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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Battlecannon is might underwhelming,

Please. The Battlecannon is crap. Heavy d6, so you get 3.5 shots, or 1.75 BS3 hits on average. With S8, that's only 1.5 wounds. Against SM, Sv3+ becomes Sv5+. Net result?

An 8E Battlecannon firing into a densely-packed pile of Space Marines kills 1 guy? 2, if you get to roll the d3? Meh.

A 5" Blast would have killed 5 out of 6.

Statistically speaking, I suspect the big battle cannons are more dangerous against other tanks.

On the other hand, the Laserstorm Redoubt now has 8 lascannon shots. That deserves a 'Mwahahahahahahah'.

tneva82 wrote:

Fact: Real world MBT duel is decided mostly by who shoots first as it's basically hit and dead tank.

I don't think that would make a very fun game though.

 nintura wrote:

 Megaknob wrote:

if a squad falls back it looses the ability to do anything in the next turn, is this not a boost?

No, not really. You can't hide in combat anymore.

I will give you a situation, Tau gun line 3x fire warrior squads 2x hammer heads 3x teams of battle suits, all sorts of crazy weaponry.

Oks 3x 30 blobs of orks 2x squads of nobz in truks squad of bikers a deff dread all really choppy and killy.

Orks turn 1
So orks go first lets say every thing runs at full distance truks everything the ork army is half way across the board.

Tau turn 1
Tau shoot the life out of the orks, orks loose lets say on average 10 boys for each of the 30 blobs you pop both the truks loose a knob in the blast, dread takes 3 wounds and you mow down 3 of the 10 bikers, plenty of casualties.

Ork turn 2
Waghhh!!! everything charges each of the 20 blobs of boys charge the fire warriors the knobs charge the battle suites the bikers charge one of the hammer heads the dread charges another, the tau player decides hes going to fall back , everything falls back.

Tau turn 2
the tau player can not do anything because he chose to fall back.

Ork turn 3
the ork player charges again.

Tau turn 3
falls back again he's now against the table edge, can not fall back any further.

Ork turn 4
charges again orks obviously win the mele as we are striking first now you have been pushed off all of the objectives game over.

Ork win EZ PZ

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Fact: Real world MBT duel is decided mostly by who shoots first as it's basically hit and dead tank.

I don't think that would make a very fun game though.

Tell that to the Flames of War people. They seem to like it ok.

So since that would work equally effective in 7th, Ork were superior to Tau in most encounters?

A Deathwatch Terminator squad with Storm Bolters, Cyclones and Melts Fists sounds like expensive fun.

You know, I've been mulling a few things over and I've completely flipped a few opinions. My issue is I've been stuck in a 7e mindset when making these calculations. The reality is that almost everything is more durable now due to how the new roll to wound works, and you have to factor that into anything you try to assess a unit. Couple of things to address first:

I was wrong on the percentage chance to do 18 wounds to RG earlier, as someone pointed out. It turns out I was even more wrong than they said, as I counted him as having a 3+ save instead of a 2+ as base, so the chance to do 3 damage per shot is actually (1/2)(2/3)(1/2)(1/3)=1/18. That means the chance to do 18 wounds is really 1/204073344, or in other words ~0.00000049% (I even managed to do convert to percentage correctly this time ). Basically, it will never happen - you've got a better chance to win the UK lottery by a factor of 4.

Secondly, drop podding melta isn't as scary as it used to be. Take the humble Leman Russ, which we know know is T8 W12 3+, versus 5 melta Sternguard. 3+ to hit (probably), S8 v T8 so 4+ to wound, no save and then E(highest of D6x2)=161/36 (~4.47). That means, per shot they do (2/3)(1/2)(161/36)=161/108 damage, which is about 1.5 wounds per shot. Not only is drop pod melta not scary, it's often not doing much of anything at all. Suicide squads are a horrible idea; consider that a lascannon does 35/27 or ~1.30 wounds to the same target at 48" range, and you can clearly see that vehicles are likely going to be on the table for some time. However, it's worth noting that melta now applies to everything - T4 multiwound models will HATE facing them, and even Dreadnoughts expect to take ~2 wounds per meltagun. They're not down and out, but their role will be very different.

Next, consider the lascannon on a Leman Russ compared to the battle cannon. Both have the same roll to hit, both have a D6 roll (one for damage, one for shots), and both are wounding most units other than those with T8/9 on the same numbers. However, the Leman Russ will do twice as much damage; therefore, the only difference is the damage vs an additional -1 rend for the lascannon - this favours the battle cannon. Further, it's much better against infantry - consequently, it's usually still better than a lascannon other than against T8 vehicles. Now, consider the heavy bolter - 3 shots is fewer than the average 3.5 of the battle cannon, with lower strength, rend and damage. The battle cannon is therefore always better; in the case of MEQ, the heavy bolter expects to do 0.5 wounds to the battle cannon's near 1 wound (35/36). It's almost twice as good, and is almost 4 times as effective against multi wound models. It might not be the most dangerous gun, but I'd say outperforming a lascannon or 2 heavy bolters in many situations isn't too shabby. Now, it still looks like the best role for a Leman Russ will be to slap a bunch of heavy bolters on it as I thought initially, but the battle cannon is decently effective.

The TL thing is not as bad as I thought for hordes. My immediate thoughts were the old rifleman dreads, and the annihilation barge - these units, if left unchanged, would get 8 S7 AP -1 shots in 8e. However, when you factor in the roll to wound, that's actually better than 3 heavy bolters are in 7e - not that impressive at all really, you're doing ~1.78 wounds to MEQ per volley. It's good damage, but considering S7 is now pretty weak against vehicles due to their armour saves, you're doing less damage proportionally with these TL shots than before to AV11/12.

Finally, combi-guns firing both guns at -1 to hit. I feel it's a bit weird, but it actually makes quite a hard tactical choice; for example, is it better to use plasma at full BS vs MEQ, or is it better to fire the bolter at -1 as well as the plasma at -1? Well, on 3+ to hit, using AP2=-3 rend, a plasma does (2/3)(2/3)(5/6)=10/27 (~0.37) wounds to MEQ on its own; on 4+ to hit it does 5/18 (~0.28) and the bolter does (1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=1/12 wounds (~0.083). That means that it's better to NOT fire both guns, but the difference is less than 1% (1/108 to be precise). That's not at all obvious just looking at it. Even less obvious is that at the combi-flamer almost outperforms a combi-plasma at 8", managing 2/3 wounds compared to 20/27 - a difference of 2/27ths. Yet, the plasma may overheat if that's still in the game, and will likely cost more points. It's a really interesting dynamic.

So yeah, a surprisingly interesting update.

Battlecannons are better all rounders then before and look like they have an actual role against multi wound multiple model units like terminators. Also less reliant on edge case scenarios or your opponent making a mistake. Also since ordnance appears to be gone they no longer nerf the other weapons on the platform.

Also for all those seeing 1 marine die to a battlecannon per round on average, I'd bet some solid monte carlo analysis on 7ed battlecannons would reveal they are even worse for typical marine targeting scenarios, where they aren't clumped and you get at best 4 under the blast if you are lucky. Just a hunch though.

 Megaknob wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Megaknob wrote:

if a squad falls back it looses the ability to do anything in the next turn, is this not a boost?

No, not really. You can't hide in combat anymore.

I will give you a situation, Tau gun line 3x fire warrior squads 2x hammer heads 3x teams of battle suits, all sorts of crazy weaponry.

Oks 3x 30 blobs of orks 2x squads of nobz in truks squad of bikers a deff dread all really choppy and killy.

Orks turn 1
So orks go first lets say every thing runs at full distance truks everything the ork army is half way across the board.

Tau turn 1
Tau shoot the life out of the orks, orks loose lets say on average 10 boys for each of the 30 blobs you pop both the truks loose a knob in the blast, dread takes 3 wounds and you mow down 3 of the 10 bikers, plenty of casualties.

Ork turn 2
Waghhh!!! everything charges each of the 20 blobs of boys charge the fire warriors the knobs charge the battle suites the bikers charge one of the hammer heads the dread charges another, the tau player decides hes going to fall back , everything falls back.

Tau turn 2
the tau player can not do anything because he chose to fall back.

Ork turn 3
the ork player charges again.

Tau turn 3
falls back again he's now against the table edge, can not fall back any further.

Ork turn 4
charges again orks obviously win the mele as we are striking first now you have been pushed off all of the objectives game over.

Ork win EZ PZ

More like Tau stand firm and Overwatch as Orks charge into the properly deployed sacrificial Kroot Carnivore Squads. The following turn, any surviving Kroot fall back as the rest of the Tau army lights up the Orks. Rinse, repeat with successive waves of Kroot fodder. Hope the Kroot enjoy that Greater Good.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Fact: Real world MBT duel is decided mostly by who shoots first as it's basically hit and dead tank.

I don't think that would make a very fun game though.

Tell that to the Flames of War people. They seem to like it ok.

And thats why they play an historical and not a fantasy wargame.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

But turn a blind eye to demonic possession, inter-galactic super-predators, MIIIIND-BULLETS, etc and so forth?

When I'm able to read historical accounts of inter-galactic super- predators in action I'll complain if they work differently. We have tanks. The more they work like historical tanks (WW1-WW2) the happier I am. By grounding in things we understand fantasy becomes better.

After all, why not just declare Leman Russ can fly if "Realism" isn't a thing any more? It is a matter of degree.

 kestral wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:
Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

That's how it works in our world. Not in 40k 8th edition world though when those MBT's pack up pathetic anti tank weapon.

But turn a blind eye to demonic possession, inter-galactic super-predators, MIIIIND-BULLETS, etc and so forth?

When I'm able to read historical accounts of inter-galactic super- predators in action I'll complain if they work differently. We have tanks. The more they work like historical tanks (WW1-WW2) the happier I am. By grounding in things we understand fantasy becomes better.

To clarify, that is your opinion, and is only that - do not subjectively treat that as a fact.

This is not about realism. Is about "Universe consistence". If 40k tanks can jump like bunnies because thats how the universe works, 40k tanks should jump like bunies.

It doesn't mater how X work in real life. In this case, 40k tanks work aproximately like the ones in real life, but they aren't equal. So don't use "realism" as an argument.

Change to T/L gets my vote, this is harking back to the old Epic scale Space Marine with 'Grades' of weapons being how many shots it put into the same target.

Newer really understood why firing two marine guns at something just made one of them more accurate.

Plus the less re-rolls in the game the better for me, limit that to characters and only characters

torblind wrote:
So since that would work equally effective in 7th, Ork were superior to Tau in most encounters?

no you can not fall back in 7th, they have over watch, and marker lights IMO sounds a lot more effective then simply falling back and making you useless, but this is all speculation no body knows how the game will actually play, so making a statement like "how stupid we were to think CC would be viable again" with no real evidence or facts is a bit stupid to me.
you read one rule buffing ranged combat and completely dismissed all of the CC buffs crazy talk bro.

 gorgon wrote:
There was an entire edition of 40K in which units had to shoot the nearest unit of a given type. Somehow I think the game will survive some screening mechanics for characters.

And which edition would that be?

If you're referring to 4th, a simple Ld test bypassed the target priority rules.

Ruin wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
There was an entire edition of 40K in which units had to shoot the nearest unit of a given type. Somehow I think the game will survive some screening mechanics for characters.

And which edition would that be?

If you're referring to 4th, a simple Ld test bypassed the target priority rules.

tank bustas 5th edition it was a special rule.

Ruin wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
There was an entire edition of 40K in which units had to shoot the nearest unit of a given type. Somehow I think the game will survive some screening mechanics for characters.

And which edition would that be?

If you're referring to 4th, a simple Ld test bypassed the target priority rules.

And its almost like you have an entire movement phase and part of a shooting phase to adjust and try and get the characters.........

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

Battle cannon is terrible. BS3 Battle cannon shooting at your typical vehicle or Monstrous creature (T6 or T7, 3+ save) does, on average, 0.444 wounds per shot. Old Battle Cannon wasn't that great either but it wasn't this bad against heavy targets.

Russes might still be good because of Hull Weapons and Sponsons, but unfortunate that main weapon is so impotent.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
This is not about realism. Is about "Universe consistence". If 40k tanks can jump like bunnies because thats how the universe works, 40k tanks should jump like bunies.

It doesn't mater how X work in real life. In this case, 40k tanks work aproximately like the ones in real life, but they aren't equal. So don't use "realism" as an argument.

Not equal, but they were quite close approximation (infantry also doesn't work like in real life, with much more emphasis on close combat). Tanks have now moved much away from the old model, it's understandable people don't like it.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Fact: Real world MBT duel is decided mostly by who shoots first as it's basically hit and dead tank.

I don't think that would make a very fun game though.

Tell that to the Flames of War people. They seem to like it ok.

Thats Team Yankee with its high AT ratings v armour and 2+ Firepower as standard, Flames of War certainly used to avoid the one hit wonders with most nations tanks outside the light ones and earlier German units which suffer against later Anti Tank Guns as they historically did.

But then the trick in flames is using cover to minimise the effectiveness of the enemies guns and forcing them to move to reduce their rate of fire.

FoW has had a better and more detailed core system in 15mm for years.. units splitting fire on a team by team basis, to hit roll based on the enemies training not yours.

GW seem to be learning, slowly

Dang. Ninja'd WRT Team Yankee above.

 Galas wrote:

And thats why they play an historical and not a fantasy wargame.

And it is not like even in FoW a tank which shots first autokills the enemy. They have maybe one in four chance of doing so or something thereabouts. It is just that being a 15mm game you persemably have more tanks than in average 40K game, so keeping track of HP for each individually would be annoying, so they're just either fine, bailed out, or destroyed.

Backfire wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

Battle cannon is terrible. BS3 Battle cannon shooting at your typical vehicle or Monstrous creature (T6 or T7, 3+ save) does, on average, 0.444 wounds per shot. Old Battle Cannon wasn't that great either but it wasn't this bad against heavy targets.

lol?

Hey remember when a Leman Russ could only deal one wound to a MC or 1 HP(before penetration) on vehicles?

Russes might still be good because of Hull Weapons and Sponsons, but unfortunate that main weapon is so impotent.

That main weapon is 1 point of Strength less than a Lascannon and with one less point of AP modifier.

And again:
This is the basic Leman Russ Battle Cannon. It's not the Vanquisher, it's not the Demolisher, it's not the Eradicator, it's the basic cannon.

Backfire wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

Battle cannon is terrible. BS3 Battle cannon shooting at your typical vehicle or Monstrous creature (T6 or T7, 3+ save) does, on average, 0.444 wounds per shot. Old Battle Cannon wasn't that great either but it wasn't this bad against heavy targets.

Russes might still be good because of Hull Weapons and Sponsons, but unfortunate that main weapon is so impotent.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
This is not about realism. Is about "Universe consistence". If 40k tanks can jump like bunnies because thats how the universe works, 40k tanks should jump like bunies.

It doesn't mater how X work in real life. In this case, 40k tanks work aproximately like the ones in real life, but they aren't equal. So don't use "realism" as an argument.

Not equal, but they were quite close approximation (infantry also doesn't work like in real life, with much more emphasis on close combat). Tanks have now moved much away from the old model, it's understandable people don't like it.

How are you figuring this? If you treat the "average" roll of a D6 to be 3.5, a BS3 battlecannon gets 3.5 * 0.5 hits * .66 wounds * .66 unsaved * 1.5 damage = 1.14 unsaved wounds/shot on average versus a Dreadnought with the new save system. Not amazing, but generally better than the current LRBC does against a dread.

Backfire wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
This is not about realism. Is about "Universe consistence". If 40k tanks can jump like bunnies because thats how the universe works, 40k tanks should jump like bunies.

It doesn't mater how X work in real life. In this case, 40k tanks work aproximately like the ones in real life, but they aren't equal. So don't use "realism" as an argument.

Not equal, but they were quite close approximation (infantry also doesn't work like in real life, with much more emphasis on close combat). Tanks have now moved much away from the old model, it's understandable people don't like it.

Yes, in the Imperial Guard tanks it has a point, but not because "realism"; but because thats how they worked in the past in-universe. I just wanted to throw away this "realism" thing before going any further. Universe consistence=/=realism.

Ghorros wrote:
Statistically speaking, I suspect the big battle cannons are more dangerous against other tanks.

Less than 1 tac marine in open, about 2 wounds and spare to another russ. More dangerous but still not that dangerous.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Battle Cannons have been shoddy anti-tank for quite some time.

This is, IMO, a good "all-rounder". And I think that is the part people keep forgetting about.

The Leman Russ with Battle Cannon? It's the "jack of all trades" variant.

Battle cannon is terrible. BS3 Battle cannon shooting at your typical vehicle or Monstrous creature (T6 or T7, 3+ save) does, on average, 0.444 wounds per shot. Old Battle Cannon wasn't that great either but it wasn't this bad against heavy targets.

lol?

Hey remember when a Leman Russ could only deal one wound to a MC or 1 HP(before penetration) on vehicles?

I also remember that those days, average Vehicle had 3 Hull points and average MC had 4 Wounds. Now, Dread has 8 wounds and a Carnifex probably about same.
Doing d6 hits on hordes is also pretty mediocre. Battle Cannon seems ok against multiwound infantry like Tyranid Warriors, Nobs etc.

the_scotsman wrote:

How are you figuring this? If you treat the "average" roll of a D6 to be 3.5, a BS3 battlecannon gets 3.5 * 0.5 hits * .66 wounds * .66 unsaved * 1.5 damage = 1.14 unsaved wounds/shot on average versus a Dreadnought with the new save system. Not amazing, but generally better than the current LRBC does against a dread.

Shouldn't that be 2 damage? So 1,5 unsaved wounds in total?

 Genestealer Jesse wrote:

Two similar tech level MBT shooting at each other with main guns... whoever fires first gets the kill right? Maybe not every time, but if you get nailed by a main gun and survive that should mean you are REALLY lucky.

If that were modeled in game, one of two things would have to be true.

Either a) The LRBT would also be capable of reliably one-shotting anything of similar or lesser bulk to itself- so Carnifexes, Dreadnoughts, etc.

Or b) The LR would be exceptionally easy to kill compared to its likely opponents.

Neither of those are desirable game outcomes, so here we are.

You're also applying 20th/21st century tank doctrine to a tank with vastly different operating requirements and likely opposition.

 Megaknob wrote:

Ork turn 2
Waghhh!!! everything charges each of the 20 blobs of boys charge the fire warriors the knobs charge the battle suites the bikers charge one of the hammer heads the dread charges another, the tau player decides hes going to fall back , everything falls back.

Tau turn 2
the tau player can not do anything because he chose to fall back.

You realize tau shooting isn't going to be so weak that he would be able to charge everything? If he could why isn't ork curb stomping tau at will? After all in 7th ed those tau would be dead instantly or locked in combat and dead then anyway so no difference to here except here any units not in combat can shoot freely unlike before...So for shooty army it's either same as before(units assaulted are dead or in combat preventing shooting) or better(they didn't die and aren't in combat anymore so you can shoot at will)