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ERJAK wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

Wait, what? Summoning is gone?

I don't think we can specifically say that summoning is gone as a concept, but I'm pretty sure we can say it's gone as a way of bringing free models.

Spoiler:

Is it really summoning if I'm paying the points for the models ?

If I'm paying points for the models how is that different from just briging models from reserves ?

I like how getting free models is Literally The Worst, right up until chaos does it.

You have to pay for models.

Agreed, free models is bad.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What do the Chaos Gods see in Abaddon anyway? He has a 10,000 year long track record of failure after all.

Considering that Horus fought about that long in the BL HH novel fluff just to gain all the Chaos god's favor during the Heresy, I suppose they're playing the long game. When you're immortal, you really don't sweat the small millenial stuff.

Huh?

No spoilers, but reading Vengeful Spirit should make that a little clearer for you, Bulldogging.

 warboss wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think they'd say even if they weren't going to be better but instead worse? That you wasted your money and should use them as office paperweights? It's naive to assume that you're going to get anything but a positive response from a GW employee. If you go back a few years, unbound and formations were the best thing since sliced bread and exactly what the community wanted according to official channels. Obviously, they weren't (and not even in hindsight but rather first glance for some of us). It's nice to get an answer (if only to ridicule it later worst case scenario) but the proof is in the full rules release pudding. Everything until then is assumed to be marketing spin first and foremost. This isn't necessarily directed at you since you flat out said possible good news but rather to the gullible silent readership that fell hook, line, and sinker for marketing spin the last two editions.

Yup that's true.

v0iddrgn wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

Wait, what? Summoning is gone?

I don't think we can specifically say that summoning is gone as a concept, but I'm pretty sure we can say it's gone as a way of bringing free models.

Spoiler:

Is it really summoning if I'm paying the points for the models ?

If I'm paying points for the models how is that different from just briging models from reserves ?

I like how getting free models is Literally The Worst, right up until chaos does it.

You have to pay for models.

Agreed, free models is bad.

In a game that revolves around equal points anything free is terrible game design. This was never even a question until 7th Ed books and formations warped people's perception of quality rules...

 loki old fart wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think they'd say even if they weren't going to be better but instead worse? That you wasted your money and should use them as office paperweights? It's naive to assume that you're going to get anything but a positive response from a GW employee. If you go back a few years, unbound and formations were the best thing since sliced bread and exactly what the community wanted according to official channels. Obviously, they weren't (and not even in hindsight but rather first glance for some of us). It's nice to get an answer (if only to ridicule it later worst case scenario) but the proof is in the full rules release pudding. Everything until then is assumed to be marketing spin first and foremost. This isn't necessarily directed at you since you flat out said possible good news but rather to the gullible silent readership that fell hook, line, and sinker for marketing spin the last two editions.

Yup that's true.

Thing is, there still can't be statements that are outright false.

There are a bunch of ways Pete could have replied without saying they'd be better.

Of course, he says he thinks they'll be better, automatically rendering it an opinion rather than an out and out fact, but nevertheless it would be hugely naive to say something like that when it can be danced around so easily ("there's going to be lots of opportunity to get your Kans on the table" or "we've addressed the concerns that came out of feedback and playtesting" etc.)

I'd say it's fair to say he does feel they're better now, it is just a concern whether that's borne out in a wider ecosystem.

 loki old fart wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think they'd say even if they weren't going to be better but instead worse? That you wasted your money and should use them as office paperweights? It's naive to assume that you're going to get anything but a positive response from a GW employee. If you go back a few years, unbound and formations were the best thing since sliced bread and exactly what the community wanted according to official channels. Obviously, they weren't (and not even in hindsight but rather first glance for some of us). It's nice to get an answer (if only to ridicule it later worst case scenario) but the proof is in the full rules release pudding. Everything until then is assumed to be marketing spin first and foremost. This isn't necessarily directed at you since you flat out said possible good news but rather to the gullible silent readership that fell hook, line, and sinker for marketing spin the last two editions.

Yup that's true.

Rofl, we didn't get responses before. No one said they would be great because no one said anything and because they didn't used to care what the community wanted at all.

Then they killed fantasy and severely muffed the very expensive launch of its replacement, lost a ton of money and had to do a total 180 on their conduct customer side just to bail themselves out. They followed it up with some lucky lightning in a bottle (thank you UK tournament scene) and community initiatives that started getting results and now we're in a place where hating on GW is considered skepticism rather than simple facts.

Warhammer Fantasy Battles died for our sins and as much as the people who are still...verbose about it irratate me I think we all have to agree that we owe pretty much every good thing that's happened in the past two years to Warhammer Fantasy.

Eyjio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Literally only one LoW is unbalanced and that's the Wraithknight. You can make an argument for the Stormsurge but I don't see it as too much a problem.

Sure, if all we were considering was the balance today, I could see that argument; I don't think the Stormsurge is a particular issue even. However, if you go through all of 7e, we first had the hilariously broken T C'tan (first draw a Str D straight line over a unit, then use a Str D hellstorm in case it survived), wwe've had the Eldar Lynx (flying Str D large blast) and then we had issues where Imperial Knights were on every table - the only thing which really came in to stop this was the advent of the new SM codex with grav spam everywhere, which basically invalidated almost every vehicle and MC in the game without invuln saves. They've always been a thorn in the game, just from the fact that they're so polarising in the current rules - either you can kill them, in which case you likely win every game, or you can't and just lose. With potentially degrading performance and "everything can hurt everything", I'm interested to see what they'll be like in 8e.

If you want to make mention of the Escalation supplement that literally nobody used, sure.

Lynx wasn't broken but it was definitely bordering on super good.

ERJAK wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think they'd say even if they weren't going to be better but instead worse? That you wasted your money and should use them as office paperweights? It's naive to assume that you're going to get anything but a positive response from a GW employee. If you go back a few years, unbound and formations were the best thing since sliced bread and exactly what the community wanted according to official channels. Obviously, they weren't (and not even in hindsight but rather first glance for some of us). It's nice to get an answer (if only to ridicule it later worst case scenario) but the proof is in the full rules release pudding. Everything until then is assumed to be marketing spin first and foremost. This isn't necessarily directed at you since you flat out said possible good news but rather to the gullible silent readership that fell hook, line, and sinker for marketing spin the last two editions.

Yup that's true.

Rofl, we didn't get responses before. No one said they would be great because no one said anything and because they didn't used to care what the community wanted at all.

Then they killed fantasy and severely muffed the very expensive launch of its replacement, lost a ton of money and had to do a total 180 on their conduct customer side just to bail themselves out. They followed it up with some lucky lightning in a bottle (thank you UK tournament scene) and community initiatives that started getting results and now we're in a place where hating on GW is considered skepticism rather than simple facts.

Warhammer Fantasy Battles died for our sins and as much as the people who are still...verbose about it irratate me I think we all have to agree that we owe pretty much every good thing that's happened in the past two years to Warhammer Fantasy.

As someone who was thinking of starting fantasy (Tomb Kings). I agree with that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want to make mention of the Escalation supplement that literally nobody used, sure.

Lynx wasn't broken but it was definitely bordering on super good.

If by no-one you mean "multiple of the major tournaments at the start of 7e", then sure, "no-one" used it.

The Lynx was indisputably broken until it's update though, I'll hear no argument on that. From memory, every single top Eldar list which could use FW stuff took it, and they were almost always in the top 2. It was absurdly broken - essentially, every Eldar army had a Str D large blast on a nigh-invincible platform firing every single turn for what, like 420 points?

With the death of formations, I wonder how the Deathwatch will be handled. I thuoght those kill teams where the coolest part of the Codex. Hopefully, they come up with a way to keep them.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What do the Chaos Gods see in Abaddon anyway? He has a 10,000 year long track record of failure after all.

You don't understand Chaos - if they win the war - the game and the fun ends

Constant and unending warfare, strife is a joyful thing for the Chaos gods and those followers that truely understand them.

Indeed, if you have an eternity of time to win, 10k years of fun and games is a great pastime, and the person responsible for that fun needs to be rewarded.

Chris521 wrote:
With the death of formations, I wonder how the Deathwatch will be handled. I thuoght those kill teams where the coolest part of the Codex. Hopefully, they come up with a way to keep them.

They were fun, but they also created a ton of problems. Transports didn't work right with them. Movement modes didn't work right.

Who knows what we can expect from them. Perhaps each Kill Team type will be made into a Troops choice, with the Kill Team members being Veterans as base, but being able to be upgraded into a Vanguard Veteran, Terminator, or Biker. Just a thought.

Eyjio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you want to make mention of the Escalation supplement that literally nobody used, sure.

Lynx wasn't broken but it was definitely bordering on super good.

If by no-one you mean "multiple of the major tournaments at the start of 7e", then sure, "no-one" used it.

The Lynx was indisputably broken until it's update though, I'll hear no argument on that. From memory, every single top Eldar list which could use FW stuff took it, and they were almost always in the top 2. It was absurdly broken - essentially, every Eldar army had a Str D large blast on a nigh-invincible platform firing every single turn for what, like 420 points?

The issue came from everyone buying that landing platform giving them a 4++ from all shooting. Take that out of the equation and I hadn't had issues with them.

Also I know most tournaments didn't because otherwise I'd have seen that Transcendent C'Tan everywhere. I'll definitely agree with you that model was fething stupid.

 warboss wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think they'd say even if they weren't going to be better but instead worse? That you wasted your money and should use them as office paperweights? It's naive to assume that you're going to get anything but a positive response from a GW employee. If you go back a few years, unbound and formations were the best thing since sliced bread and exactly what the community wanted according to official channels. Obviously, they weren't (and not even in hindsight but rather first glance for some of us). It's nice to get an answer (if only to ridicule it later worst case scenario) but the proof is in the full rules release pudding. Everything until then is assumed to be marketing spin first and foremost. This isn't necessarily directed at you since you flat out said possible good news but rather to the gullible silent readership that fell hook, line, and sinker for marketing spin the last two editions.

Honestly, if there weren't things he believed made improvements to walkers, he could easily have ignored me. He get's a lot of questions. That said, I''m cautiously optimistic and yes, I make sure to say POSSIBLE good news, since as an Ork player, I'm never convinced of good things for Orks. So, yeah, I agree with you but with reservations.

We know Dreadnoughts are generally more resiliant now (111 Scatter Laser shots to go down vs 40 it currently takes when they have the benefit of cover), so I can see the idea that walkers in general have gotten better.

If KFF is a -1BS then walkers under the bubble may be hard to hit and thus hurt too.

These Detachments come with a few benefits and restrictions. The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example).

Does this mean that that the Patrol, Battalion, and Brigade Detachments can mix-and-match from Imperium factions? The line in the actual article has the word Imperium link to all Imperium stuff in the store. So you might be able to put use a Space Marines HQ with Imperial Guard Troops and Custodes Elites?

 TheWaspinator wrote:

These Detachments come with a few benefits and restrictions. The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example).

Does this mean that that the Patrol, Battalion, and Brigade Detachments can mix-and-match from Imperium factions? The line in the actual article has the word Imperium link to all Imperium stuff in the store. So you might be able to put use a Space Marines HQ with Imperial Guard Troops and Custodes Elites?

I believe so as it follows the same logic as allowing units from different Order factions to mix in AoS.

That said the balance in this is in not sharing rules thus decreasing synergy between units.

ERJAK wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

Wait, what? Summoning is gone?

I don't think we can specifically say that summoning is gone as a concept, but I'm pretty sure we can say it's gone as a way of bringing free models.

Spoiler:

Is it really summoning if I'm paying the points for the models ?

If I'm paying points for the models how is that different from just briging models from reserves ?

I like how getting free models is Literally The Worst, right up until chaos does it.

You have to pay for models.

I don't know who you were responding to. You quoted me, but your responce doesn't make sense in context to what I said.

I get that "free" models was perceived negatively, and I understand why they may do away with it in 8th.

Since you mentioned Chaos, at least Chaos had to work for it in the Psychic phase, which was never guarenteed. SM and AM could get tons of free points worth of stuff during army building. Necrons could get free scarabs, with minimal risk.

But my original point, which I may not have explained clearly, was is that if you have to:
1.) Pay points for the models
2.) Keep a Pysker alive to summon them
3.) Then succesfully roll a psychic power to summon then.
It's effectively a worse version of reserves.

If what you summon is not fixed when you pay the points, it offers some versatility over standard army building, but it seems at significantly more risk.

That being said, 8th Edition summoning, which I admit has not been spoiled in any detail, seems at this point D.O.A., or at the very least a suboptimal army building choice included to remain fluffy.

It's only a "worse version of reserves" if it doesn't offer any other facility. If it allows units to deploy in a manner or at a time they otherwise wouldn't be allowed, it could still have a place.

In AoS, you also don't have to have purchased the specific models you want to summon. So I can set aside 300 points for summoning, and on-the-fly decide what I want to spend those points on. Vs. purchasing specific models and being stuck with those models in reserve.

It's a side-board you can reactively change and adapt anytime in the game.

Summoning could be cool if it could be brought on as reserves OR via summoning, more chance of getting your dudes on the field.

Summoning in AoS at the beginning was insane without points. Now, with matched play rules, they hit it pretty hard with the nerf-bat and really is not a viable option to competitive gaming.

Maybe they will find a better and middle ground to make him balanced in 40k, but I doubt it. Is very difficult to make it a fun mechanic, not broken or underpowered.

Personally, I think that to make summoning viable, they need to make summoning-specific characters/HQ that summong a new "only summon" type of unit, to give them appropriate point costs.

 Rippy wrote:
Summoning could be cool if it could be brought on as reserves OR via summoning, more chance of getting your dudes on the field.

Maybe it will allow you to manipulate reserves and bring back dead models like Genestealer Cults could.

 Elbows wrote:

Splog wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It just makes sense on the consumer side. There have been (to date) seven major rulebooks or revamps of the game mechanics. We've arbitrarily assigned edition numbers to them.

That's the opposite of arbitrary.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

On an unrelated note to Splog's face, I'm sad to see Cadia still existing. This was the best opening for GW to re-do Guard and move away from the "Cadian Pattern" everything. The Cadia aesthetic is old and tired (never that interesting to begin with). Would have liked to have seen GW launch a new wave, perhaps even some options instead of the same thing. I'll be sad if they re-do Guard and choose to stick with the same thing again for the next 10 years. It doesn't hurt anyone's armies if you ditch Cadia (unless you're in the middle of building one - eBay would have you covered anyway). They can simply be Cadian regiments/battalions/armies off-world at the time and still in service to the Imperium.

Boo. Hiss.

Agreed. IG definitively need a style makeover


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 matphat wrote:
Just got this from Pete...possible good news for Orks?

@GeekJockPete My Kan Wall really wants back on the table! Will we see more effective walkers this time around?

Pete Foley‏
I think they will be a lot better, all walkers should be in #New40k

Lol, it always make me laugh when people get excited because of messages like this. Like they would say that Kans and walkers will be crap this edition

No, but they could not say they think they'll be good.

Based on the dreadnought stats, I have high hopes for walkers of all types being pretty good this edition. Hope that the Killa Kans, Deffdreads, and Morka/Gorkanaut specifically get their much needed boost.

He could have always not responded. But he did.

I am looking forward to running my Dreadnoughts again. I am also looking forward to my Sydonian Dragoons and Onager Dunecrawlers being more durable.

Let's not be naive. Hardly any company would do that either, especially on something as subjective (what is effective?).


They"ll answer any questions the same way. Everything is going to be great

 streetsamurai wrote:
Let's not be naive. Hardly any company would do that either, especially on something as subjective (what is effective?).


They"ll answer any questions the same way. Everything is going to be great

Except he doesn't answer every question that goes to him. I lose questions with each article. Only about 1/5 are answered.

Cadians don't need a style makeover. They're an iconic and well established part of the 40K lore and artwork, and have a huge range of products.

What we need are new releases to cover and/or expand on the other Imperial Guard Regiments, especially ones that don't follow the Cadian pattern of equipment. Updated infantry for Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarns, Mordian Iron Guard, Praetorian Guard.... New kits for command squads, independent characters and heavy team weapon teams. Conversion kits for vehicles.

And maybe even kits for Regiments that have never been represented by GW, like the Harakoni Warhawks, Savlar Chem Dogs, Mordant Acid Dogs and new original Regiments.