40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Red Corsair**

docdoom77 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
I was disappointed to see Battle Focus on the list. What's the point of move values if you keep adding weird movement abilities?

Hopefully it at least has a drawback. Like can shoot after advancing but shooting is at -1.

The drawback could be that it only applies to units with the "Infantry" keyword.

That's not a drawback. Only infantry units can use it now. If you give Eldar a higher Move value AND let them run and shoot freely every turn, that sounds like just too much. But, my money is on it having an actual drawback of some kind.

For all you know all it does is let them reroll there run while maybe fleet only works in the assault phase now. Just because something is called the same thing as it was in 7th doesnn't mean it works remotely similar, look at melta for example.

**Daedalus81**

Gamgee wrote:
And one way to ignore mortal wounds with the avatar. So... not really all that much simpler... really.

I made you a flow chart.

Spoiler:

**theocracity**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

...
A Mortal Wound is simply a wound that you cannot save against for some reason.

Correction, that you cannot save against AND that doesn't care how high your toughness is.

Like a wraithcannon or vortex grenade. What reason would there be for a hot piece of metal to cause mortal wounds?

And a titan was just an example of something that would have a really high toughness and really good armor save and possibly an invulnerable save. Substitute any other such thing, like a land raider, if that is what is making this difficult for you.

Considering that you can always wound on a 6, and always fail an armor save on a 1, there's only so much Toughness and Armor you can give a titan (or a Land Raider) to protect it. Therefore most of the actual resilience of a Titan will likely be in its wound count. While Mortal wounds will obviously help do damage to titans, I don't think that they'll be in enough quantity to consider them more than a moderately useful tool to deal with them. You'd be better off with high strength weapons with good rend and multiple wounds, so that those attacks that do get through actually have an impact. [strike]I also think that D-strength weapons will be the only weapons that can deal multiple mortal wounds (beyond weird individual effects). [/strike] I forgot about Smite. Still I think it will be relatively rare.

This mortal wounds vs titan debate reminds me of the Lasgun vs Land Raider one. Just because you can kill a titan with a mandiblaster doesn't mean that they'll be the go-to weapon for the job.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Here's three Scrolls from AoS, showing different situations Mortal Wounds can crop up.

None of them as simply 'dish out Mortal Wounds'. All have some kind of trigger ability.

Mournfangs? If their save is a 6, they inflict a mortal wound on a unit with 1"

Archaic on? D3 if you select the Nurgle head after slaying an enemy model in combat.

Ironclad? If the enemy ends a charge move with 1", then on a 4+ they take D3 mortal wounds.

That's just the first three I could find with Mortal Wounds. Hardly a 'just inflict them' for any, no?

**Red Corsair**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
They tend to be on elite units and are used to rep up things that used to be similar to Hammer of Wrath attacks.

I think it's entirely appropriate for Mandiblasters to do them.

Don\t think mandiblasters has ever been described as making attacks capable of punching effortlessly through titans armour...

I don't think it ever said that it caused Mortal Wounds on Titans.

Ah yes that makes less bloat if they start separating against what each weapon causes mortal wounds.

Furthermore mandiblaster has _never_ been described as being particularly powerful attack. It's not hyper terminator killer either!

For all you know, Mandiblasters cause Mortal Wounds in combats against things with the Infantry or Monstrous Creature keywords.

Which would still be quite a spam. Lots of infantry etc in there.

Mortal wound is simply awful mechanism. Just look at AOS where it's race between mortal wounds and hordes. Tougher infantry are in deep trouble when mortal wounds just ignores all saves(and in 40k also T)

My point was that doing mortal wounds doesn't seem to fit at all with what mandiblasters are. Are they supposed to punch effortlessly through terminator armor? Or just as effortlessly through anything regardless of toughness and armor? It seems like they just gave them mortal wounds to save the effort of thinking of a rule that made sense.

Honestly this isn't the first time scorpians made zero sense. Remember when they were magically s4 or when their tiny crappy looking chainswords were +1 strength? Or in 7th, when their mandiblasters are are super poison 4+ and ap2, yeah they still wound GMC on a 4+ because, reasons

?

It's because despite being cool looking, they have ALWAYS sucked. They are slow, have worse gear then banshees but are worse infiltrators then rangers but are somehow supposed to stand out as combat masters of stealth, when in reality they have the profile of a storm guardian with a 3+ save and a couple USR's. I love the back ground for SS, but honestly I would rather they just retire that shrine then have them make ridiculously imbalanced nonfluffy rules just so they are viable.

**Albino Squirrel**

theocracity wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

...
A Mortal Wound is simply a wound that you cannot save against for some reason.

Correction, that you cannot save against AND that doesn't care how high your toughness is.

Like a wraithcannon or vortex grenade. What reason would there be for a hot piece of metal to cause mortal wounds?

And a titan was just an example of something that would have a really high toughness and really good armor save and possibly an invulnerable save. Substitute any other such thing, like a land raider, if that is what is making this difficult for you.

Considering that you can always wound on a 6, and always fail an armor save on a 1, there's only so much Toughness and Armor you can give a titan (or a Land Raider) to protect it. Therefore most of the actual resilience of a Titan will likely be in its wound count. While Mortal wounds will obviously help do damage to titans, I don't think that they'll be in enough quantity to consider them more than a moderately useful tool to deal with them. You'd be better off with high strength weapons with good rend and multiple wounds, so that those attacks that do get through actually have an impact. I also think that D-strength weapons will be the only weapons that can deal multiple mortal wounds.

This mortal wounds vs titan debate reminds me of the Lasgun vs Land Raider one. Just because you can kill a titan with a mandiblaster doesn't mean that they'll be the go-to weapon for the job.

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

**Kanluwen**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

...
A Mortal Wound is simply a wound that you cannot save against for some reason.

Correction, that you cannot save against AND that doesn't care how high your toughness is.

The second part is up in the air.

We know that you cannot save against it. We know that certain things with no Strength values(Psychic Powers) just inflict them.

Like a wraithcannon or vortex grenade. What reason would there be for a hot piece of metal to cause mortal wounds?

It's not a "hot piece of metal". It's slivers of metal, launched accurately at speed into exposed flesh, which then gets turned into a deadly piece of hot metal when inside of something.

And a titan was just an example of something that would have a really high toughness and really good armor save and possibly an invulnerable save. Substitute any other such thing, like a land raider, if that is what is making this difficult for you.

Here's the rub.

You're not "making this difficult" for me. You purposely picked an outlandish scenario to try to make an absurdist argument for something that you disagree with. Yes yes we know that vehicles have a Toughness value now. That doesn't just automatically mean that every single thing that applies to flesh and blood is going to affect them though.

Literally all we know is that Mandiblasters can cause a Mortal Wound, somehow. We don't have the rules for Mandiblasters though.

Albino Squirrel wrote:

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

Albino Squirrel wrote:
mandiblasters do mortal wounds??? Never imagined them as being specialized anti-titan weapons.

Want to try that again? You brought up this whole argument in the first place.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go do something productive now though. Maybe I'll build some Striking Scorpions crouched on a dead Knight.

**davou**

tneva82 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

I've shown you several instances where, while they do not "roll for wound", Mortal Wounds are triggered by a specific roll value to Hit.

Ahahahaha! That's what I have been talking about. Don't just reply without reading what I write. That's TO HIT. I'm talking about WOUNDING. To hit obviously doesn't care about opponents toughness. It punches right through.

You are making my point for me. Thanks!

Mortal wounds don't roll to wound. You keep claiming they could. I ask you to show one example. You show where they roll to hit. Gee. I have never claimed mortal wounds auto hit. I'm saying they auto wound.

Again. Read what I say if you want to reply. Otherwise we are going to be going this in circles.

"Mortal wounds if hit automatically wound"
"No they don't. Look. Here's them rolling to hit"
"Yes. That's right. You have to see if mortal wound hits. But that's not wounding. They don't care about how tough you are. They just wound you"
"But hey! They need to HIT!"
"Yes. That's what I mean. IF you hit you wound target automatically."
"But they need to hit! Therefore they don't auto-wound!"

Repeat this like decade if you want. I'm bored of it. You want to believe to hit and to wound are same thing feel free.

Eh, how old are you?

**ClockworkZion**

From Facebook:

Q: any chance we can get an article about the changes that help melee focused armies? Like some of their special rules or some samplings of wargear (or both)? It'd go a long way to make people feel that melee is no longer dead if we knew some more on why it's not dead.
A: We will look into it; that's a great idea.

So we may get some melee focused love in the future to help soothe some fears.

**DeChevalier**

... And here's to hoping that anything with Gauss causes Mortal Wounds.

So fluffy!

**Albino Squirrel**

Kanluwen wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

...
A Mortal Wound is simply a wound that you cannot save against for some reason.

Correction, that you cannot save against AND that doesn't care how high your toughness is.

The second part is up in the air.

We know that you cannot save against it. We know that certain things with no Strength values(Psychic Powers) just inflict them.

Like a wraithcannon or vortex grenade. What reason would there be for a hot piece of metal to cause mortal wounds?

It's not a "hot piece of metal". It's slivers of metal, launched accurately at speed into exposed flesh, which then gets turned into a deadly piece of hot metal when inside of something.

And a titan was just an example of something that would have a really high toughness and really good armor save and possibly an invulnerable save. Substitute any other such thing, like a land raider, if that is what is making this difficult for you.

Here's the rub.

You're not "making this difficult" for me. You purposely picked an outlandish scenario to try to make an absurdist argument for something that you disagree with. Yes yes we know that vehicles have a Toughness value now. That doesn't just automatically mean that every single thing that applies to flesh and blood is going to affect them though.

Literally all we know is that Mandiblasters can cause a Mortal Wound, somehow. We don't have the rules for Mandiblasters though.

Albino Squirrel wrote:

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

Albino Squirrel wrote:
mandiblasters do mortal wounds??? Never imagined them as being specialized anti-titan weapons.

Want to try that again? You brought up this whole argument in the first place.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go do something productive now though. Maybe I'll build some Striking Scorpions crouched on a dead Knight.

You are making it difficult for yourself. It shouldn't be difficult. Striking scorpions charging a titan or monstrous creature or anything else with high toughness and a good save is not an outlandish scenario. In fact if the rules make them disproportionately effective against those targets, I'd think it would become a very common scenario. That's kind of the problem, as it doesn't fit with their background.

**Azreal13**

Lexicanum wrote:Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death. Because of the neural activation of the device the accuracy is often very high and it makes an effective pre-combat rank thinner.

So, a highly accurate, point blank, plasma shot.

Sounds exactly like the sort of thing that should be bypassing armour and hitting the vulnerable spots.

Plus, lets not pretend that Scorpions didn't really need something to help them out.

**Daedalus81**

Other important things to note:

- AoS mortal wounds ignore 'Save Rolls' only. A Save Roll is a specific term using the characteristic on the profile.
- AoS have extra abilities granting a roll versus wounds, mortal wounds, or both.
- AoS has no concept of an invulnerable save even if some act like it.

- A mortal wound save in AoS is equivalent to an invulnerable in 40K.
- A mortal wound in AoS is equivalent to an attack that has a rend of 6 in 40K.

- AoS and 40K are not the same system even if they share a lot of similarities.

**theocracity**

Albino Squirrel wrote:

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

In that case I'm not sure why it's an issue at all. Conditional sources of single-damage mortal wounds don't break things.

Edit: And also, yeah, you brought it up :p

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Could be Gauss inflicts Mortal Wounds on a roll a 6 to hit against Keyword Vehicles.

**Daedalus81**

Albino Squirrel wrote:

You are making it difficult for yourself. It shouldn't be difficult. Striking scorpions charging a titan or monstrous creature or anything else with high toughness and a good save is not an outlandish scenario. In fact if the rules make them disproportionately effective against those targets, I'd think it would become a very common scenario. That's kind of the problem, as it doesn't fit with their background.

I'm pretty confident they took those scenarios into consideration.

**Albino Squirrel**

theocracity wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

In that case I'm not sure why it's an issue at all. Conditional sources of single-damage mortal wounds don't break things.

Again, for the 5th time, it has nothing to do with "breaking" anything or being too good or unbalanced.

**theocracity**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
theocracity wrote:
Albino Squirrel wrote:

You can Kan are the only people debating about mortal wounds vs titans, which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion about mandiblasters.

In that case I'm not sure why it's an issue at all. Conditional sources of single-damage mortal wounds don't break things.

Again, for the 5th time, it has nothing to do with "breaking" anything or being too good or unbalanced.

Then what's the issue?

**nintura**

Azreal13 wrote:
Lexicanum wrote:Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death. Because of the neural activation of the device the accuracy is often very high and it makes an effective pre-combat rank thinner.

So, a highly accurate, point blank, plasma shot.

Sounds exactly like the sort of thing that should be bypassing armour and hitting the vulnerable spots.

Plus, lets not pretend that Scorpions didn't really need something to help them out.

What? You didnt like them being super expensive ablative wounds for your Exarch's Claw?

**Albino Squirrel**

Azreal13 wrote:
Lexicanum wrote:Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death. Because of the neural activation of the device the accuracy is often very high and it makes an effective pre-combat rank thinner.

So, a highly accurate, point blank, plasma shot.

Sounds exactly like the sort of thing that should be bypassing armour and hitting the vulnerable spots.

Plus, lets not pretend that Scorpions didn't really need something to help them out.

Maybe. Sounds like it would be really effective against unarmored guys, and not at all against any kind of armor. I mean, even a plasma cannon presumably does not cause mortal wounds. To suggest that the blast of a mandiblaster is more powerful seems unlikely. I guess you could argue they intend that it's so accurate that they always bypass the armor by finding a weak point, but again that's not really how I could have imagined it, since you literally have to point your whole face at what you want to hit.

**frozenwastes**

I love the power approach. It's a more honest points system that doesn't pretend to be anything more than a general guideline for building scenarios and setting up games.

The best thing is that having two systems means those who want to pretend their matched play points system will produce balanced results can continue to do so.

**gnome_idea_what**

The "we can't show you everything, but we'll give you a taste of what's happening and hint at stuff coming later!" Attitude is really annoying, while I know it's designed to stir up hype it just ends up creating "technically not baseless but functionally baseless" speculation and gets annoying with all the waiting. It'll be really funny if when we have enough info and leaks and start piecing the codexes together a few weeks from launch, and they're still hyping like the new edition is a year away. The tiny amount of info every day feels like the community is on an I.V drip, and I wish that we'd get enough crunch to actually do something with in weekly dumps and the hyperbole and hype in avoidable daily posts. Or they could run an ARG or something, that way it would feel like we're actively participating in discovering the new rules.

**jamopower**

"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

**Daedalus81**

Albino Squirrel wrote:

Maybe. Sounds like it would be really effective against unarmored guys, and not at all against any kind of armor. I mean, even a plasma cannon presumably does not cause mortal wounds. To suggest that the blast of a mandiblaster is more powerful seems unlikely. I guess you could argue they intend that it's so accurate that they always bypass the armor by finding a weak point, but again that's not really how I could have imagined it, since you literally have to point your while face at what you want to hit.

A plasma cannon is not precise nor point blank, correct.

The roles of units are going to change. We don't know precisely how effective these guys will be or what they'll really be good at. I imagine they are the anti-elite CC where banshees are anti-horde.

**Formerly Wu**

frozenwastes wrote:
The best thing is that having two systems means those who want to pretend their matched play points system will produce balanced results can continue to do so.

I shouldn't laugh, but I did.

Have an exalt.

**Daedalus81**

frozenwastes wrote:
I love the power approach. It's a more honest points system that doesn't pretend to be anything more than a general guideline for building scenarios and setting up games.

The best thing is that having two systems means those who want to pretend their matched play points system will produce balanced results can continue to do so.

You can dig on it all you want, but paying for your special weapons will always be more balanced than not - especially when a whole unit of Rubrics can take flamers for free otherwise.

**nintura**

Albino Squirrel wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
Lexicanum wrote:Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death. Because of the neural activation of the device the accuracy is often very high and it makes an effective pre-combat rank thinner.

So, a highly accurate, point blank, plasma shot.

Sounds exactly like the sort of thing that should be bypassing armour and hitting the vulnerable spots.

Plus, lets not pretend that Scorpions didn't really need something to help them out.

Maybe. Sounds like it would be really effective against unarmored guys, and not at all against any kind of armor. I mean, even a plasma cannon presumably does not cause mortal wounds. To suggest that the blast of a mandiblaster is more powerful seems unlikely. I guess you could argue they intend that it's so accurate that they always bypass the armor by finding a weak point, but again that's not really how I could have imagined it, since you literally have to point your whole face at what you want to hit.

just curious, have you ever seen/heard of an EFP? Explosively Formed Penetrator? I'm not saying the mandile metal slivers are the same, but I'm trying to explain what heat can do to armor. An EFP is a copper cone. Copper as we know is a soft metal. However, when this explodes, it's so hot that it can melt through INCHES of steel INSTANTLY and with no resistance. Purely from heat alone. Insurgents did that because we were uparmoring our humvees. It's crazy what heat can do when it's a few thousand degrees.

http://www.datria.org/j_humvee1.jpg

**Daedalus81**

gnome_idea_what wrote:
The "we can't show you everything, but we'll give you a taste of what's happening and hint at stuff coming later!" Attitude is really annoying, while I know it's designed to stir up hype it just ends up creating "technically not baseless but functionally baseless" speculation and gets annoying with all the waiting. It'll be really funny if when we have enough info and leaks and start piecing the codexes together a few weeks from launch, and they're still hyping like the new edition is a year away. The tiny amount of info every day feels like the community is on an I.V drip, and I wish that we'd get enough crunch to actually do something with in weekly dumps and the hyperbole and hype in avoidable daily posts. Or they could run an ARG or something, that way it would feel like we're actively participating in discovering the new rules.

Patience is a virtue!

I have something to look forward to reading each day and a little extra every other day. Makes work go by faster.

People that choose to draw haphazard conclusions do so at their own risk.

**Albino Squirrel**

I guess it does somewhat underscore how much the game has changed. Half the people seem to only care about how powerful a rule is or how well the rule combines with other rules to help them win. I am more interested in the rules bringing to life the described background.

Yes, I realize they've always struggled with that. Doesn't mean I can't point out when they continue to fail at it.

**Daedalus81**

One other added benefit of this drip-feed...

We're processing the rules day by day and building an understanding on how things work as compared to the old edition, in pieces.

You know what used to happen? We get the book when it comes out and people would freak the feth out, because they're constantly trying to reconcile the new to the old all at once.