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 Marmatag wrote:

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

Wow I really hope you're wrong. This would be terrible.

You should have the opportunity to save all the wounds.

Why would you want to save on the wounds? I mean if a weapon negates your saves then you wouldn't get those saves.

If the game is purported to be about a smoother and faster playing experience, then why would you take saves on the number of wounds?

For example a Fire Dragon squad, lands 4 out of 5 hits. If you're in cover you get 4 cover saves instead of 4D6 (maybe 15) cover saves? If your not in cover 4 models will die because Melta will have at least a -4 to armor saves.

You see how crazy that becomes?

 godardc wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

What's wrong with the rules ?

Low AP values, flamers that can only hit a guy at worst (2D3 or 3D2 would have been a lot better)

I'm a little worried for Guilliman... hoping there's a "only take one wound" or "halve wounds taken" or "hide in a squad" or "roll an extra save" proviso still for big guys

Otherwise S9 -3 lascannon hits BigRG... his 2+ is a 5+ and then fails taking 3.5 wounds on average... seems like he'd die fast... those 9 wounds don't seem so great

4 SM devastators firing for 2 turns or 8 firing in the same turn (hardly a vast thing to come up with) = 8 shots, 5.3 hits, 4.41 saves needed, 3.67 failed saves for an average of 12.86 wounds... so if he's not able to mitigate damage or hide in another unit or reroll (and I'm assuming we can do that with him) those 9 wounds could fade fast... of course a reroll or a FNP or allocate to squad member could make him and similar profiles into true monsters... any news on independent characters or sacrificial meat shields yet?

It's GW. They're not going to put that much thought into it. D6 flamer hits is acceptable, which is all they are going for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm a little worried for Guilliman... hoping there's a "only take one wound" or "halve wounds taken" or "hide in a squad" or "roll an extra save" proviso still for big guys

Otherwise S9 -3 lascannon hits BigRG... his 2+ is a 5+ and then fails taking 3.5 wounds on average... seems like he'd die fast... those 9 wounds don't seem so great

4 SM devastators firing for 2 turns or 8 firing in the same turn (hardly a vast thing to come up with) = 8 shots, 5.3 hits, 4.41 saves needed, 3.67 failed saves for an average of 12.86 wounds... so if he's not able to mitigate damage or hide in another unit or reroll (and I'm assuming we can do that with him) those 9 wounds could fade fast... of course a reroll or a FNP or allocate to squad member could make him and similar profiles into true monsters... any news on independent characters or sacrificial meat shields yet?

Lascannons should kill things really dead like they did in 2nd. He should die fast to direct hits from anti-tank guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

What's wrong with the rules ?

Low AP values, flamers that can only hit a guy at worst (2D3 or 3D2 would have been a lot better)

AP values need to be low or you get 2nd ed. Feth that. -3 save shuriken cannons?

Mhmm, in all fairness multi wound on hits is pretty cool, I'll miss instant death, but if it means I can finally blast those silly people walking towards my artillery with said artillery, I'll have a small measure of comfort.

Removal of templates reminds me of Cityfight, which had a lot of things going for it. IMO templates are fun, but just rolling for it is so much faster. Thumbs up.

As for Save Modifiers, it's all in the implementation of them along with terrain rules, unit stats, etc. It can be great or it can be mush.

Hey maybe the baleflamer won't be an auto take on helldrakes now. I'm down for some variety.

Flamer templates were fun, but it was super binary. Either you did nothing all game or you wiped out over half their unit. I'm cautiously optimistic how they will play out now.

Martel732 wrote:
Go ahead. Shoot my T7 dread with 3+ armor with your 0 AP boltguns. The rest of my list thanks you, especially the DC. This is the same crazy logic that implies that in their current incarnation, MCs are somehow vulnerable to small arms. They aren't.

I know I've been one of the folks arguing that small arms were of some use against MCs before, but yes, absolutely, this, to the max.

Dreads may die to bolters once in a blue moon, but that won't be the usual trick. Nah, it'll be a beat-up Dread, down to its last wound, finally getting brought down by a full squad of Chaos Marines double-tapping - when most of the real damage was done in melee by a Helbrute or in shooting by a Havoc squad with multimeltas.

Martel732 wrote:
Go ahead. Shoot my T7 dread with 3+ armor with your 0 AP boltguns. The rest of my list thanks you, especially the DC. This is the same crazy logic that implies that in their current incarnation, MCs are somehow vulnerable to small arms. They aren't.

Martel is being positive about new rules, this is a red letter day indeed

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm a little worried for Guilliman... hoping there's a "only take one wound" or "halve wounds taken" or "hide in a squad" or "roll an extra save" proviso still for big guys

Otherwise S9 -3 lascannon hits BigRG... his 2+ is a 5+ and then fails taking 3.5 wounds on average... seems like he'd die fast... those 9 wounds don't seem so great

4 SM devastators firing for 2 turns or 8 firing in the same turn (hardly a vast thing to come up with) = 8 shots, 5.3 hits, 4.41 saves needed, 3.67 failed saves for an average of 12.86 wounds... so if he's not able to mitigate damage or hide in another unit or reroll (and I'm assuming we can do that with him) those 9 wounds could fade fast... of course a reroll or a FNP or allocate to squad member could make him and similar profiles into true monsters... any news on independent characters or sacrificial meat shields yet?

Undoubtedly units that were once GC or LOW or SHV will have special rules like - Regardless of enemy WS or special rules, this model can only be hit on 4+ or 5+

Also the game is supposed to have a keyword system. You could see something like - This model cannot be wounded by Infantry in CC.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mhmm, in all fairness multi wound on hits is pretty cool, I'll miss instant death, but if it means I can finally blast those silly people walking towards my artillery with said artillery, I'll have a small measure of comfort.

Instant death is a crap mechanic, because MCs are basically immune. A demolisher cannon doing one wound to an MC is insane. And the mechanic upon which all monster mash lists are built: unreasonable durability for the points.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mhmm, in all fairness multi wound on hits is pretty cool, I'll miss instant death, but if it means I can finally blast those silly people walking towards my artillery with said artillery, I'll have a small measure of comfort.

I'm really happy with mutli wounds too, it was really lacking in 7th ed.
I agree with low ap and the stupid flamer burning only 1 guy, but I think those are just details and, overall, it will be better.

@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Go ahead. Shoot my T7 dread with 3+ armor with your 0 AP boltguns. The rest of my list thanks you, especially the DC. This is the same crazy logic that implies that in their current incarnation, MCs are somehow vulnerable to small arms. They aren't.

Martel is being positive about new rules, this is a red letter day indeed

Assuming these are real, it looks like they are keeping the AP in check. But watch Eldar be full of -3 to -8 AP weapons. LOLZ we are Eldar, your armorz means nothing to us!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

I completely disagree. No vehicle damage table, or at least it shares one with MCs. No explodes results, either. That's a huge win. At least now we can have a badly damaged dreadnought instead of it being alive or hull pointed out.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

I mean you're wounding it on 6s, you'd need a good amount of boltguns.

Those are all basically wasted shots, because you could have been wounding other units on 3s or 4s. The same logic applies now; there's no reason to shoot small arms are Riptides when you can shoot them at the pathfinders. It doesn't matter that you can, *in theory*, hurt the riptide.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

In former editions you could boltgun a Dread in the back and kill it.

I can't say they're in a worse position now since I haven't seen all the rules, but on the outset it looks like it would take at least two successful Lascannon shots to kill it, which seems fine.

I'm not worried about flamers at all, I'm going to shove them in my list and burn gak down. A land speeder with two HF is a 55 point model with the chance to cause up to 12 automatic hits. Edit: on ONE model!

Very happy with the design choices for these weapons. If Bolters had a Rend value, there would be far too many weapons in the game that ignored armor and made armor saves really ineffective. Also like that Lascannons might actually have a role vs. tanks and monsters now.

 Grimgold wrote:

Naaris wrote:
Saves will be on Hits.

Flamers do D6 hits each hit does 1 wound.
they roll a 4 and you save against those 4 auto hits.

Lascannon shoots 1 shot, you save that shot no wounds
you don't save that shot and it does d6 wounds.

Any other way is too powerful.

First, you realize due to the commutative law of multiplication, that it is literally the same mathematical outcome. Second holy RNG, "do I take six wounds or none, it's all decided by a single roll", you are thinking of making six saves at once, I'm thinking of failing six saves at the same time. It all washes out at the end but saves vs hits will be much lumpier, and lumpy RNG ruins the player experience.

Not really, it mostly makes things more dramatic. The thing is people keep thinking about it as 'oh but MAH UNITS!' when that's not it. When a D6 damage weapon hits you you naturally assume whatever it hits dies so it's not that big of a deal when it does and it's pretty nifty for you when it doesn't. It's actually the firer who will get more(but not gamebreakingly more) disappointed in the roll.

@Martel732:
If there is a Dread limping around with just a few wounds left, it is sensible to shoot it with your Tactical Squad. Keep in mind that you also have a heavy & special weapon (Melta or Plasma) in your unit. Even your Sgt. could wield a Plasma Pistol or Kombi-Weapon. Those Bolter shots could just score that critical wound you need to get the job done.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

Dreads couldn't possibly be in a worse position. They were made out of tissue paper. You're looking at super high end and super low end but think about S6-S7, which is ACTUALLY why dreads sucked. shooting a scatterlaser at a dreadnought now is exactly like trying to kill a squad of marines with lasguns. And as for special weapons, those 1-shot dreads pretty consistently anyway. If you had a marine squad with a melta you were pretty confident they'd pop a full hp dread so that's a terrible example.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

What's wrong with the rules ?

Low AP values, flamers that can only hit a guy at worst (2D3 or 3D2 would have been a lot better)

No, you're confused between weapons which make DX attacks and weapons which cause DX wounds.

A weapon like a flamer makes a DX number of attacks, which then have to roll to hit(or autohit for a flamer). Weapons which cause DX wounds roll to hit and wound as normal, and you take saves vs each wound caused. However, then if any saves are failed vs this type of weapon, the single unsaved wound multiplies into DX wounds as specified by the weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:

Boltguns will not destroy a Dread on their own and have to rely on heavy weapons like Lascannons. But they can still threaten a badly damaged Dread. That´s a thing that was impossible in former editions of the game. Your opponent will therefore be more cautious in the way he maneuvers the Dread around the battlefield. So, my point still stands: Dreads are in a worse position than before.

Dreads couldn't possibly be in a worse position. They were made out of tissue paper. You're looking at super high end and super low end but think about S6-S7, which is ACTUALLY why dreads sucked. shooting a scatterlaser at a dreadnought now is exactly like trying to kill a squad of marines with lasguns.

That seems like a good change. At least the Dreadnought gets a save vs those attacks. And they're going to need 4s and 5s to wound anyway. So they're less effective than they were previously.

Plus remember that there will be modifiers to your hit rolls now. A guy whose staline says 3+ to hit might often find himself only hitting on 4s most of the time.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:
If there is a Dread limping around with just a few wounds left, it is sensible to shoot it with your Tactical Squad. Keep in mind that you also have a heavy & special weapon (Melta or Plasma) in your unit. Even your Sgt. could wield a Plasma Pistol or Kombi-Weapon. Those Bolter shots could just score that critical wound you need to get the job done.

Maybe. Maybe not. But I'll take my chances there in exchange for not automatically dying vs S 6/7 shooting.

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mhmm, in all fairness multi wound on hits is pretty cool, I'll miss instant death, but if it means I can finally blast those silly people walking towards my artillery with said artillery, I'll have a small measure of comfort.

Instant death is a crap mechanic, because MCs are basically immune. A demolisher cannon doing one wound to an MC is insane. And the mechanic upon which all monster mash lists are built: unreasonable durability for the points.

Yup, Multiple wounds is always better. Now, my lascannon auto does 4 wounds to a T4 model with 4 wounds, but only does one to a T5 model with 4 wounds.

Breng77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Mhmm, in all fairness multi wound on hits is pretty cool, I'll miss instant death, but if it means I can finally blast those silly people walking towards my artillery with said artillery, I'll have a small measure of comfort.

Instant death is a crap mechanic, because MCs are basically immune. A demolisher cannon doing one wound to an MC is insane. And the mechanic upon which all monster mash lists are built: unreasonable durability for the points.

Yup, Multiple wounds is always better. Now, my lascannon auto does 4 wounds to a T4 model with 4 wounds, but only does one to a T5 model with 4 wounds.

The magical T5/T6 barriers basically drove all list building decisions in 7th ed and 6th ed. Why are bikes so much better than jump packs? T5, largely. Why are TWC so much more survivable than Nobz? T5 is a big reason. T5 makes standard heavy weapons anywhere from half as effective to a fourth or worse.

@Martel732:
You are right. Glancing Dreads reliably to Death with mulitshot weapons (S6/S7) is not an option for now. But the weapon profiles of those Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons are not published, yet. We will have to wait and see.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Exactly as terrible as I expected, this is gak

What's wrong with the rules ?

Low AP values, flamers that can only hit a guy at worst (2D3 or 3D2 would have been a lot better)

No, you're confused between weapons which make DX attacks and weapons which cause DX wounds.

A weapon like a flamer makes a DX number of attacks, which then have to roll to hit(or autohit for a flamer). Weapons which cause DX wounds roll to hit and wound as normal, and you take saves vs each wound caused. However, then if any saves are failed vs this type of weapon, the single unsaved wound multiplies into DX wounds as specified by the weapon.

I know how it works, it should make 2D3 attacks or 3D2, it would give out a much better potential and compensates for taking away its AP and template.

The SOB and IG thank you GW

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Martel732:
You are right. Glancing Dreads reliably to Death with mulitshot weapons (S6/S7) is not an option for now. But the weapon profiles of those Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons are not published, yet. We will have to wait and see.

With any luck, scatterlasers get an AP of +1, as they deserve.