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 frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.

seems like this might be slightly mitigated in 40k with the characters not being targetable. As long as the cast value for summoning is not too high I think it would be fine.

 Ratius wrote:
Does anyone really use books these days to build an army?
Ive been using armybuilder and battlescribe for years and cant imagine going back to books.
Build your army and print it with the associated costs/stats/rules.
Simples.

Haven't used any of those in years.

Vorian wrote:

Your point is generally that it's not automatic... well, no. You need to use tactics, sure.

At which point you get to summon what you need where you need it. You may not like it, but that doesn't change the fact it isn't useless.

No my point was that summoning needed a nerf, but that this new rule is not a great replacement. It has more disadvantages than advantages.

I never said it was useless. It's situationally useful sure, but then again what isn't?

 frozenwastes wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I'm sure it will depend on players, but for quick pick-up casual games I like the power idea because you can quickly put something together and don't need to have lists for every possible point value. So if I show up and a new guy only has what would amount to 750 points, we can just play power level and grab a quick and dirty game. Maybe using an unbalanced scenario like ambush etc. I also think it works really well for things like Apocalypse level games where granular points really don't matter it would be much faster to say each side gets 1000 points (or whatever) and go at it without costing out all the options for every unit.

I think it'll be really useful. It's definitely faster than the Age of Sigmar points because of the much, much lower numbers. I'm sure there are some superspecial individuals on here that will look down on people for finding single digit numbers faster than adding 120 + 80 + 170 until they get to 1500, but for the average person it's going to be way faster.

I think you're right about the apocalypse level games. As well as "bring and battle" type multiplayer events.

To me it is less the math being faster as the lack of options being lower. I don't have to think about if I have points for my melta gun, power fist, 6 models instead of 5 etc. So if I am playing 100 power I can simply find units that add up to close to that level. So if a rubric squad is 20 points for 10 models I can take 5 squads and call it a day without worrying about that the models I have are armed with warplamers or a soulreaper.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The summoning rules are (once again) right out of Age of Sigmar. They work except for one instance. When models summon other models are removed in the process. You have to pay for the full cost of the new model but don't get any discount for losing the model you sacrificed to summon it.

Question - in AoS can you pay for upgrades in the summoned unit?

IE, can you give rewards to a greater daemon you summoned if you pay the points?

In AoS none of the upgrades cost anything, so you just give the summoned unit whatever you want to off their warscroll.

I quite like the summoning rules, I've used them in AoS where you can use them to top units back up and recycle dead ones too although if you have to total points up you do run the risk of giving away more points than you brought! I had a unit of Ripperdactyls die twice in the game!

I'm not sure if that's how it'll work in 40k, but I imagine using power level it won't matter but going by matched play if you want upgrades you'll need the points put aside for them.

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

changemod wrote:
Points not being on the datasheet is an inconvenience for army building. In a physical book you'll need to flick back and forth repeatedly, whilst in a digital edition it's worse because of having to repeatedly find the two pages in question.

It also seems vaguely insulting that power levels -are- listed, like they're trying to push their new method harder.

I think it's more of an attempt to attract newer players who are less familiar with the game.

Or put another way, more directly supporting two out of the three new game types.

Besides, when was the last time you sat down and put together a list on paper? That's what the apps are for!

Ah, every time I play the game? I don't use any apps, they cost money, notepad on my computer is free.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

That is my take, yes

sturguard wrote:


Ah, every time I play the game? I don't use any apps, they cost money, notepad on my computer is free.

GW acquired scrollbuilder.com and is keeping it free.

 kronk wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

That is my take, yes

Sounds pretty cool. need more horde killing power why not flamers

i do wonder how that will work with necron scarabs

 EnTyme wrote:
I do like the concept of power levels. It'll really be useful when trying to introduce someone to the game. "Oh. You want an introductory game and brought a box of Tacticals, a Librarian, and a Rhino? That's about PL 200. I'll bring twenty Necron Warriors and five Immortals. That's about the same. No. Don't worry about weapon costs and bonus powers right now. We'll get to that next game."

Yea, but I definitely can see the noob saying, after the game, "WOW multi-melta is awesome! I'm putting that on ALL my marines next time!"

And we say "Not so fast, son..."

 JimOnMars wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I do like the concept of power levels. It'll really be useful when trying to introduce someone to the game. "Oh. You want an introductory game and brought a box of Tacticals, a Librarian, and a Rhino? That's about PL 200. I'll bring twenty Necron Warriors and five Immortals. That's about the same. No. Don't worry about weapon costs and bonus powers right now. We'll get to that next game."

Yea, but I definitely can see the noob saying, after the game, "WOW multi-melta is awesome! I'm putting that on ALL my marines next time!"

And we say "Not so fast, son..."

Well it would make a great way to get them into how to build for matched play.

I'm thinking that power levels might be the more go-to play method for casual play since they have missions designed around people playing via unbalanced Power Levels (wonder if Sanctuary 101 with Necrons and Sisters will get a faction specific mission like that).

Its almost like Power was for people who just showed up at the game store with the models they have on hand and just want to play a game(heaven forbid that you only have a multimelta model instead of a heavy bolter model because of points)

Points are for when you pre-plan your game and can make sure you have the right models ready to go.

I really like it. Makes pick up games easier while still allowing for you to tailor your list in advance.

 kronk wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

That is my take, yes

Which makes summoning the most versatile style of play actually. Your opponents will dictate what you need. If they are smart and sacrificed models are a thing then they could let you deduct the points of a summon from those sacrifices... Hmmmmm

Or they could allow units like Tyranids generate an "income" which we could call "Bio-Mass" and allow them to use that to deduct points from the summoning *cough* Birthing *cough* of baby guants

I feel like a good tactic for summoning in 8th edition is going to be along the lines of:
--Somehow deepstrike/outflank with the summoner and a unit of guys to guard him.
--Summon units either in that turn or next turn when you can get closer
--Pelt the back line with the guard units, summoner's psychic powers, and the new beasts you brought in unless you have MORE summoning to do.

This could even work by multiple units coming in the same way to summon a whole army on the back lines without the enemy expecting it/knowing what exactly is coming.

 Lysenis wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

In matched play, your points will be capped across the whole game. So if you’re planning to summon units to the battlefield, you will need to set points aside to do this. You won’t need to specify what the points will be for though, so this does leave you with your options open and if during the game, you decide that what you really need is a fast combat unit instead of a durable objective holder, you’ll be able to summon the right tool for the job, points permitting.

So you just set aside say 200 pts for summoning and decide to summon bloodletters on game 1, daemonettes on game 2, etc etc?

That is my take, yes

Which makes summoning the most versatile style of play actually. Your opponents will dictate what you need. If they are smart and sacrificed models are a thing then they could let you deduct the points of a summon from those sacrifices... Hmmmmm

Or they could allow units like Tyranids generate an "income" which we could call "Bio-Mass" and allow them to use that to deduct points from the summoning *cough* Birthing *cough* of baby guants

Someone else explained this earlier, but when it's an ability like the whole splits for Horrors it's not supposed to cost points.

I would imagine Gaunts brought in from Tervigons would be the same thing.

Units that generate models like the Tomb Spyder and Tervigon likely have that built into their costs. Unlike summoning in 7th these units also have built in limits to how many models thay can put on the table or can injure themselves by using their ability (doubles stops Tervigon frommspawning, Spyders hurt themselves on a D6 roll of a 1 iirc).

Now that may change, but a free unit or extra base or two of Scarabs from Nids and Crons is hardly as frustrating to deal with as the amount of models Daemon Summoning could bring forth in a single.

Plus units produced by other units (Scarabs and Tervigons at least) have no upgrades beyond adding bases to the table. Daemon summoning let you get a complete list of free upgrades without paying anything for the unit.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I feel like a good tactic for summoning in 8th edition is going to be along the lines of:
--Somehow deepstrike/outflank with the summoner and a unit of guys to guard him.
--Summon units either in that turn or next turn when you can get closer
--Pelt the back line with the guard units, summoner's psychic powers, and the new beasts you brought in unless you have MORE summoning to do.

This could even work by multiple units coming in the same way to summon a whole army on the back lines without the enemy expecting it/knowing what exactly is coming.

Sounds like how Daemons should work... Could be dangerous if an alpha strike happens though

 Kanluwen wrote:

Someone else explained this earlier, but when it's an ability like the whole splits for Horrors it's not supposed to cost points.

I would imagine Gaunts brought in from Tervigons would be the same thing.

?? Anything that creates a unit is a summon. Anything that replenishes a unit is not.

Daedalus81 wrote:

sturguard wrote:


Ah, every time I play the game? I don't use any apps, they cost money, notepad on my computer is free.

GW acquired scrollbuilder.com and is keeping it free.

Battlescribe is also free, but I use the books whenever I can. I'm faster with pen and paper than any app or ebook.

I'm a bit surpassed to see 13 point marines. I think I would have set them at 15 and used them as the benchmark for everything else.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Units that generate models like the Tomb Spyder and Tervigon likely have that built into their costs. Unlike summoning in 7th these units also have built in limits to how many models thay can put on the table or can injure themselves by using their ability (doubles stops Tervigon frommspawning, Spyders hurt themselves on a D6 roll of a 1 iirc).

Now that may change, but a free unit or extra base or two of Scarabs from Nids and Crons is hardly as frustrating to deal with as the amount of models Daemon Summoning could bring forth in a single.

Plus units produced by other units (Scarabs and Tervigons at least) have no upgrades beyond adding bases to the table. Daemon summoning let you get a complete list of free upgrades without paying anything for the unit.

I was just talking this over with someone earlier today. Our hopes are that either things like tervigons come with a squad or two already, or somehow act as regeneration units who continuously replenish existing squads around it with new units. Neither is summoning, it's just bolstering existing units.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Units that generate models like the Tomb Spyder and Tervigon likely have that built into their costs. Unlike summoning in 7th these units also have built in limits to how many models thay can put on the table or can injure themselves by using their ability (doubles stops Tervigon frommspawning, Spyders hurt themselves on a D6 roll of a 1 iirc).

Now that may change, but a free unit or extra base or two of Scarabs from Nids and Crons is hardly as frustrating to deal with as the amount of models Daemon Summoning could bring forth in a single.

Plus units produced by other units (Scarabs and Tervigons at least) have no upgrades beyond adding bases to the table. Daemon summoning let you get a complete list of free upgrades without paying anything for the unit.

I was just talking this over with someone earlier today. Our hopes are that either things like tervigons come with a squad or two already, or somehow act as regeneration units who continuously replenish existing squads around it with new units. Neither is summoning, it's just bolstering existing units.

I'd be happy if the Tetvigon turned into a Nid version of the Ghost Ark: can carry Tervigon units and replenish lost models to said units.

They strongly suggested on the fb page that 'free models' will no longer be a thing.

So it could be the end of the tervigon and the canoptek spyder as we know them :/

Zustiur wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

sturguard wrote:


Ah, every time I play the game? I don't use any apps, they cost money, notepad on my computer is free.

GW acquired scrollbuilder.com and is keeping it free.

Battlescribe is also free, but I use the books whenever I can. I'm faster with pen and paper than any app or ebook.

I'm a bit surpassed to see 13 point marines. I think I would have set them at 15 and used them as the benchmark for everything else.

From GW's perspective: if you're going to make things die faster and seemingly balance around 2000 points, you increase the cost of the weapons not the units themselves. That way you can have tons of infantry like they seem to want while having specialized units (this unit with the lascannon needs to move over here so I'll screen with my unit of bolters and plasma pistols).

Also if they dropped the price of a grav-pistol from 15 to 7 then a plasma pistol will most likely be around that too, giving us the first hint on why GW keeps telling us Berzerkers are now scary. Imagine if they took the 2 (4 with double on champ) plasma pistol max cap off Berzerkers with these lowered costs and gave their cheaper chainaxes AP -1. Top that off with the charge rules everyone knows they will get and I'm a happy camper. I think it's time to buy some more FW conversions...

zerosignal wrote:
They strongly suggested on the fb page that 'free models' will no longer be a thing.

So it could be the end of the tervigon and the canoptek spyder as we know them :/

or there could be new and exciting rules we know nothing about.

Requizen wrote:
I'm betting with 40k you'll have to work that out at the time of summoning, or will only summon in baseline units.

For the last half of 7th, I played an army with lots of summoning. In a RTT last weekend I summoned ~900 points in one game. I'm no stranger to summoning

The thing is that the summoned units were always vastly sub-par to those you could start with. 2 Greaters on a D-thirster and the Armor of Skorn make it incredibly more durable. Getting a 4+ FNP means it's nearly twice as hard to kill.

Plague drones with poisoned attacks are significantly more deadly than bare bones drones. An AP2 weapon on the champion drone increases their danger level significantly.

If a CSM character was ever 'lucky' enough to become a DP, he got killed nearly instantly because a DP with no upgrades is just horribad.

If I can summon with the required upgrades, I'm OK with that. It's a variable power pool that I can use to summon what's needed. "Oh, I can use a DP here. How about an exalted flamer there" That can be really useful, if they can be created in a way that is valuable.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Units that generate models like the Tomb Spyder and Tervigon likely have that built into their costs. Unlike summoning in 7th these units also have built in limits to how many models thay can put on the table or can injure themselves by using their ability (doubles stops Tervigon frommspawning, Spyders hurt themselves on a D6 roll of a 1 iirc).

Now that may change, but a free unit or extra base or two of Scarabs from Nids and Crons is hardly as frustrating to deal with as the amount of models Daemon Summoning could bring forth in a single.

Plus units produced by other units (Scarabs and Tervigons at least) have no upgrades beyond adding bases to the table. Daemon summoning let you get a complete list of free upgrades without paying anything for the unit.

I was just talking this over with someone earlier today. Our hopes are that either things like tervigons come with a squad or two already, or somehow act as regeneration units who continuously replenish existing squads around it with new units. Neither is summoning, it's just bolstering existing units.

I'd be happy if the Tetvigon turned into a Nid version of the Ghost Ark: can carry Tervigon units and replenish lost models to said units.

No matter what you call it, it is still free models. I don't have a problem either way if the model assumes a standard output and is costed accordingly. Some games you get more, some less, but we play a randomized game, so that's OK.

zerosignal wrote:
They strongly suggested on the fb page that 'free models' will no longer be a thing.

So it could be the end of the tervigon and the canoptek spyder as we know them :/

Well it could be a replenishing pool of models that you already bough being brought back to life.

its not really adding free models so suddenly a game isnt 2k vs 2k+100

but in the end returning dead models would be kinda the same thing so i dunno.

 Lysenis wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
They strongly suggested on the fb page that 'free models' will no longer be a thing.

So it could be the end of the tervigon and the canoptek spyder as we know them :/

or there could be new and exciting rules we know nothing about.

Oh, I'm sure there will be, but I'd put good money on that not involving putting units on the battlefield for free...

On account of them saying that, y'know, no more free units.

*coughs*

Daedalus81 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


My reading of what they wrote is that Multi-meltas are now the most expensive option on tactical squads. That could be inferring too much. If so Lascannons will be cheaper than multi-meltas. In general Multi-meltas benefit more from the new rules than lascannons do.

Just reread it and you're probably right. Good catch!

I don't think that's how they intended it to read. No way a Grav pistol is the cheapest upgrade, generally you can purchase things like melta bombs or a bolt gun or bolt pistol for a point. I also doubt a multi melta is the highest cost, a las canon is flat out better. They difference between S and AP is a wash and they both inflict the same damage, so the major difference is one has twice the range while the other does a more consistent level of damage at point blank. I would say range is the stronger perk here. Sure at 25% the range of a LC you get more consistent damage, but the las canon does on average more damage since it will have fired 3-4 times as many shots. I'll take a chance at 3-4 D6 damage over one go at 2D6 drop the lowest any day.

Zustiur wrote:
I'm a bit surpassed to see 13 point marines. I think I would have set them at 15 and used them as the benchmark for everything else.

I'd probably go with 1 point being equal to the smallest noticeable difference between two models. So if a guardsman is worth one and a third conscripts and a grot is half a guardsman, then one point is half a grot, one third of a conscript and so on. So, going by that standard, a new marine might be worth six and a half grots, which seems about right based on the new rules we've seen.

Of course, it's equally possible that they are basing these pretty closely on the old system and wanted to keep marine units about the same value. Since they upped the relative cost of heavy weapons, the price of the basic guy had to come down to keep the average points total constant.