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 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Doubtful. Given that they need a 6 to wound and the Drednought has a 3+ save it would take such an amount of Lasguns and Autopistols to wound a Drednought that any opponent doing this is wasting their firepower. Sure they may be able to take off a wound here and there, but honestly thinking that Drednoughts are going to die to small arms fire is very reactionary.

As for Melta. it won't die to 1, and should be able to survive 2 hits, a third hit however should see it reduced to molten metal.

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:
Hmmm. This is not good. We have already lost re-roll for Twin-linked, Re-roll strategem... this may mean a loss of common re-rolls. Given that the bolter that pierced the armor of the guardsmen, now it will be just an autogun with S4... And dreadnoughts still die from a two meltas... Sounds not good for SM.
It makes me think of a faction change. Maybe 'nids? Or powerfull eldar with lots of S6 dakka?

Yea, you have fun with that. Jump factions if that's what you think is going to happen. I happen to disagree.

Dreads can possibly die to two melta hits, if they both roll above or at average. That melta could do one wound, or two, etc. It's entirely dependent on how well your opponent rolls if they hit.

I like the proposed changes, to include boltguns allowing armor saves. It's more balanced that way in my opinion.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 BroodSpawn wrote:

OT: I do hope the more specialised FOC's don't give out too many CP's. I'd be a bit miffed if the Knights are running around with 5-10 CP's just for taking 4 models when the Marine player can't get that without paying through the nose, it'd feel a bit weighted unfairly then.

Judging by what's the article said, in fact the exact opposite of that is true. Armies with a wide variety of units and lots of troop choices have command points galore while the guy bringing three riptides barely has any. Indeed, maybe not any at all.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Doubtful. Given that they need a 6 to wound and the Drednought has a 3+ save it would take such an amount of Lasguns and Autopistols to wound a Drednought that any opponent doing this is wasting their firepower. Sure they may be able to take off a wound here and there, but honestly thinking that Drednoughts are going to die to small arms fire is very reactionary.

As for Melta. it won't die to 1, and should be able to survive 2 hits, a third hit however should see it reduced to molten metal.

And this did not improve the vitality of the dreadnoughts. 1-2 are melted - okay, but when they fly in 4-5 at a time - you will not feel any changes. I was hoping that the dreadnought would be a badass fighting machine worthy of the ancient one sitting in it. And what now, what in the future is a useless waste of points with crappy weaponry, low speed and poor armor. Yes, and -1 on to-hit if moved...

This ties in pretty nicely with the force org. article as having single, big detatchment is quite a bit better than having two smaller detachments. (Bonus CPs for bigger forces)
Given that you get 3 CPs for turning up, and another 3 for taking a batallion-scale detatchment, I think there will be enough CPs to not feel starved of CPs, but they still need to be used wisely in a normal-sized game.

The big clincher is re-rolls, they are cheap uses of CPs and will almost certainly be the most used stratagem.
Failed a 2+ roll? Missed a charge you expected to hit? Need some reserves this turn?
Cough up a CP and youre in buisiness.

Seito O wrote:
Since there will be only strategems in the codizes for the various factions ...yeah well.

Those who won´t get a codex soon, will have no faction specific ones.

There will be books covering all factions at launch. I wouldn't be surprised to see strategems in those.

Are we really back to the Lasgun/Land Raider stupidity again?

Alright, so far the edition is all about having the right tool for the right job. Shooting your lasguns and autopistols at a Land Raider, or Dreadnought as it were, is like hammering in a nail with a screwdriver. Sure you can do it, but it isn't the most effective tool to use for the job. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Doubtful. Given that they need a 6 to wound and the Drednought has a 3+ save it would take such an amount of Lasguns and Autopistols to wound a Drednought that any opponent doing this is wasting their firepower. Sure they may be able to take off a wound here and there, but honestly thinking that Drednoughts are going to die to small arms fire is very reactionary.

As for Melta. it won't die to 1, and should be able to survive 2 hits, a third hit however should see it reduced to molten metal.

And this did not improve the vitality of the dreadnoughts. 1-2 are melted - okay, but when they fly in 4-5 at a time - you will not feel any changes. I was hoping that the dreadnought would be a badass fighting machine worthy of the ancient one sitting in it. And what now, what in the future is a useless waste of points with crappy weaponry, low speed and poor armor. Yes, and -1 on to-hit if moved...

from the previews we now that a Multimelta costs 27pts, and a Space Marine costs 13pts. So 40pts for each Space Marine armed with a Multimela, I think the maximum allowed in a unit is 4, so 160pts. Which is dedicated anti-vehicle and monstrous creature, Yes they can kill a Dreadnought, but they are a very specialised unit, against a large unit of infantry they are going to find themselves struggling. Plus I imafine the Dreadnought can take longer ranged firepower that should whittle down the threat of such a unit.

I'm doubtful that a Dreadnought will cost 160pts, so it is fair that a unit that has invested so many points into doing one job and only one job very well can be a threat to large models in 40K.

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
This ties in pretty nicely with the force org. article as having single, big detatchment is quite a bit better than having two smaller detachments. (Bonus CPs for bigger forces)
Given that you get 3 CPs for turning up, and another 3 for taking a batallion-scale detatchment, I think there will be enough CPs to not feel starved of CPs, but they still need to be used wisely in a normal-sized game.

The big clincher is re-rolls, they are cheap uses of CPs and will almost certainly be the most used stratagem.
Failed a 2+ roll? Missed a charge you expected to hit? Need some reserves this turn?
Cough up a CP and youre in buisiness.

Agreed. One of my favorite things about Blood Bowl is the team re-rolls. You have a limited number for each half, so when a player flubs an important roll, you need to consider whether it's worth spending a valuable re-roll or just eating the turnover. The CP system looks like it's bringing that mechanic to 40k, plus expanding it to faction-specific benefits while encouraging balanced armies. That's all to the good in my book.

I like the Stratagem system. Every system that gives the player mone tactical choices and resource management at the same time that it reduces randomness (If you need THAT charge to sucess, you can reduce the randomness using a resource that you have planed to use in that situation and rerroll the charge if you fail, for example) is a good system to me.
Now, we have to see if the different Stratagems of different factions are balanced.

Killing Dreads was never a priority unless it was maybe standing on an Objective. Immobilizing them was all that was needed to make them combat ineffective.

That's gone now... just that alone makes Dreads so much better.

A bit underwhelmed, but that's an issue I've had with a lot of GW stuff lately - considering how well they're doing.

I hope there are more stratagems and better ones. I'm achingly tired of the super-lazy "re-roll" being about the only special rule that GW feels like doling out. This was terrible in 7th (where everyone ignores rules or re-rolls them) and may be just as bad in 8th. I refuse to believe that the design team can't do better. This is lazy game-making at its worst.

"Let's make this guy different..."
"He ignores X."
"Perfect."

"Let's make this unit different..."
"They re-roll X."
"Perfect."


It's the same piss poor lazy nonsense that lead to "it shall not cry" and "eternal blender". It's hard to take a rule set seriously when 50% of its additional rules, simply negate the main rules or ignore them. I was hoping for far better from GW going into 8th. I hope it's not a sign of more laziness to come. /rant

 BroodSpawn wrote:

OT: I do hope the more specialised FOC's don't give out too many CP's. I'd be a bit miffed if the Knights are running around with 5-10 CP's just for taking 4 models when the Marine player can't get that without paying through the nose, it'd feel a bit weighted unfairly then.

4 models, likelv 1000 pts or more. Think marines can gej 5-10 cp cheaper than that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Sturmgeschutz wrote:

 RandyMcStab wrote:
Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.

But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.

Doubtful. Given that they need a 6 to wound and the Drednought has a 3+ save it would take such an amount of Lasguns and Autopistols to wound a Drednought that any opponent doing this is wasting their firepower. Sure they may be able to take off a wound here and there, but honestly thinking that Drednoughts are going to die to small arms fire is very reactionary.

As for Melta. it won't die to 1, and should be able to survive 2 hits, a third hit however should see it reduced to molten metal.

2 hits basically is decided on wound rolls. Both wound and odds are dead dread. Dreads likely get toasted faster in 8th ed as heavy guns really toast them. Yeah scatter bikes have harder time but those aren"t all.

 zedsdead wrote:
Killing Dreads was never a priority unless it was maybe standing on an Objective. Immobilizing them was all that was needed to make them combat ineffective.

That's gone now... just that alone makes Dreads so much better.

Plus the fact that you simply cannot one shot them with most weapons. That by itself changes the complexion of the whole game quite a bit.

We've all had games where one side or the the other had some good dice on turn one and vaporized pretty much every vehicle on the board. Now players have to invest a more reasonable amount of shooting to kill armored targets. Sure, you can still roll well, but on a Dread that means 2-3 shots rather than 4-5, which is a huge upgrade from, "maybe just one shot". It also dramatically changes the impact of things like the scatter lasers that only do (I'd guess) one wound at a time in terms of their effectiveness in cleaning up even light and medium armor. IMO Light armor with moderate threat levels, like sentinels, just got a whole lot more survivable, just based on target priority for the first two turns in a game with moderate armor saturation.

Obviously units of melta-armed dudes will still vape most targets in one turn, but that sounds appropriate.

I wonder if we'll see a lot of what are currently re-rolls turned into "roll two dice and discard the lowest" in 8th? It has the advantage of being slightly faster, and the Command Re-Roll Stratagem can be stacked on top of it.

That would only work for rolls that you make one-at-a-time though, as it wouldn't work to roll handfuls of dice at once unless they were all color coded.

Light armored models are the ones that got it better with 8th. They are really hard to take down with small weapons at no less than T6 and 4+, while not being a worthy target for heavy stuff. The real counter would be the goold old mid strenght high ROF weapons, but i think we are not going to see a lot of those now.

The wording of the Counter Offensive strategem is pretty wierd, can anyone (preferably with AoS experience) explain what it is supposed to do? Seems wierd to be able to fight a unit somehow that already charged and had its combat resolved (what is the worth in that? Does it have to be another unit locked in the same combat?).

A bs 4 lascannon requires 4,5 shots to take down 7 wounds, which is probably sentinel and rhino level. Not really a good use for a lascannon platform for the whole game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
The wording of the Counter Offensive strategem is pretty wierd, can anyone (preferably with AoS experience) explain what it is supposed to do? Seems wierd to be able to fight a unit somehow that already charged and had its combat resolved (what is the worth in that? Does it have to be another unit locked in the same combat?).

It is used only when you are charged by multiple units. Usually, all those units would be able to attack before you do, with the stratagem only one attacks, then you can choose one unit to fight before the other charging attackers are resolved.

tneva82 wrote:


2 hits basically is decided on wound rolls. Both wound and odds are dead dread. Dreads likely get toasted faster in 8th ed as heavy guns really toast them. Yeah scatter bikes have harder time but those aren"t all.

It's 4/6 to wound (previous odds to wound was 30/36 and to glance was 33/36). Plus their save. Plus it's a 30% chance to roll enough wounds.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I wonder if we'll see a lot of what are currently re-rolls turned into "roll two dice and discard the lowest" in 8th? It has the advantage of being slightly faster, and the Command Re-Roll Stratagem can be stacked on top of it.

That would only work for rolls that you make one-at-a-time though, as it wouldn't work to roll handfuls of dice at once unless they were all color coded.

Umm for one at a time no difference. At least all i know roll 2 dices for rerollable throws. Faster

 Elbows wrote:
A bit underwhelmed, but that's an issue I've had with a lot of GW stuff lately - considering how well they're doing.

I hope there are more stratagems and better ones.

As the game plays on, you can use these Command Points to activate a variety of Stratagems. Many of these will be specific to certain missions or factions

Actually reading the article helps.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
A bit underwhelmed, but that's an issue I've had with a lot of GW stuff lately - considering how well they're doing.

I hope there are more stratagems and better ones.

As the game plays on, you can use these Command Points to activate a variety of Stratagems. Many of these will be specific to certain missions or factions

Actually reading the article helps.

Doesn't say anything about are they more interesting op more rerolls

So as they have said, the unit that charged that turn gets to go first.

So the person whose turn it is might have three units charge. So they get to have one unit attack, then they have their second unit attack. At this point someone might use command points to interrupt and have one of their units attack before the third charging unit goes.

After that it is alternating activation's for all units that did not charge that turn.

So it is actually insanely powerful if they dont pick the right unit to attack with first you might be able to use your command points to wipe out a unit that charged before they get to swing.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
The wording of the Counter Offensive strategem is pretty wierd, can anyone (preferably with AoS experience) explain what it is supposed to do? Seems wierd to be able to fight a unit somehow that already charged and had its combat resolved (what is the worth in that? Does it have to be another unit locked in the same combat?).

Say your opponent charges with 4 units in their turn. Normally in the Fight phase they would get to attack first with those 4 units, then both players take it in turns to attack with any other units in a combat.

With that stratagem, your opponent is only guaranteed to attack first with 1 unit. If you use it, you can strike before units 2/3/4 & likely weaken them before they hit you.

It makes being strategic about when to charge with certain units a factor.

So people are underwhelmed from a teaser/preview? I mean you know this is not all they are showing right? My god us nerds/geeks are a shameful folk. First we complain GW doesn't show previews and now they do, we complain or lamblast them for doing so. They are teasers/previews so of course they are not going to show all of them. So why complain and say they are lacking? I just don't get it.

Like why not wait and say they are underwhelming until we know the bigger picture? Then we can actually say they are underwhelming and why. To say they are underwhelming and not give an excuse is just giving us nerds and geeks a bad name and proving Kirby was right about us all along.

These stratagems seem good and I can't wait to see the others that will be available for different factions. Could quite possibly make it worthwhile to take one of those bigger detachments full of troops and what-not.

Regarding dreadnoughts and other similar units, at least my feeling is that vehicles seem to be much stronger in the New Edition. They might be taken down with dedicated anti tank weaponry, but are much harder to take out with other weapons. Meaning that heavy weaponry will be very valuable and this seems to be taken into account as multi melta is so expensive. Especially those Light vehicles that used to be very easilly killed might be quite annoying if they have 5-6 wounds with 4+ save. Especially if they'll have some hit modifier causing jinking rule.

For tyranids, if they tie the stratagems with the synapse, i'm a happy bug player.

Can you imagine? Shadow in the warp (1 CP) : You can use this stratagem when an enemy psyker tries to manifest a power while within 18" of a model with the synapse keyword, before he rolls the dice. The psyker suffers a penalty of -3 to the roll to manifest that single power.

Spoletta wrote:
For tyranids, if they tie the stratagems with the synapse, i'm a happy bug player.

Can you imagine? Shadow in the warp (1 CP) : You can use this stratagem when an enemy psyker tries to manifest a power while within 18" of a model with the synapse keyword, before he rolls the dice. The psyker suffers a penalty of -3 to the roll to manifest that single power.

That's a freaking great idea!