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Twin-Linked Plasma, Lascannon predator just got added to my Templar lists! I should go buy some turrets...

What, the battle cannon looks to me better than ever? It never hit anything before, and when it did, it hit max three guys who had 4+ cover. Or a tank/mc, against what it didn't do any notable damage.

 Galas wrote:
So... now is a bad idea to have a single squad charging the whole enemy gunline alone? Hmmm... whats the problem with that?
If the enemy has 3 shooting units and you charge them at the same time, even if they retreat, they achieve nothing with that. Is only a problem if you have one squad charging 2-3 enemy squads that are supporting each other alone.

You won't be able to charge entire enemy army at once.

And compared to before where either they died or were in combat locked and you safe from shooting this is infinitely preferable to the shooter. As it is that unit would be dead ANYWAY so they wouldn't be shooting anyway so the "cannot shoot" is irrelevant. You have unit safe vs dead. You have to wait for turn but that's infinitely better to having unit totally DEAD except preventing you to shooting enemy as a last "service"(backstabbing more like it). Shooty armies would gladly remove unit from board rather than have it in combat.

That's undeniable boost to shooty army.

Oh please oh please keep Vulkan Twinlinking meltas. .... Flamers and meltas? Anybody wanna buy my salamanders? The price just went up. Mwahahaha

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Battlecannon is might underwhelming,

Please. The Battlecannon is crap. Heavy d6, so you get 3.5 shots, or 1.75 BS3 hits on average. With S8, that's only 1.5 wounds. Against SM, Sv3+ becomes Sv5+. Net result?

An 8E Battlecannon firing into a densely-packed pile of Space Marines kills 1 guy? 2, if you get to roll the d3? Meh.

A 5" Blast would have killed 5 out of 6.

Squads of frag missiles have probably got a lot more saucy at least.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Battlecannon is might underwhelming,

Please. The Battlecannon is crap. Heavy d6, so you get 3.5 shots, or 1.75 BS3 hits on average. With S8, that's only 1.5 wounds. Against SM, Sv3+ becomes Sv5+. Net result?

An 8E Battlecannon firing into a densely-packed pile of Space Marines kills 1 guy? 2, if you get to roll the d3? Meh.

A 5" Blast would have killed 5 out of 6.

...if it hit, and it had a 4/6 chance of scattering, an average of 7(-BS)" away, likely entirely missing the target. You have to compare apples to apples. :-)

I was trying to be diplomatic about it, but yeah, not impressed with the Battlecannon or really what we have seen of the Russ in general thus far.

That said, if its allowed to split fire with all its weapons, and cheaper, it might be a functional unit, or if gobs of other stuff get waaaaayyyyy toned down, but I'm not terribly optimistic about the Russ in 8E thus far.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So... now is a bad idea to have a single squad charging the whole enemy gunline alone? Hmmm... whats the problem with that?
If the enemy has 3 shooting units and you charge them at the same time, even if they retreat, they achieve nothing with that. Is only a problem if you have one squad charging 2-3 enemy squads that are supporting each other alone.

You won't be able to charge entire enemy army at once.

And compared to before where either they died or were in combat locked and you safe from shooting this is infinitely preferable to the shooter. As it is that unit would be dead ANYWAY so they wouldn't be shooting anyway so the "cannot shoot" is irrelevant. You have unit safe vs dead. You have to wait for turn but that's infinitely better to having unit totally DEAD except preventing you to shooting enemy as a last "service"(backstabbing more like it). Shooty armies would gladly remove unit from board rather than have it in combat.

That's undeniable boost to shooty army.

I was talking about charging their 3 units with your 3 meele units, or even 2 and charging 3 at the same time. My point is: Its offer a tactical choice to people in one of the more un-interactive phases of the game: meele, and makes the jumping from combat to combat with a single over powered meele unit unreliable, as it should be.
To me, they are good changes. A buff to shooting yes, but that adds tactical deep to the game. At least thats how I see it.

Yes, but what about the Plasma Flinger Russ! Common, don't fail me GW.

Ok...battlecannon...

It is better than a regular lascannon - we have that much.

It is also better than a TL lascannon when the target has a max of 2 wounds. The battlecannon's max potential (still rolling to hit) is a good bit higher than a TL las.

I would not expect it's points to be very high otherwise...

It should also be considered that the TL las capped at 3 versus the BC max potential is quite a canyon.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I was trying to be diplomatic about it, but yeah, not impressed with the Battlecannon or really what we have seen of the Russ in general thus far.

That said, if its allowed to split fire with all its weapons, and cheaper, it might be a functional unit, or if gobs of other stuff get waaaaayyyyy toned down, but I'm not terribly optimistic about the Russ in 8E thus far.

Looks way scarier from where I'm sitting. No more easy kills after charging them with a unit of boyz in trukks, that strategy was my best option for taking out IG armour...

I think the question is how the Battlecannon compares with a HWS armed with 3 MLs. Same BS, S8, same Sv-2 modifier. Heavy 3 instead of d6, and 1 damage instead of d3.

@Daedalus - are your IG BS3 or BS4?

 Formerly Wu wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

And duel between 2 russes will be slow watch. In average takes tad over 5 turns for battle cannon to take out russ. Not much hope of recreating gaunt's ghost tank battles.

Given that the same battle would take 6's to glance before, that actually seems to be an improvement.

Plus degrading capabilities mean whoever gets the lead is at an advantage, which is more interesting than now.

Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

has anyone considered that the leman russ may have a rule like quite a few things in AOS that says something along the lines of - if a unit contains X models then you receive + 1 to hit?

that should crank up the damage a bit shouldn't it?

 Jambles wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I was trying to be diplomatic about it, but yeah, not impressed with the Battlecannon or really what we have seen of the Russ in general thus far.

That said, if its allowed to split fire with all its weapons, and cheaper, it might be a functional unit, or if gobs of other stuff get waaaaayyyyy toned down, but I'm not terribly optimistic about the Russ in 8E thus far.

Looks way scarier from where I'm sitting. No more easy kills after charging them with a unit of boyz in trukks, that strategy was my best option for taking out IG armour...

thats probably about the only big plus thus far, though Powerklaws may still be fully capable of making a mess of one in a single round, we havent seen CC weapons like that yet.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
has anyone considered that the leman russ may have a rule like quite a few things in AOS that says something along the lines of - if a unit contains X models then you receive + 1 to hit?

that should crank up the damage a bit shouldn't it?

I certainly have. Even if we were to get the 12 pages of rules tomorrow we're still missing the majority of the rules, which are the units themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think the question is how the Battlecannon compares with a HWS armed with 3 MLs. Same BS, S8, same Sv-2 modifier. Heavy 3 instead of d6, and 1 damage instead of d3.

@Daedalus - are your IG BS3 or BS4?

BS3 on that sheet

We don't know what Tank commanders do, either. Can you take 1 per squadron now? Do they let you roll 2 dice and take the highest?

Just leave this here...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I was trying to be diplomatic about it, but yeah, not impressed with the Battlecannon or really what we have seen of the Russ in general thus far.

That said, if its allowed to split fire with all its weapons, and cheaper, it might be a functional unit, or if gobs of other stuff get waaaaayyyyy toned down, but I'm not terribly optimistic about the Russ in 8E thus far.

Looks way scarier from where I'm sitting. No more easy kills after charging them with a unit of boyz in trukks, that strategy was my best option for taking out IG armour...

thats probably about the only big plus thus far, though Powerklaws may still be fully capable of making a mess of one in a single round, we havent seen CC weapons like that yet.

Unless they make powerklaws do 2d6 wounds, I don't know how they're going to manage to make it capable of one shotting a Russ And considering a battle cannon is only 1d6, and melta is 2d6-pick-highest...

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

TBH this changes to cobi-guns benefit combi-flamers the most. the -1 to hit would only effect the bolter shots, well the flamer shots would still auto hit.

On stuff like the melta or plasma, I can see ever choosing to fire the bolter part. What ever your shooting a melta or plasma at, itn't likely to be wounded by a bolter shot anyway. So the -1 to hit on the special weapon shots would be a huge downside.

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

But turn a blind eye to demonic possession, inter-galactic super-predators, MIIIIND-BULLETS, etc and so forth?

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

It falls between a Lascannon and TL Lascannon in regards to anti-tank and better at taking on 2-3 wound targets.

I don't know what a battlecannon "should be", but to me it seems to have a purpose. Just how well it fills it for the cost and what bonuses they can get remains to be seen.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

But turn a blind eye to demonic possession, inter-galactic super-predators, MIIIIND-BULLETS, etc and so forth?

Keep in mind for many people those are real. Either way there should be a compelling use for a main battle tank in a wargame with so many MBT. I hope the new rules play that out.

Um, the Vendetta is crazy strong now with this buff to twin-linked and lascannons.

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

But turn a blind eye to demonic possession, inter-galactic super-predators, MIIIIND-BULLETS, etc and so forth?

What's that got to do with it?

Fact: Real world MBT duel is decided mostly by who shoots first as it's basically hit and dead tank. Only the very top of the line tanks have any realistic chance of surviving a hit from MBT.
Fact: 8th ed 40k Russ has patheticly weak anti tank gun that won't be deciding battle by getting first shot by far. Indeed it's not even quaranteed to blow one target during course of the game.

Why you bring out completely irrelevant stuff? ARe you just interested in trolling?

People... please dont get super hyped about random X vehicle or unit... point costs are a big unknown. A Lemon Russ for 100 points is something completely different to one for 75 or 150 or 200 or 300.

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

Too bad 8th ed doesn't really work as jack of all trades. It has very narrow field in which it does okay. And that's multi wound infantry basically. It sucks against tanks, is lousy against W1 infantry. Could be good against characters but those you won't be able to shoot.

Might be decent against monsters but if vanquisher doesn't beat the crap out of battle cannon at that there's something very wrong with vanquisher.