay fodder.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Some of the largest and broadest themes within the Imperium of the WH40k universe is that of "pride goes before the fall" and "the best laid plans o' mice an' men go oft awry."

Though Guilliman's intentions may be good, I wouldn't put it past GW to throw a "these new and improved space marines are showing some oddities in their mental and physical stability..." in ways that only someone 10000+ years old and who lived through Terra might recognize to be associated with the likes of Thunder Warriors.

The NuMarines could easily end up in the middle ground between Thunder Warriors, Custodes, and Space Marines - more difficult to produce than Space Marines, but not as much as Custodes; more powerful than Space Marines, but not as much as Custodes and Thunder Warriors; more stable than Thunder Warriors, but less stable than Space Marines and Custodes.

As a side note, the integration of NuMarines into the Space Wolves seems like it would present some serious lore issues (though it really is one of the few ways that Chapter has to return to its former strength).

Sure they could go that route but it wouldn't make much sense.

If the Imperium has the resources to send Nu-marines to reinforce the ranks of the beleaguered and out numbered Astartes that means that Nu-marines are logistically easier to produce than Astartes. There would never be a reason to use Astartes ever again, just let them slowly be phased out because they are obviously too difficult to make.

Its like the movie Soldier.

Furthermore, unless the starter plaguemarines are as big as nu-marines then chaos players can be secure in knowing that they will be playing littler angry baddie marines of the setting.