40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Red Corsair**

Lobukia wrote:
Until I'm told old marines are gone... and I can't believe that will ever happen... the NuMarines are just Chosen for the Chapters that can be MSU Troops. No biggy. Haopy to have them... great for holding down a vital objective

I hope your right, but I am not so sure. Time will tell of course.

I realized why I am not as big a fan of the new guys as the old BTW, not that anyone should care too much

, they remind me of Ironman way too much. It's actually the reason I find the newer tacticals kind of meh, and have been leaning toward the heresy marks. The newer crap is way to techy looking and clean for my liking. I like me some grimdark marines (as much as I think Ironman is cool). All the chip insets and modern lines makes them look too scifi and not enough of space knights.

**frozenwastes**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Finally get a plastic Death Guard release and they're all Mega-Marines?

It's great, isn't it?

Accolade wrote:The old scale is dead.

oni wrote:To me, it's clear as day that GW intends on phasing out the Space Marines line in favor of the new hotness; Primaris Space Marines.

I believe it's foolish to assume that GW intends on continuing with the existing Space Marines line. I fully believe that we'll only see new releases for the Primaris Space Marines from here on out - Space Marines will be left to languish.

We've even now seen a larger Nurgle Chaos Space Marine. The writing is on the wall.

I think you are both right. They are finally bringing the vision of space marines as being towering super humans into their model design. Their way of rolling it out though has put them in a no win situation. Either they invalidated the existing marines directly or did some strange thing where they have them alongside one another. They chose the method that let's people continue playing with their existing models as a separate thing while they roll out the new ones.

I don't mind change, but damn... As has been mentioned this isn't simply scale creep. This is a full on undermining of the narrative, a full on subversion of hobbyists entire model collections.

Can you tell I'm a little upset? I think I finally have a full understanding and appreciation for what the WFB players went through with the whole AoS change.

I'm the opposite. I've always been disappointed by the existing marine miniatures. I'm willing to take some strange monkeying with the fiction to get the new marines while still not invalidating the armies of the old ones rules wise so people can play them in a familiar way with a familiar stat line on day one.

I think you are probably right though, that there are likely going to be no new releases in the existing marine scales. That from here on out they'll go through the various ways marines are equipped but in new Primaris forms. We've already seen pictures of plasma guns and talk of dreadnoughts and vehicles. I'd imagine within a couple of years there will be very few things not covered in the new scale and we'll start to see existing marine kits taken out of production as their replacements are phased in.

**sturguard**

You're vastly over estimating how strong those big guys are. In fact very few top tournament tables are rolling large models right now.

I find that hard to believe, especially in the case of Sigmarines.

**Lobokai**

@Sturguard... I've been around just as long and I'm not worried a bit. I still have the old blue and red plastic marines on sprue and everything except Orks, IH. and GK in my sig is painted... heck I've hot all three "wing" companies of the DA table ready at half strength or better (50+ marines) and then entire first and second companies of the ultramarines... I'm confident they'll be on the table 20 years from now.

And objectively, as someone who has played dozens of wargames and taught most of them to others... I want 30k to convert to 8E rules ASAP. I'm at a loss as to what is better in the old system

**Daedalus81**

Q: Greeting GW PR team,

This has been the best PR campaigns in wargaming I have ever seen so well done. It does have a downside as we only see small elements at a time and it is a very hard system balance of point, counter point to keep everyone happy with what articles are released and what concerns are alleviated.

So far between the factions focuses and preview articles the game is feeling even more weighted in favor of shooting than what we have seen in 6th and 7th. We have had the Fight Phase preview but that article really just let us know it will play similar to AoS giving the community a more strategic improvement to the close combat phase. Between the PR replies and the article we keep getting the "get excited because close combat is great" reply. Unfortunately we have not gotten a solid preview how this is true.

The example that was used is Guardsman vs Khorne Berserkers but most of the time the Guardsman win this fight in the last few editions. This was due to three game elements Area of Influence, Combat Effectiveness and pointing of models being made without taking into account of the last two elements.

Area of Influence - the area that takes into account the mobility and weapon's range of engagement. This is obviously in favor of fast units and ranged focused units.

Combat Effectiveness - This is the threshold of a unit to still make a meaningful impact related to combat on the battlefield. It takes into account many factors including Area of Influence. Again ranged units normally maintain combat effectiveness longer than non deathstar close combat specialist.

Non deathstar units normally take damage on their approach as well as in the close combat phase. Leaving a unit like Khorne Berserkers at reduced strength by the time they are able the are able to engage an enemy. If the close combat specialist win their combat now they repeat this process but generally reach the threshold of combat ineffective at a faster rate then most ranged units.

The community would really like to see a some articles on how close combat has improved. Try to cover these items and more if possible.

- The Pistol information was nice but do they still offer a plus 1 attack in close combat, as I'm not sure if that was covered?
- The moral check system is going to be very rough for close combat units taking tests on the way in and most likely from close combat. Is there a rule that helps protect the victor of close combat from taking a moral test? YAY we just won this fight but Bob died so more of us get to die.
- How fast can units get into combat from reserves and disembarking transports? PS: Please include this info in tomorrow's post.
- A more extensive look at weapons and abilities close combat specialist have to help turn the tide of battle.
- Give us some detailed examples on match ups example Guardsman vs Khorne Berserkers. How have things changed for close combat specialist and are Guardsman and their equivalent now hitting in melee on something like a 5+?
- Has there been anything done to help out melee infantry advancing across the battlefield? Currently it is better to take units that will fit inside transports over running a 20 man Khorne Berserkers or Crusader squads. Cheap horde units are nice looking at you Ork boys but in games that are time bound horde armies are not reasonable. I do miss my 230 model green tide but it just takes to long to play.

Thanks for your hard work and the community would love to know why and how close combat had improved with 8th.

Now that's how you ask a question!

**EmberlordofFire8**

I WILL NOW OFFICALY NAME THE NEW MARINES SPACECASTS. THAT NAME SHALL BE USED FROM NOW ON!

**Red Corsair**

@frozenwastes

I'd argue the new method is far worse in the long term. With two styles of marine in the lore and rules they wrote themselves into a box. Now, one must eventually phase out, the old. Since they have different stats and gear, you can hardly get away with using old marines as a stand in. Had they simply up scaled the kits moving forward, it would be as innocent as seeing older marine models like rogue trader beakies today.

**JohnU**

My metal dreads will always have a place. If not on my table than at least in my socks.

**BrotherGecko**

Daedalus81 wrote:
oni wrote:

Exactly!

To me, it's clear as day that GW intends on phasing out the Space Marines line in favor of the new hotness; Primaris Space Marines. All we have to do is read between the lines; look past their carefully crafted words. It's all right there in the FAQ.

...you’ve seen the Intercessors, ..., but there are plenty more on the way. And ...vehicles too
...some Chapters, ..., now have entire companies of these new warriors.
Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into existing Battle Companies.
...entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
Any ... Chapters can use Primaris Space Marines...

I believe it's foolish to assume that GW intends on continuing with the existing Space Marines line. I fully believe that we'll only see new releases for the Primaris Space Marines from here on out - Space Marines will be left to languish.

We've even now seen a larger Nurgle Chaos Space Marine. The writing is on the wall.

I don't mind change, but damn... As has been mentioned this isn't simply scale creep. This is a full on undermining of the narrative, a full on subversion of hobbyists entire model collections.

Can you tell I'm a little upset? I think I finally have a full understanding and appreciation for what the WFB players went through with the whole AoS change.

I would say most of us are quite aware of what is happening.

They aren't terminating the molds. They haven't written the old out. It doesn't subvert the collection. People will indicate their interest with their wallets and numarines will likely be the winner. Then 6-8 years from now they'll fade them out in the story and very few people will care, because most everyone will have newer models.

Do you still see tons of metal models on the table? Where are those complaints?

You are a very optimistic person (a good quality) but there is no way old space marines are making it past 2 years. Why would GW even bother producing models that people are not going to be buying? The shelf life of old space marines will be equal to the rate in which new marines can be produced. I think its going to be barely more than a year before old space marines are taking up a tiny portion of store space and you have to order most stuff in store to get them. But that is me.

Reboots are super in right now to appeal to new audiences. Space Marines just got their first reboot since.. Rogue Trader I believe.

**Daedalus81**

Weird forum stuff....

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I'll spare people another rant against these new marines. I done that yesterday, and you know where I stand on the new marine/bolt rifle issue.

What I wanted to say was this: I don't often give credit to GW, but that leaked plague marine photo gets a big thumbs up from me.

Why? Because a few years back, I had to paint up the Dark Vengeance box set for a younger family member who got it at Xmas.

And those Chaos Chosen were absolutely (insert swear word here) awful to paint.

Some of the worst models I've ever had to paint. Way too much detail and clutter on them.

This new plague marine looks good and isn't drowned out by too much detail.

Good on you GW. Saved me a lot of potential hassle in the future.

**sturguard**

7th edition isnt as bad as you make it sound- if you play with the base rules, get rid of formations, army bonuses and all the other junk GW added on as they went.

If you think this time GW isnt going to break the system with different detachment bonuses, stratagem bonuses and other army specific bonuses as they create paid for content I think you are giving them too much credit. Just because they say they are New GW doesn't mean anything, they were new GW 5 months ago when they were creating formation after formation and selling book after book knowing they were going to invalidate this stuff just months down the road. The one thing you can bet on with GW (and any business- and this isn't a bad or good thing) is that they are looking to make a profit above all else. In general we all spout off about balance, but our actions don't speak volumes. When a broken codex comes out, everyone buys it, people switch armies, they don't care. Look at custodes in 30k, people are eating them up as fast as they can be produced and it isnt because of the models.

**Lobokai**

I can't see the ITC ever saying old marines can't count as NuMarines if a full phase out ever happens

**Red Corsair**

New marines also gives them an opportunity to consolidate marines into one book sort of like stormcasts have now. Think of the SKU space they free up by removing the independent marine kits like BA, DA, and SW and simply making new units everyone can share. Just paint them in your old faction colors and heraldry. I mean it is really hard for GW to justify special snowflake kits for wold guard, death wing and even BA termies PLUS the standard kits.

**Daedalus81**

sturguard wrote:
I find that hard to believe, especially in the case of Sigmarines.

http://baddice.co.uk/scgt-winning-list-aos-daily-66/

That's the 2017 SCGT winning list as cheesy as it is currently. Not a single model over 6ish wounds.

Sigmarines are taking the Celestant on Dracoth. The Star Drake is pretty rare.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

frozenwastes wrote:
I think you are both right. They are finally bringing the vision of space marines as being towering super humans into their model design. Their way of rolling it out though has put them in a no win situation. Either they invalidated the existing marines directly or did some strange thing where they have them alongside one another. They chose the method that let's people continue playing with their existing models as a separate thing while they roll out the new ones.

I do wonder if they'd just silently up scaled them if the reaction would be any better. If they're the same height as the last few chaos releases I'll at least be picking up the chaos rule book when it comes out to consider picking some up if they aren't going to immediately be towered over by the new imperial hotness.

**BrotherGecko**

Lobukia wrote:
I can't see the ITC ever saying old marines can't count as NuMarines if a full phase out ever happens

We will get a little fluff blurb in a book where new marines have had to wear retrofitted older mark armor because of terrible event. Then bam, old marines become new marines.

**nintura**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'll spare people another rant against these new marines. I done that yesterday, and you know where I stand on the new marine/bolt rifle issue.

What I wanted to say was this: I don't often give credit to GW, but that leaked plague marine photo gets a big thumbs up from me.

Why? Because a few years back, I had to paint up the Dark Vengeance box set for a younger family member who got it at Xmas.

And those Chaos Chosen were absolutely (insert swear word here) awful to paint.

Some of the worst models I've ever had to paint. Way too much detail and clutter on them.

This new plague marine looks good and isn't drowned out by too much detail.

Good on you GW. Saved me a lot of potential hassle in the future.

I disagree 100% on the dark vengeance mini's. They are some of the best sculpts I've ever painted and by no means have too much detail. I consider myself a pretty decent painter with a brush, and there are companies out there that I couldn't even differentiate the detail because it was so fine and so cluttered.

**Red Corsair**

Lobukia wrote:
I can't see the ITC ever saying old marines can't count as NuMarines if a full phase out ever happens

That's nice for the minority of games that play 100% by the ITC standard. Most ITC games I have played haven't used their entire FAQ or missions.

**Daedalus81**

BrotherGecko wrote:

You are a very optimistic person (a good quality) but there is no way old space marines are making it past 2 years. Why would GW even bother producing models that people are not going to be buying? The shelf life of old space marines will be equal to the rate in which new marines can be produced. I think its going to be barely more than a year before old space marines are taking up a tiny portion of store space and you have to order most stuff in store to get them. But that is me.

Reboots are super in right now to appeal to new audiences. Space Marines just got their first reboot since.. Rogue Trader I believe.

Thank you for the kind words.

With the new GW setup they don't need to occupy store shelves to make them available. You're right that in probably a bit over 2 years they'll be gone from stores, but still at the webstore. Once they've reached a critical mass of kits to replace enough they might make a fluff move to explain everything.

**warboss**

oni wrote:
Exactly!

To me, it's clear as day that GW intends on phasing out the Space Marines line in favor of the new hotness; Primaris Space Marines. All we have to do is read between the lines; look past their carefully crafted words. It's all right there in the FAQ.

...you’ve seen the Intercessors, ..., but there are plenty more on the way. And ...vehicles too
...some Chapters, ..., now have entire companies of these new warriors.
Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into existing Battle Companies.
...entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
Any ... Chapters can use Primaris Space Marines...

I believe it's foolish to assume that GW intends on continuing with the existing Space Marines line. I fully believe that we'll only see new releases for the Primaris Space Marines from here on out - Space Marines will be left to languish.

We've even now seen a larger Nurgle Chaos Space Marine. The writing is on the wall.

I don't mind change, but damn... As has been mentioned this isn't simply scale creep. This is a full on undermining of the narrative, a full on subversion of hobbyists entire model collections.

Can you tell I'm a little upset? I think I finally have a full understanding and appreciation for what the WFB players went through with the whole AoS change.

If it were just a model scale/asthetics change and a moderate fluff change (new Mk X armor and new pattern bolter!), I'd be fine with it. It's the fluff replacement of Adeptus Astartes with Adeptus Restartes that bothers me the most as it was unnecessary. I've dealt with the switch from monopose 2nd edition plastics and hybrid plastic/metals to 3rd edition omnimarine kit to specialized class plastic kits (like all plastic devs) to specialized variants for each chapter.. and I didn't bat an eyelash at any of them (and most I applauded at the time regardless if my own models were being replaced). Changing the fluff to officially make the original marines like an Iphone 4 in an 6S universe was completely unnecessary. If they wanted to improve marine stats to something more akin to what the fluff says, I'd have applauded that as well if they just grandfathered all marines in at the same time instead of downgrading the ones we already had.

Anyone who doesn't think that this isn't the end of original marine development in favor of numarines is kidding themselves. How many new knightly orders, the previous elite followers of sigmar, has the empire, the supposed land of sigmar, faction gotten since the sigmarines came out? Ten years from now, pure old marines will be about as comprehensively supported as the SOB have been since 3rd edition. That said, I'm simply *poof* making my old marines turn into numarines with a wave of my hand. If the rules say that you must use 32mm bases for numarines then I'll jury rig a conversion.

**lessthanjeff**

If they do phase out the old marines, I'd be fine with it as long as we can still use the old models to represent the new ones. After all, the new stat line is more representative of what the fluff builds space marines up to be. As long as they have an appropriate cost so that they're balanced in the game I think it would make standard infantry a lot more fun to play for space marines.

I can't imagine them saying the old models would ever be unusable either. They've never done that for the scale of old products in the past. I still have my old metal csm dreadnoughts, for example, or look at the old rhino/land raider and lord of change/bloodthirster. They have lots of outdated sizes but people still allow them in games.

**Red Corsair**

nintura wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'll spare people another rant against these new marines. I done that yesterday, and you know where I stand on the new marine/bolt rifle issue.

What I wanted to say was this: I don't often give credit to GW, but that leaked plague marine photo gets a big thumbs up from me.

Why? Because a few years back, I had to paint up the Dark Vengeance box set for a younger family member who got it at Xmas.

And those Chaos Chosen were absolutely (insert swear word here) awful to paint.

Some of the worst models I've ever had to paint. Way too much detail and clutter on them.

This new plague marine looks good and isn't drowned out by too much detail.

Good on you GW. Saved me a lot of potential hassle in the future.

I disagree 100% on the dark vengeance mini's. They are some of the best sculpts I've ever painted and by no means have too much detail. I consider myself a pretty decent painter with a brush, and there are companies out there that I couldn't even differentiate the detail because it was so fine and so cluttered.

Not disagreeing with you but just something you may not have considered is how hard such a cluttered model is for an average or worse painter. You said yourself your a decent painter, a decent painter can have fun painting almost anything. I have known more then a few less then great painters that get overwhelmed or struggle with those guys.

**JohnHwangDD**

sturguard wrote:
7th edition isnt as bad as you make it sound- if you play with the base rules, get rid of formations, army bonuses and all the other junk GW added on as they went.

At that rate, one should just play 5th. Or even OOTB 3rd.

**Desubot**

oni wrote:

All we have to do is read between the lines; look past their carefully crafted words. It's all right there in the FAQ.

Careful how deep you gaze into the void

it might just gaze back.

not that i dont mind some cynicism i find it funny and probably partially or totally true.

as to the phase out its probably not going to happen in a LONG time.

**BrotherGecko**

Daedalus81 wrote:
BrotherGecko wrote:

You are a very optimistic person (a good quality) but there is no way old space marines are making it past 2 years. Why would GW even bother producing models that people are not going to be buying? The shelf life of old space marines will be equal to the rate in which new marines can be produced. I think its going to be barely more than a year before old space marines are taking up a tiny portion of store space and you have to order most stuff in store to get them. But that is me.

Reboots are super in right now to appeal to new audiences. Space Marines just got their first reboot since.. Rogue Trader I believe.

Thank you for the kind words.

With the new GW setup they don't need to occupy store shelves to make them available. You're right that in probably a bit over 2 years they'll be gone from stores, but still at the webstore. Once they've reached a critical mass of kits to replace enough they might make a fluff move to explain everything.

I think they will just turn old marines into new marines at some point. We will all be left scratching our heads wondering why they even bothered in the first place.

Oooooooor, Papa Nurgle finally concocts a plague that kills Astartes but Primaris are immune. Almost all Astartes are dead in 40k and long live the Primaris.

**nintura**

Spoiler:

Not disagreeing with you but just something you may not have considered is how hard such a cluttered model is for an average or worse painter. You said yourself your a decent painter, a decent painter can have fun painting almost anything. I have known more then a few less then great painters that get overwhelmed or struggle with those guys.

I'm not 100% disagreeing here, but being a decent painter has nothing to do with your skill level as much as it does patience. That's what makes someone decent. I actually found that marine I painted fully to be quite easy. Base coat, dry brush, pick out the gold, wash the gold. Drybrush the demon heads, paint the eyes, pick out the weapons and gear. Finish with 2 coats of Pledge Floor care and done. All in all I think that model took about a day to paint solo. Now I wont lie, the warlord was a different story. Not so much because he had too much detail, but because the detail he had was so weird and unlike anything in the chaos army. Different angles and objects and such.

**warboss**

BrotherGecko wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
I would say most of us are quite aware of what is happening.

They aren't terminating the molds. They haven't written the old out. It doesn't subvert the collection. People will indicate their interest with their wallets and numarines will likely be the winner. Then 6-8 years from now they'll fade them out in the story and very few people will care, because most everyone will have newer models.

Do you still see tons of metal models on the table? Where are those complaints?

You are a very optimistic person (a good quality) but there is no way old space marines are making it past 2 years. Why would GW even bother producing models that people are not going to be buying? The shelf life of old space marines will be equal to the rate in which new marines can be produced. I think its going to be barely more than a year before old space marines are taking up a tiny portion of store space and you have to order most stuff in store to get them. But that is me.

Reboots are super in right now to appeal to new audiences. Space Marines just got their first reboot since.. Rogue Trader I believe.

You are correct in that they aren't going to go out and destroy existing stocks of 50+ marine kits nor get rid of the expensive molds. What I suspect will happen is that as Adeptus Restarted Devastators get released then they'll retire Oldstartes Devs to direct order/online only. Stores will no longer be required to stock it and at the lower discount financially discouraged to do so voluntarily as well. Players will still be ostensibly able to get them direct from GW (where they get the highest margin) if they go through the extra effort but most new or growing players will switch to the new hotness. As the demand and supplies both dry up, restocks will be less frequent and the item will probably go out of stock/unavaible for periods of time as GW prioritizes making new kits on their limited number of plastic extrusion machinery and just fit in the older kits inbetween. Eventually even steel molds wear out and won't be replaced (probably in 5-10 years). SInce numarine devs will already be out for years and likely outselling them by a large margin due to the ubiquity of the former and the direct only nature of the latter, redoing the expensive mold won't make sense. And then that Oldstartes marine kit will well and truly be out of print never to see a revision again other than maybe a token half hearted rules release ala SOB. Rinse, lather, repeat for equivalent Oldstartes plastics as each new numarine plastic kit is released. I'd expect the drop off for finecast/resin models to be much more precipitous.

**Red Corsair**

Desubot wrote:
oni wrote:

All we have to do is read between the lines; look past their carefully crafted words. It's all right there in the FAQ.

Careful how deep you gaze into the void

it might just gaze back.

not that i dont mind some cynicism i find it funny and probably partially or totally true.

as to the phase out its probably not going to happen in a LONG time.

Nah, I have been saying it for a few years now and as recent as the Numarine thread. GW has finite resources and shelf space. It's a supply side issue they cl;early were about to run ito with the increased release schedule. No way an in house production like theres can maintain the amount of SKU's they have now and continue to support old while making new. The heaviest burden BY FAR are marines. Sure they are a bread winner, but there is no reason to make a vanilla tac squad, a blood angle tac squad, a sw tac squad (GH's are basically that) and repeat that process for terminators etc etc. You also have the added issue with that design, that when something is released for SW only, think TWC, you are not selling it to all the other marines players. Now imagine 1/3 or less kits for everyone to share and every time you make a special snowflake unit like centurians, not only will there be no jealous complaining but you get to sell it to everyone.... \

As a company decision it makes the most sense and I imagine it will happen faster then most expect. Think less then the lifespan of 8th quick.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

@nintura That's a good paint job.

The Chosen were just too fiddly for me to paint, and I consider myself a decent painter, but I was losing the will to live when painting the chosen.

The Cultists on the other hand were a joy and full of character, so much so, I bought more to use in other games systems.

Space Marines have always been fun to paint, and ironically, even though I don't like the rules for the new marines, I think they'd be good fun to paint, even more so that the old, because of their bigger scale and sleek lines.