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I think you guys are looking for a problem where none exists. The bespoke degradation system is one of the most beloved features of AoS. It's now in 40k because of that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
One thing I don't like about the degradation profiles for all units (and bespoke rules in general) is that we are all going to have to memorize all of them.

How long will it be before we get threads on dakka about "that guy" who conveniently "forgets" to degrade his unit?

Forced to memorize something you can just have the book open to?

Of course that means having book open all the time and flipping through it. Dunno about you but I find books on table to be annoying looking distraction. Plus more book flipping in 8th ed than in 7th ed...Blergh.

Looks like theyll be note cards to me.... not books (whatever those are).

tneva82 wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Also having seen a lot of tanks in person, the ones made to take a hit have fat armour all over, fair enough not the same all over but none of this no armour on back rubbish, but almost all have very little on the top yet in game top hits counted as side hits, so it was never 'realistic' or tactical. It's not like by angling your facing you could bounce another tanks shots. It was just a needless abstraction for scale and setting.

Such as? Guess M1A2 Abrams is not tank made to take a hit then. After all it's easier to knock out that one from side or rear than from front...

There's actually reason why people try to shoot those from side/rear and why tanks generally point forward. Toughest armour lies funnily enough in the front. And there's logical REASON why that's so and not same elsewhere. If Abrams tried to have same armour everywhere it would be frigging heavy and lot slower(assuming it could move to begin with). That or they would have to sacrifice front armour.

And lol at hard to determine shapes...Really? Takes like few microseconds. In corner cases maybe few seconds. Lol.


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ERJAK wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Again, not that big of a deal. It adds less time than chucking templates saves, let alone all the other things they're doing to make the game faster.

That's kind of the point, though... They've stripped out a bunch of stuff to make the game faster, and then chosen to add unneccessary processes elsewhere.

Yes, checking the unit card isn't particularly time-consuming as a one-off. That doesn't change the fact that not needing to check the unit card is faster.

Yunno what would also be faster? Flat to wound rolls.

How's so? Whether you roll 3+ or 4+ doesn't change the speed.

It takes less than a fraction of a second to know the number you need to roll. No different to looking at number in card.

Might just as well go roll a dice to see who won game if you are so obsessed with speed...

It seems that for some the little calculation that you need to do with a S and T system to determinate the to wound roll is a terribly complex task that requires a lot of time

tneva82 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
One thing I don't like about the degradation profiles for all units (and bespoke rules in general) is that we are all going to have to memorize all of them.

How long will it be before we get threads on dakka about "that guy" who conveniently "forgets" to degrade his unit?

Forced to memorize something you can just have the book open to?

Of course that means having book open all the time and flipping through it. Dunno about you but I find books on table to be annoying looking distraction. Plus more book flipping in 8th ed than in 7th ed...Blergh.

There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Agreed. And you can load up all your opponent's warscrolls into your app too to make sure you understand how everything works.

How good are those new Death Guard looking....

 Mymearan wrote:
I think you guys are looking for a problem where none exists. The bespoke degradation system is one of the most beloved features of AoS. It's now in 40k because of that.

I like it, but I'd like it even better if Wounds were standardized at 1/2/3/6/12 rather than the varying Wounds in AoS.

 doktor_g wrote:
Looks like theyll be note cards to me.... not books (whatever those are).

Still extra clutter I didn't need before. Not nice.


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 Mymearan wrote:
There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Ah right like more phone flipping(which is btw more annoying than book).

So from virtually zero book reading to lots of app reading. Yeah that's obviously improvement...NOT!

The reason there can't be, and shouldn't be universal degradation charts is due to how some units perform when compared to others, and also due to how players choose to outfit some units.

Why have a chart for walkers, when some walkers are shooty, some are CC and some do both? You will hurt one and not dent another.

Also, a universal chart to effect tyrannies. Yeah, that's cool, totally reduce their MC's CC ability across the board, Flyrants will really care about that.

tneva82 wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Looks like theyll be note cards to me.... not books (whatever those are).

Still extra clutter I didn't need before. Not nice.


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 Mymearan wrote:
There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Ah right like more phone flipping(which is btw more annoying than book).

So from virtually zero book reading to lots of app reading. Yeah that's obviously improvement...NOT!

I'll just rephrase myself to avoid more semantic arguments: AoS has a lot less to look up and a lot less places to do so. And if you want physical warscrolls just buy the physical codex. So if you have the memory capacity to play 7th ed 40k with "virtually zero" book reading, then you will have actually zero book reading in 8th.

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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
I think you guys are looking for a problem where none exists. The bespoke degradation system is one of the most beloved features of AoS. It's now in 40k because of that.

I like it, but I'd like it even better if Wounds were standardized at 1/2/3/6/12 rather than the varying Wounds in AoS.

Yeah I'd be fine with that!

My phone can't keep a charge more than an hour if i'm constantly poking at it so I hope they do this AoS style so I can print a stack to keep off to the side. I can't stand using digitial stuff during a physical game. I never needed it with X wing and don't want to be bothered with it now. If I wanted to do things on a phone or computer i'd play video games instead. IMO the point of tabletop gaming is to have the physical components.

I don't mind flipping through a codex, if it's organized properly. I like having all the rules at the back, so I don't have to flip through fluff to get any important details.

tneva82 wrote:

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 Mymearan wrote:
There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Ah right like more phone flipping(which is btw more annoying than book).

So from virtually zero book reading to lots of app reading. Yeah that's obviously improvement...NOT!

If you're really capable of playing Warhammer 40k: My Big Fat Geek Edition without cracking a book during the game than I doubt you'll have much trouble memorizing 8th's simpler rules.

Crimson Devil wrote:

If you're really capable of playing Warhammer 40k: My Big Fat Geek Edition without cracking a book during the game than I doubt you'll have much trouble memorizing 8th's simpler rules.

The simpler system where each unit uses unique special rules rather than having standardised universal rules? Yeah, that'll be no problem to memorise...

 insaniak wrote:

Crimson Devil wrote:

If you're really capable of playing Warhammer 40k: My Big Fat Geek Edition without cracking a book during the game than I doubt you'll have much trouble memorizing 8th's simpler rules.

The simpler system where each unit uses unique special rules rather than having standardised universal rules? Yeah, that'll be no problem to memorise...

If AoS is anything to go by, then no, it won't, and will require both less memorization and less bookflipping. Again, from someone who has played both for several years.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The reason there can't be, and shouldn't be universal degradation charts is due to how some units perform when compared to others, and also due to how players choose to outfit some units.

Why have a chart for walkers, when some walkers are shooty, some are CC and some do both? You will hurt one and not dent another.

Also, a universal chart to effect tyrannies. Yeah, that's cool, totally reduce their MC's CC ability across the board, Flyrants will really care about that.

That's of course something that can be reflected in points...I mean imagine such a novel concept that better units cost more.


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 Crimson Devil wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

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 Mymearan wrote:
There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Ah right like more phone flipping(which is btw more annoying than book).

So from virtually zero book reading to lots of app reading. Yeah that's obviously improvement...NOT!

If you're really capable of playing Warhammer 40k: My Big Fat Geek Edition without cracking a book during the game than I doubt you'll have much trouble memorizing 8th's simpler rules.

Difference is 7th ed(or rather 2nd ed that I mostly play except for HH) things are shared much more than age of bespoken.

 insaniak wrote:

Crimson Devil wrote:

If you're really capable of playing Warhammer 40k: My Big Fat Geek Edition without cracking a book during the game than I doubt you'll have much trouble memorizing 8th's simpler rules.

The simpler system where each unit uses unique special rules rather than having standardised universal rules? Yeah, that'll be no problem to memorise...

Except it doesn't work now. Each codex presently and most of the units therein have either bespoke rules at present or contradict/supersede the main rule book.

Example: infantry moves 6, and runs d6. Fleet allows rerolls then Hormagaunts, banshees and skitarii all have different named rules with different circumstances that all break those core rules to alter movement values.

Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

So apart from app being more annoying to read than book(maybe I'm getting old but phone screen is tad too small. Plus battery...How many gaming tables generally have power socket right next to it? I can forget going to tournament if I need app to play as the phone WILL run out of battery) there's also that I go from not having to check books for rules to having to flip app on that small phone screen. Not exactly an improvement...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

Basically this. Couldn't exalt this more.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

So apart from app being more annoying to read than book(maybe I'm getting old but phone screen is tad too small. Plus battery...How many gaming tables generally have power socket right next to it? I can forget going to tournament if I need app to play as the phone WILL run out of battery) there's also that I go from not having to check books for rules to having to flip app on that small phone screen. Not exactly an improvement...

So your phone being old and decrepit is now GW's failing? If so, stick to the books. Easy peasy, no different to now. And if your screen is too small, why not invest in a cheap tablet? I've got an iPad, which admittedly is a bit excessive cost wise, but I got it through work. Any Android based tablet will do exactly the same for you.

Now, I was saying about people desperately looking for something, anything to complain about?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

Apps are fine for checking stuff between games. They are beyond irritating at the table.

The fact is, some players are happy to spend the whole game flicking through rules. Some learn the rules for the one army they use all the time and trust their opponent to have the rest. And some prefer to know all the rules so that they know what to expect at the table, and so there's less book flicking. Or app scrolling.

Two of those approaches are harder when a game uses less standardised rules.

But, sure, let's just dismiss others' opinions as complaining for the sake of it...

 Mymearan wrote:
I think you guys are looking for a problem where none exists. The bespoke degradation system is one of the most beloved features of AoS. It's now in 40k because of that.

It's not so much that it's a problem, it's that it could be better.

A single rule that covers every unit that would be subject to it is far better than every unit subject to degradation having their own unique table.

Why would an app be more irritating than a book?

The fact is, some players are happy to spend the whole game flicking through rules. Some learn the rules for the one army they use all the time and trust their opponent to have the rest. And some prefer to know all the rules so that they know what to expect at the table, and so there's less book flicking. Or app scrolling.

Two of those approaches are harder when a game uses less standardised rules.

That might have been true in any other game. In 40k, it's not. That's because 7th had

1) A truckload of "standardized rules" spread across different sections of the rule book, making bookflipping a huge timesink.

2) A truckload of bespoke rules for most units, some of them written next to the unit, some of them in other sections of the codex

3) Formations that add even more special rules, and even more books you have to flip through

So while the 8th edition approach might require more memorizing or looking up stuff than, say, Bolt Action, it's infinitely more convenient and less time-consuming than 7th edition.



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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
I think you guys are looking for a problem where none exists. The bespoke degradation system is one of the most beloved features of AoS. It's now in 40k because of that.

It's not so much that it's a problem, it's that it could be better.

A single rule that covers every unit that would be subject to it is far better than every unit subject to degradation having their own unique table.

When it comes to some rules, like say +1 to hit, I agree that USRs would work fine, as long as they were also written out on the scrolls. When it comes to degradation, I strongly disagree based on my experience with AoS. The small amount of time it takes to look at the table, when I already have all the warscrolls in front of me in the app (or in the physcial codex if you prefer), is very much worth it thanks to the amount of flavour it adds to each unit. Some units lose attacks on certain weapons (most big monsters have 3-4 weapons), some lose movement, some lose entire abilities, some lose spell effectiveness, and some (like Skarbrand) even become more powerful the more damage they take. Having a unified table would either remove all that or necessitate exceptions, which would make things even more complicated.

tneva82 wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Looks like theyll be note cards to me.... not books (whatever those are).

Still extra clutter I didn't need before. Not nice.


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 Mymearan wrote:
There won't be anywhere near the same amount of book flipping in 8th. You'll use the app on your phone or tablet to look up your warscrolls, and that's basically it. You won't have to look in your codex, your campaign book, your supplement, and the main rule book for special rules, unit type rules, or weapon profiles. I play both AoS and 40k and can categorically state that AoS plays smooth as butter in comparison.

Ah right like more phone flipping(which is btw more annoying than book).

So from virtually zero book reading to lots of app reading. Yeah that's obviously improvement...NOT!

Wait, all tabletop games have either book or app reading. Many of them use cards as well so I don't get your problem unless you're new to tabletop wargaming.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who's talking about having to memorise anything?

There's a 40k equivalent to the AoS app coming out, although if memory serves not on initial release.

The AoS app is a godsend. All the unit rules are available through it, so no need to carry books around.

As others have said, people really are just looking for something, anything to complain about.

Apps are fine for checking stuff between games. They are beyond irritating at the table.

The fact is, some players are happy to spend the whole game flicking through rules. Some learn the rules for the one army they use all the time and trust their opponent to have the rest. And some prefer to know all the rules so that they know what to expect at the table, and so there's less book flicking. Or app scrolling.

Two of those approaches are harder when a game uses less standardised rules.

But, sure, let's just dismiss others' opinions as complaining for the sake of it...

The AoS app is brilliantly useful in game, much more so than physical books. It's not like having to flick through a PDF or anything like that. There is no need to spend lots of time flicking/scrolling through stuff. It allows you to have the exact rules for your game in one place for absolutely minimal flicking, like having a custom codex specifically for your game. The AoS app is a solution to mass flicking and scrolling!

I don't know why people assume you need to flip through your phone or a massive rulebook just to play AoS.

At 2000 points, I can run my entire army off of two sheets of paper. Left to the side of the table, it makes it very easy to note down wound counts, or let my opponent pick them up at any time to figure out every rule in my army.

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would an app be more irritating than a book?

Slower, generally.

A USR is fine and dany if it's universal. RIght now juist about every unit has its own bespoke special rules, faction special rules, USR's, etc.

The idea of a USR section and reduced bloat is incompatible with the variety they want to hav in 40K.

Love how people are complaining about 8th being too difficult to learn/remember.
These same people must not realize that they play a game where their space marine has 2-3 rules for their unit type, 2-3 for the color they are painted, 1 for being battlefirged, 2-3 for the formation they are in, 2-3 for the formation that formation is in, and the relics they use, psychic power's each different psyker..