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The last part was not aimed at anyone in particular by the way.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Spoiler:

Oh, GW, it really wouldn't be you if your rules organization made any sense :

Rule 1: Defense. Also, shooting.

Rule 2: Other defense.

That totally follows any coherent pattern of organization. Oh, wait, no, the other one.

Also, interesting to see how they mixed up the force (and I assume power) weapon varieties' AP

This is a great example on how someone's perspective warps how they process information.

Why do you think they got it wrong instead of they simply changed it so that they work differently?

To clarify, I meant the less-common usage of (re)arranged in a manner I wasn't used to, regarding AP, unless you're referring to how I think their rules order is stupid- I stand by that being stupid.

@theocracity

That's true, and I agree fully. That is also why I feel despite all the flack Frankie took for his article, it caused much less hysteria then either of Reece's articles. He should have specified how mandiblasters work, or been extremely vague, dripping in the out put of the rule without telling us the input was stupid.

Should have just stuck to the Avatars weapon for a specific detail.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

theocracity wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

There are only two immutable rules of 40k fluff: there are no female space Marines, and Mandiblasters are for tickling only.

I thought it was no female Space Marines and Lasguns double as flashlights.

Three! The three immutable rules of 40k are.... etc

No one expects the Imperial Inquisition.

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

You can think it as similar to rending currently. It allows for attacks that are normally quite weak, but thag can find a weak spot and thus be mortal. Whereas plasma gun is consistently lethal and thus has a high rend and strength. I bet harlequin's kisses are capable of dealing mortal wounds in the New system as well.

macluvin wrote:
But its just a way to put the models you want to represent your army that is what you envision your army as and not supposed to be asystem for WAAC players to abuse. Besides, suppose that the power points cost might be adjusted according to how much the upgrades can boost them as well as naked? I think this will be a great edition to be honest. Maybe not at launch but I bet if people interact with Games Workshop CONSTRUCTIONALLY then we will one day have a near perfect system. Quit saying stuff sucks and they should feel bad its not helping anyone.

The power system is general guidelines so I'm guessing that once we see points values and compare, they'll come in somewhere in the middle.

Furthermore, they'll be useful for making non equal scenarios. Doing an attacker defender scenario where the attacker has brought a proper concentration of force to bear? Give the attacker 50% (or even 100%) more power and don't worry about weapon load outs. The scenario will work as intended and can be built quickly. People have been doing Open and Narrative play in Age of SIgmar since the General's Handbook came out and for many a simple guideline points system lets them get to the game they want faster than just feeling things out without one. It'll be a useful tool to make the type of games people want to play.

A point system that pretends to be some sort of basis for competition as an equal footing with as much of the options compensated for as possible? That's for matched play. I don't really expect GW to get it any closer to working than the AoS system with it's things like Skyfire spam.

As for people interacting with GW constructively, their current social media guy seems to be really good at dealing with negativity and responding with humour. Hopefully people get the hint that while GW is now willing to listen, they also have a gate keeper that will turn non constructive feedback into a joke like it deserves.

macluvin wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


But its just a way to put the models you want to represent your army that is what you envision your army as and not supposed to be asystem for WAAC players to abuse. Besides, suppose that the power points cost might be adjusted according to how much the upgrades can boost them as well as naked? I think this will be a great edition to be honest. Maybe not at launch but I bet if people interact with Games Workshop CONSTRUCTIONALLY then we will one day have a near perfect system. Quit saying stuff sucks and they should feel bad its not helping anyone.

I have no problems with having both systems. I play AoS, which is power level. I just don't think people should be taking stabs at matched points unnecessarily.

Are you kidding me?

The keystone of the lore of the Striking Scorpions, the very thing their legitimacy in the setting hinged on, was whether or not their little flavorful backup weapon could penetrate varying levels of armour?

Good grief.

Yeah, NOW they're completely unbelievable, these space elves in psychic bone armour with chainsaw swords and ninja star pistols. "But muh loar!!11" Get a grip. God forbid if they actually changed something meaningful?

This is some crazy minutiae to drill down into right here.

It had everything to do with what you were talking about lol.

I think your just making up rules for the rest of us to follow as you choose to be offended.

Daedalus81 wrote:
I have no problems with having both systems. I play AoS, which is power level. I just don't think people should be taking stabs at matched points unnecessarily.

33 years of GW points systems, but this time. This time it will be different.

Well, to be fair we haven't even seen the result of Age of Sigmar's annual review, so it could be that it will turn out differently and that as things are exposed in the Points system they'll be adjusted and people won't have to wait years for a new codex or a supplement to "fix" things.

All in all I'm positive about the Power vs Points split.

May 10, 2017
Warhammer 40k, 8th Edition Rumours: Dark Eldar!

Saltometer: 4/5

Overview:

Jink is +2 to armour save but -1 to hit with weapons. People inside unaffected.

Shadow field is +1 to armour save.

Flickerfields is 5++ still.

Dark eldar vehicles come with a 4+ armour save.

Raider has 10 wounds, venom has 6.

Source: http://saltywargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/warhammer-40k-8th-edition-rumours-dark.html

Seems salty, but seem to be reasonable and plausible.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Furthermore, they'll be useful for making non equal scenarios. Doing an attacker defender scenario where the attacker has brought a proper concentration of force to bear? Give the attacker 50% (or even 100%) more power and don't worry about weapon load outs. The scenario will work as intended and can be built quickly. People have been doing Open and Narrative play in Age of SIgmar since the General's Handbook came out and for many a simple guideline points system lets them get to the game they want faster than just feeling things out without one. It'll be a useful tool to make the type of games people want to play.

Umm that\s not exactly what you need power levels...Can be done just as well with normal points as well. Been doing that for like decade at least.

 jamopower wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
"Mandiblasters are neurally activated weapons which fire a hail of deadly metallic shards. These shards, while capable of cutting and lacerating flesh, are not particularly powerful alone; they act as a conductor to a follow-up intense laser burst. The laser flashes the slivers of metal into plasma, which can cause significant injury or death."

Sounds suitable for mortal wounds for me.

@can inflict@ That\s not @I punch through whatever protection you have@ level of weapon.

Plasma gun fires pure...well plasma. Same as mandiblaster. Expecting plasma guns to be causing mortal wounds any time soon_

So? Probably it will be an Attack that causes mortal wounds on sixes to hit or something along those lines.

So expecting to see plasma gun cause mortal wounds on 6\s to hit_

In 30 years mandiblaster has never been described as capable of hurting everything. It\s biggest advantage has been ability to hit enemy at close range before enemy gets to attack.

This new ability comes out of blue with no basis on existing background. Furthermore it isnt even really needed. There would be lots of ways to make scorpions threatening and worth their points without forgetting decades of background material.

If we want to redesign everything from scratch I say make assault marines jumpping shooty units.

You can think it as similar to rending currently. It allows for attacks that are normally quite weak, but thag can find a weak spot and thus be mortal. Whereas plasma gun is consistently lethal and thus has a high rend and strength. I bet harlequin's kisses are capable of dealing mortal wounds in the New system as well.

Precisely this.

The Scorpion, at point blank range, focuses on the opponents eye piece, the soft articulation in a join, an exposed mechanism, pre existing damage, the inexplicably helmetless head, etc etc, and, with a thought, launches a metal spike into it, which instantly turns into a superheated bolt of gas. The odds of a Plasma Gun doing similar (or perhaps more accurately, the odds of it not doing this) are represented by its rend value.

In 30 years, there's never been a compelling reason to take Scorpions outside of fluff or personal preference, this may well change that. That it could have been done differently is a total non-argument that applies to literally every other rule in the game, and trying to cite fluff as a reason for crunch is equally shaky.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Scorpion, at point blank range, focuses on the opponents eye piece, the soft articulation in a join, an exposed mechanism, pre existing damage, the inexplicably helmetless head, etc etc, and, with a thought, launches a metal spike into it, which instantly turns into a superheated bolt of gas. The odds of a Plasma Gun doing similar (or perhaps more accurately, the odds of it not doing this) are represented by its rend value.

In 30 years, there's never been a compelling reason to take Scorpions outside of fluff or personal preference, this may well change that. That it could have been done differently is a total non-argument that applies to literally every other rule in the game, and trying to cite fluff as a reason for crunch is equally shaky.

That explains nicely how that works for terminators(capable of surviving being stomped by titan), land raider and titan...NOT!

And that it can be done in ways that's appropriate for fluff is appropriate. You can have scorpions that are good for existing fluff! You don't need to redesign units. On that logic why not make assault marines into shooty unit that fires beams that make lascannon pale in comparison out of their pistols? Assault marines have sucked and it can be done while being balanced so no different from redesinging mandiblaster.

What is there to be gained by throwing existing fluff randomly out of window? Balance? Moot point since you can make scorpions balanced within existing fluff. You could even make them BROKENLY GOOD without varying from existing fluff...

I dunno. In one of my Elder lists I took them (two 7 man squads) as a counter to Genestealer Cults and objective campers that would not die to Scatterbikes for whatever reason.

That said I want to see more about what they do now.

I guess I could buy the mandiblaster being an attack that, if you roll say a 6 to wound, becomes a mortal wound (thus bypassing armor/invulnerable saves), to represent the chance of the mandiblaster shooting someone right in the eye at point-blank range. Like others have said, similar to how you might represent a sniper getting a perfect kill shot. Still, that would probably be better represented by saying it wounds automatically if you roll a 6 to hit (so better armor or being in a tank would still make it less likely).

Since discussing how the rules represent (or don't) the background apparently causes people to lose their minds... I also think the heavy bolter should have been Damage 2 instead of -1 save. And the battle cannon should roll to hit then do D6 hits, instead of getting D6 shots.

tneva82 wrote:

That explains nicely how that works for terminators(capable of surviving being stomped by titan), land raider and titan...NOT!

And that it can be done in ways that's appropriate for fluff is appropriate. You can have scorpions that are good for existing fluff! You don't need to redesign units. On that logic why not make assault marines into shooty unit that fires beams that make lascannon pale in comparison out of their pistols? Assault marines have sucked and it can be done while being balanced so no different from redesinging mandiblaster.

What is there to be gained by throwing existing fluff randomly out of window? Balance? Moot point since you can make scorpions balanced within existing fluff. You could even make them BROKENLY GOOD without varying from existing fluff...

So much hyperbole it hurts my head.

On a much needed but OT tangent...hope we get a slew of new Start Collecting sets with the launch.

Thousand Sons - hopefully Rubricae, Tzaangor and perhaps a Rhino or Predator?

i was very worried about this edition to start with, but now I'm actually excited.

tneva82 wrote:
Umm that\s not exactly what you need power levels...Can be done just as well with normal points as well. Been doing that for like decade at least.

And now people can simply add things up using relatively small numbers and not worry about any implication that they should be compensating for every little option.

Power is just a points system that's honest about what it is accomplishing-- being a general guideline. I happen to think the regular points system for matched play will be pretending to give more balance than it does, but that's just based on how GW points systems have turned out for the last three decades, and what kind of indicator is that?

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Scorpion, at point blank range, focuses on the opponents eye piece, the soft articulation in a join, an exposed mechanism, pre existing damage, the inexplicably helmetless head, etc etc, and, with a thought, launches a metal spike into it, which instantly turns into a superheated bolt of gas. The odds of a Plasma Gun doing similar (or perhaps more accurately, the odds of it not doing this) are represented by its rend value.

In 30 years, there's never been a compelling reason to take Scorpions outside of fluff or personal preference, this may well change that. That it could have been done differently is a total non-argument that applies to literally every other rule in the game, and trying to cite fluff as a reason for crunch is equally shaky.

That explains nicely how that works for terminators(capable of surviving being stomped by titan), land raider and titan...NOT!

And that it can be done in ways that's appropriate for fluff is appropriate. You can have scorpions that are good for existing fluff! You don't need to redesign units. On that logic why not make assault marines into shooty unit that fires beams that make lascannon pale in comparison out of their pistols? Assault marines have sucked and it can be done while being balanced so no different from redesinging mandiblaster.

What is there to be gained by throwing existing fluff randomly out of window? Balance? Moot point since you can make scorpions balanced within existing fluff. You could even make them BROKENLY GOOD without varying from existing fluff...

You forgot to wave around your credentials first before that long rant.

Why shouldn't the Mandibles be unable to harm vehicles? Why are you ranting when you don't even know if they're even able to target said vehicles?

It works against Terminators for the same reasons Space Marines cost 13 ppm, for balance.

They are shooting plasma at 20cm from your face, really, is that hard to make the suspension of disbelief?

And even if not, is just game balance, nothing more.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On a much needed but OT tangent...hope we get a slew of new Start Collecting sets with the launch.

Thousand Sons - hopefully Rubricae, Tzaangor and perhaps a Rhino or Predator?

I would love that. Some of them can stay the same, but the Tzeentch one like that would be amazing. Don't they usually come with some sort of HQ/Hero though? So maybe a Rhino and a Sorcerer instead of a Predator?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Why shouldn't the Mandibles be unable to harm vehicles? Why are you ranting when you don't even know if they're even able to target said vehicles?

You can be sure they can hit vehicles.

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Scorpion, at point blank range, focuses on the opponents eye piece, the soft articulation in a join, an exposed mechanism, pre existing damage, the inexplicably helmetless head, etc etc, and, with a thought, launches a metal spike into it, which instantly turns into a superheated bolt of gas. The odds of a Plasma Gun doing similar (or perhaps more accurately, the odds of it not doing this) are represented by its rend value.

In 30 years, there's never been a compelling reason to take Scorpions outside of fluff or personal preference, this may well change that. That it could have been done differently is a total non-argument that applies to literally every other rule in the game, and trying to cite fluff as a reason for crunch is equally shaky.

That explains nicely how that works for terminators(capable of surviving being stomped by titan), land raider and titan...NOT!

I'm not sure where this 'capable of surviving a titan stomp' comes from. They were also designed as suits to wear in plasma reactors, but it doesn't mean they can reliably soak plasma shots.

Second, a precise high-damage weapon could certainly be used to deal some modicum of damage to an exposed joint on a titan's ankle or something similar. It just won't deal much damage, as it can only deal 1 wound out of a pool of 20+.

And that it can be done in ways that's appropriate for fluff is appropriate. You can have scorpions that are good for existing fluff! You don't need to redesign units. On that logic why not make assault marines into shooty unit that fires beams that make lascannon pale in comparison out of their pistols? Assault marines have sucked and it can be done while being balanced so no different from redesinging mandiblaster.

What is there to be gained by throwing existing fluff randomly out of window? Balance? Moot point since you can make scorpions balanced within existing fluff. You could even make them BROKENLY GOOD without varying from existing fluff...

The fluff argument is really not a very convincing one. Exactly how much damage a mandiblaster does is pretty firmly in my personal 'who cares' bucket.

Its perhaps pathetic but after two weeks of theorycraft I am getting a bit bored.

I just hope Dark Eldar get good rules and then preferably some good releases (Covens definitely seem signposted for a release based on the prominence in the art but that might be wishful thinking).

tneva82 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
The Scorpion, at point blank range, focuses on the opponents eye piece, the soft articulation in a join, an exposed mechanism, pre existing damage, the inexplicably helmetless head, etc etc, and, with a thought, launches a metal spike into it, which instantly turns into a superheated bolt of gas. The odds of a Plasma Gun doing similar (or perhaps more accurately, the odds of it not doing this) are represented by its rend value.

In 30 years, there's never been a compelling reason to take Scorpions outside of fluff or personal preference, this may well change that. That it could have been done differently is a total non-argument that applies to literally every other rule in the game, and trying to cite fluff as a reason for crunch is equally shaky.

That explains nicely how that works for terminators(capable of surviving being stomped by titan), land raider and titan...NOT!

Oh, do Terminators not have eyepieces? Are they completely lacking any sort of articulation and in reality just stand stock still, unable to move, content in the knowledge that nothing's getting through their elbow join or the back of the knee? Has the justification for troops assaulting vehicles targeting the rear AV not been that they're able to target weak points because they're up close for years?

And that it can be done in ways that's appropriate for fluff is appropriate. You can have scorpions that are good for existing fluff! You don't need to redesign units. On that logic why not make assault marines into shooty unit that fires beams that make lascannon pale in comparison out of their pistols? Assault marines have sucked and it can be done while being balanced so no different from redesinging mandiblaster.

What is there to be gained by throwing existing fluff randomly out of window? Balance? Moot point since you can make scorpions balanced within existing fluff. You could even make them BROKENLY GOOD without varying from existing fluff...

I find it perfectly acceptable in the context of the fluff for reasons already explained, that you don't speaks as much to your determination to argue that every single change is bad as much as anything.

Hey now...Striking Scorpions were a decent alternative to Banshee's in 2nd ed.

 Elbows wrote:
Hey now...Striking Scorpions were a decent alternative to Banshee's in 2nd ed.

Well, I guess I see scorpions as being good at tearing through a lot of weak or lightly armored infantry (with lots of shots from shuriken pistols and mandiblasters and chainswords to tear flesh). I see banshees as being good at taking out elite infantry, with power swords to go through better armor and banshee masks to reduce the effectiveness of a better opponent.

Yeah, in 2nd the trade off was minimal.

Scorpions had 1 better armour...Banshees had a better sword...Scorpions got a bonus attack at the start of a combat...Banshees (mostly) reduced opponents attacks...but Banshees were a point more expensive. It was a nice balance, and both felt just unique enough to be different. However, back then they were both great because the weapons had strength values - ignoring the model's strength, so an Eldar with a Strength 4 or Strength 5 close-combat weapon was good stuff.