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 Latro_ wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...

well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does

We know almost everything about BA: http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/tau-bloody-angels-space-marine-leaks/

Black Rage is...OK. gives +1 attack when they charge the preceding assault phase and a 6+ FnP against failed wounds. The match up between Berzerkers and Death Company is really just going to come down to who charges first (swings first) and how your DC are equipped. I mean you can equip them pretty cheap with anything other than a fist for either 4-5 points. With 4-5 power weapons, your probably going to wipe a 10 man squad anyways. Then, If you got a Sang priest nearby you get your +1 str, which is all you need in this new edition. unless you can get to double str over their toughness, your wounding on 3's anyways. Theres lots of buffs our HQs give out from re-rolls to hit, extra attacks, +1 str,

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Yeah we do! It's +1A on the charge and an additional 6+ save against any wound taken (not just that one round, any time).

Huh. So I started some mathammering. It's kind of wacky, the chainsword and Chainaxe options come out identically at 4.36 W against MEQ targets (not accounting for DttFE). The Axe is a little better against TEQ, It makes me wonder if I didn't carry a zero or something though. (That's for one round of combat from 10 Berzerkers, no other upgrades or whatnot).

Even wackier. The DC, with chainswords on the charge, do the exact same damage to MEQ targets in that one round of combat. So the difference is the Berserkers entire extra round of combat. I guess we know who wins that comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, the DC have way more buffs they can stack on.

Also bear in mind that the Berzerkers have to activate twice. If they die before the second one, they lose those attacks.

gungo wrote:
there was several detachments with multiple waaaghs however greentide was the most useful however I played the ghaz council w the horde detachment which also had multiple waaghs regardless the point was in both detachments orks were still to slow to win the objective game. Lowering our movement doesn't help. And this edition still pushes orks into a 30 model horde build and is worse then we were.

You. Do. Not. Take. Casualties. From. The. Front. Of. The. Unit. Anymore.

Seriously. That one change makes charging and moving across the board way easier, you can also clump your models up because there's no blast markers in the game anymore either. If anything, it's EASIER to get into combat than before.

You're forgetting something very important. Green Tide was 100 models in a single unit that was reliant on two super important characters to keep it moving. The moment the Warboss got sniped out, the entire unit became susceptible to the previously god awful Mob Rule, and losing the Painboy cut the durability of the unit down considerably.

Now, a 6+ armor save is nowhere near as worthless as it used to be, Kustom Force Fields extend to entire units and not just models, the 6+ from a Painboy works all the time and can't be denied, Mob Rule doesn't screw over big units like it used to, etc. Instead of one 100 model unit that could be focused down and had to deal with the old "take casualties from the front" rules, you can instead spread out your models between separate units meaning your opponent can't simply overkill the one unit anymore. If you consider that your units will take casualties, losing out on 1" of Movement is actually fully made up for by not losing casualties from the front.

Struggling to capture objectives with a full foot-slogging army...wow, what a surprise that is. It's almost like you're supposed to take a combined arms force with both slow hard-hitters and fast objective takers? Hordes fill the former role, Trukk Boyz fill the latter role. Horde Boyz don't worry about Morale and have amazing damage but cross the board slower than Trukk Boyz who have a Trukk to help deny Overwatch. However, a Trukk is now worth something like 12-15 Boyz once you account for its weapons (but not other upgrades) as opposed to just 6.

You lost out on a specific formation which was unwieldy as hell and leaned on two gimmick characters. Now, your hordes are far more self-sufficient with the new Mob Rule and still get mega benefits from nearby characters that buff units in a radius rather than just the one they are attached to.

They are better off than they were. Full stop.
Also, fun fact....Shoota Boyz can run and shoot their Shootas at 6s to-hit and still charge...fancy that. And Slugga Boyz can shoot their Sluggas in combat, essentially giving them a permanent 4th attack that they would lose out on in the previous rules after the turn they charged.

 Galas wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?

Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.

I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.

Jesus, horrors suck.

DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.

changemod wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Wtf?!
By the looks of that pic, the Monolith appears to be almost 400 points.
Surely I'm misreading that very blurry text (after all, it also looks as if Immortals are... 8 points? That can't be right)

Immortals are 8 points base with mandatory 9 point guns (both options) so 17 points per model.

Monolith is Pricier because nearly everything but unupgraded infantry costs 1.5-2 times what it did in 7th. 3500 points is the new 2000 points.

Well, while I enjoy this delicious sautéd crow, I'll just say that I rather hope it means 1500 will be the new 2000. I wish people would embrace playing smaller games with more varied lists, rather than the state we're in at the moment where a points value that doesn't let you deploy your entire collection of models at once is somehow an inferior experience. Particularly now we have detachments that essentially let you build any army you want - a short series of linked games where your Scouts & Assault Marines perform a raid, leading to an armoured spearhead, leading to a desperate holding action with line infantry sounds like much more fun to me than "welcome to planet Bowlingballicus IV, lets fill 2/3 of the table with models and roll dice for three hours until boredom o'er takes us".

Honestly despite misgivings and quibbles about individual elements, the broad thrust of 8th sounds better and better the more we hear. I'd been considering going back to playing 3rd Edition, but 8th seems like it will be a better 3rd than 3rd was

Tyran wrote:
DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.

Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.

More DA rumors from B&C:

Unforgiven: units with these keywords auto pass morale tests and reroll to hit against fallen
Jink: 5++ save
Azrael: CM stats, grants +1 Command Point to the army if he is the warlord. TheLion Helm gives 4++ to all DA units 6" to him. Sword of Secrets +2S AP-3 D d3
Belial and Sammael make reroll .1s to hit to all DA units 6" from them and(Belial) all to hit for DW or (sammael) RW
DW has Ancient, Apothecary, Champion as characters

So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...

But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.

 theharrower wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what? ]

Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.

I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.

That's really pretty obvious. Every model in the death company can have a power fist and plasma pistol.

 greggles wrote:
And don't forget, all the ork weapons are assault weapons (for infantry). So they can advance and shoot at a -1. 6's mean nothing to orks

So there you have a horde, running, shooting the entire way, screaming bloody murder as they hit the fleshy meat bags.

And remember, we get to go first!!!!! (outside of some abilities of enemy units and strategems)

Let's go over this orks are 5+ to shoot, 6+ if advancing with str 4 shootas that wound most infantry on 4+ with 18in range for a shoots boy which I have no idea why you would take because it means you lose your choppa +1 atk and your pistol which allows you to shoot in combat. Your pistol is 12 In range. Which means your not firing it outside of combat often.

Again it's not as if you get to move on failed charges the only saving grace is removal of bodies from rear of horde but we are still slower base movement. We were to slow last edition w the same exact buffs. I don't see us playing the objective game faster all of a sudden.

Ragnar69 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.

Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.

Alright so Power Rating DC being higher makes total sense. Point for point, I don't get how Berzerkers can be cheaper with a better statline and the ability to attack twice in melee.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Jesus, horrors suck.

Where have their rules been leaked?

 theharrower wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 theharrower wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?

Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.

I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.

Quick comparison get a maxed out unit of each and compare how each one may perform in a single round, Dc with Power Mauls and plasmas are just more flexible in almost any way (shooting, extra shoot in melee same dmg as best melee version of khornates in a single round) while still can fall back or deploy due their jet packs. Also if you want to go full dmg in melee like Khornates just go for Thunder Hammers and enjoy the carnage.

Khornates only exceed in taking down a single unit in melee while Dc can do similarly while still taking advantage of extra equip and abilities.

 Crimson wrote:
So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...

But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.

I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?

 theharrower wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?

Death Company have more options.

Each and every one can be kitted out with prime wargear. The PL system takes in to account. It assumes you'll be somewhere between BP+CS and all of them having inferno pistols and thunder hammers. This is why PL isn't great if you want objective balance. Because a squad can have massive variance.

Meanwhile the difference between a basic 'zerker squad and a kitted out on comes down to what the champ is running and whether you sprung for two plasma pistols (because the chainsword/chainaxe choice isn't a cut and dry one).

Basically, the Death Company get a higher PL because they can take a much larger variety of wargear and also much more powerful wargear.

As for the point total? DC are getting an extra attack and the ability to mitigate damage even more. Zerks are just pure offense and will die as easily as a basic marine. In general, I think that second attack activation is probably easier to mitigate then some might think. Proper deployment and spacing means it may end up being a waste more than the additional attack and FNP save are for the DC. Not saying it's bad, but don't overestimate getting a second attack activation. If you kill something on the charge and there is nothing nearby to follow up on, then it goes to waste. But DC will always find a use for being tougher.

There are many factors at work here. But yeah, if you're taking naked DC in a PL game, you are overpaying by quite a bit. So make sure to kit 'em out to the nines when you run them and that PL9 will make more sense.

 Latro_ wrote:
Lots of chaos stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

thank you!

8 attack khornate DPs are going to be naaasty (4 base, 2 sets of claws for +3 attacks, +1 for not using magic)

Warp Bolter's an interesting choice, it's not going to ruin anyone's day but it gives DPs something ranged to do beyond psychic powers

Prince of Chaos is nice, and works with any Daemon units of the same god - which applies to daemon engines, Obliterators, presumably possessed and maybe Warp Talons if we're lucky
It's also not limited to melee attacks. I don't expect backfield DPs will be a thing, but the option is there

Perplexing how he doesn't have the Heretic Astartes keyword, but the Tzaangors do??

Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince

Caederes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...

But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.

I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?

I thought "Monster" Overrode that anyway?

 theharrower wrote:

I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.

All depends on who strikes first. A squad of DC with some power weapons will all but wipe out a similar sized squad of berzerkers. they can only upgrade to chainaxes, DC can all take power weapons of any type, plus any pistols they want to as well. if you add in Kharn thats a bit tougher, but then add in one of the BA characters and your back to even again. Its actually a really close matchup, and DC have access to JPs as well which is far superior to having to run around in rhinos.

 Latro_ wrote:
Lots of chaos stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

Have we seen the definition of the Deamonic keyword? I assume it gives 5++, but does it also allow for Deepstriking? Cause if we're forced to rely on either walking on or summoning, which requires giving up the movement phase for a character and hoping to roll above a certain Power Level while not dying to mortal wounds... then that's going to be balls. :(

 theharrower wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
DC has much better weapons. Plasma pistols, Inferno pistols, power weapons, power fists, thunder hammer, etc.

Exactly. Power level assumes maximum upgrades. All thunder hammers is way more expensive than 2 plasma pistols and chainaxes.

Alright so Power Rating DC being higher makes total sense. Point for point, I don't get how Berzerkers can be cheaper with a better statline and the ability to attack twice in melee.

I have the feeling DC is paying premium for the ATSKNF and Black Rage, which give it some extra durability, plus the extra attack is always nice and it scales quite good power weapons.

What? You NEED to consider sinergies when you point out a miniature, or you end with ultra broken combos!
And as other have noted, Khorne Berzerkers attack twice, but they need to survive. They have much less variety in options, less sinergies, they have not the FnP of black rage, etc, etc...

 theharrower wrote:
I get Death Company have more synergy with other units, but its crazy to point them based on what else can possibly be in the army or what equipment they may have. That doesn't make sense at all. Unit vs. unit, Death Company lose every time. Unless you consider synergy with other stuff which is daft if you ask me. And yeah, I get I'm being kneejerky here and considering this in a vacuum, but it just doesn't make sense.

First off power levels and points are not the same thing. When your using power levels all the unit upgrades are essentially free. Given that the DC have access to way more options than the Zerkers it makes perfect sense.

Secondly units have never been costed in a vacuum. The synergy's and other options within a faction that can affect a unit have always played a part in there points cost.

So, help me out here people, none of these Tzeentch things list EPHERMAL FORM on their sheet, despite the Chaos article telling us Tzeentch units got this. Do we just add that on our own, or..?

Charax wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Lots of chaos stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

thank you!

Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince

3 ones on your summoning roll means not only do you not get your Herald, but you also take D3 mortal wounds (and gave up your movement phase).

Caederes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...

But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.

I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?

Nope. It's ten or more = targettable,

Caederes wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
So daemon princes have ten wounds so they're targettable... were I a chaos player I'd be a tad annoyed by that...

But how the hell the vanilla marine units have not been leaked, or have I missed something? (I saw the points and weapons.) Being most played army I'd imagine a lot of people would be interested in seeing them.

I thought the rule was 10 or less Wounds = not targetable?

It's 10 or more can be targeted

Fair enough. Not like DC in a Pod or Raven with Lemartes aren't going to mess stuff up. Thx all.

I'm a little depressed that Magnus can now suffer from Perils. Hopefully these are stop-gap rules, and the actual codex will flesh out the models quite a bit more.

skarsol wrote:

Charax wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Lots of chaos stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

thank you!

Daemonic Ritual is a nice mechanic, and it means that Power Ratings aren't entirely discarded for matched play. Seems it's impossible to fail to summon Heralds, but I wouldnt go attempting to summon a Daemon Prince

3 ones on your summoning roll means not only do you not get your Herald, but you also take D3 mortal wounds (and gave up your movement phase).

I don't see anything saying a triple is an auto-fail. 3 1s is sufficient to summon a herald, it's just a really painful success