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 BoomWolf wrote:
Smite on rubrics and SoT is rather bad...

I mean, on average it does 0.9444 mortal wounds per cast.
However, perils are nasty. and you got 1/18 chance for it.

The rubric aspiring would die if he perils, and land d3 MW on his unit, so on average 3 MW, or 0.166 MW per cast. and not many units cost more per wound than the asp sorcerer.

On the SoC, he might actually survive the perils, but when he doesnt its nastier, and the total comes up the same 3MW average.

Now, as for Scarabs-I don't dig them.
Yea, they got slightly cheaper, and shoot a bit better.
But the sorcerer took a massive hit with the casting being sorta useless (and he already was 2W, so he didn't get a boost there unlike other termis), and the unit got worse invuls now then they used to have.

They cost 227 base, not much cheaper than old 250 base. and you only save 11 points in upgrade costs when you pack missile+reaper combo.44 points saved is nice, but they were not too hot before, and other terminators have gotten better.
Honestly, I'm not sure I'll take a SoC over a rubric.

Honestly, all things Tzeentch should have peril mitigation or buff to psychics. Rubrics and Scarabs will almost never cast powers because the 1/18 chance of watching the squad annihilate itself if just not worth the risk for 1 wound. I would have preferred to have the casting power of Horrors and just use a single D6 to cast and never have the chance to nuke myself.

I agree with most of this except the SoT being worse off look again Boom they get Rapid Fire 2 weapons thats 4 shots per guy in rapid fire range 20 shots for a min squad 10 out side rapid fire range. To top it off if you put them in cover they have a -1 armor save vs all D1 weapons, so the enemy will need -4 AP to bring them to a 3+ armor save. They cost 2 points more then a 10 man squad of Rubrics, but they all have power swords so are much more capable in close combat. They lose the same fire power per wound but you have to do 2 wounds to feel it. I would say SoT are probably going push out Rubrics for anyone that wants the fire power of 10 Rubrics.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrenAcid wrote:
All 3 of them can(talons, raptor, mutilator) talons have protection ffom OW, dont know how bad it can be...

I have 1 word for you.

Tau.

It's funny the Khorne Berzerkers have the <Legion> keyword too, meaning you can make them for example Thousand Sons or Death Guard to benefit from their characters giving synergy buffs. Useful, if you're already using those guys elsewhere. Magnus for example is so badass that I think he's a must take.

Thousand Sons Khorne Berzerkers... Where were they in the background material?

 Therion wrote:
It's funny the Khorne Berzerkers have the <Legion> keyword too, meaning you can make them for example Thousand Sons or Death Guard to benefit from their characters giving synergy buffs. Useful, if you're already using those guys elsewhere. Magnus for example is so badass that I think he's a must take.

Thousand Sons Khorne Berzerkers... Where were they in the background material?

Well, the original World Eaters legion got splitted at Skalathrax, so I guess they are now a bunches of Zerkers just roaming around getting recruited by other warbands / legions.

 Therion wrote:
It's funny the Khorne Berzerkers have the <Legion> keyword too, meaning you can make them for example Thousand Sons or Death Guard to benefit from their characters giving synergy buffs. Useful, if you're already using those guys elsewhere. Magnus for example is so badass that I think he's a must take.

Thousand Sons Khorne Berzerkers... Where were they in the background material?

You cant. Each legion has a specific set of units they can take. Thousand Sons cant take Warp Talons or a Chaos Lord for example.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Therion wrote:
It's funny the Khorne Berzerkers have the <Legion> keyword too, meaning you can make them for example Thousand Sons or Death Guard to benefit from their characters giving synergy buffs. Useful, if you're already using those guys elsewhere. Magnus for example is so badass that I think he's a must take.

Thousand Sons Khorne Berzerkers... Where were they in the background material?

You cant. Each legion has a specific set of units they can take. Thousand Sons cant take Warp Talons or a Chaos Lord for example.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. You can just take a standard detachment and use any units that share a keyword there. A Sisters of Battle HQ can lead Black Templars troops units while heavy support from Space Wolves and Dark Angels support them while the fast attack are from Astra Militarum. Everything has the Imperium keyword, meaning everything can be taken in the same detachment.

The Thousand Sons army list, just like the Death Guard army list, are basically obsolete.

Unless, you're implying that the Thousand Sons page dictates that no other unit except the ones mentioned there can exchange their <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons? If so, it's written in a pretty poor place, and misunderstood by many.

EDIT: You're probably right. Chaos gets screwed. Imperials can mix and match everything. Figures.

I mean, you can take the Khorne Berzerkers in the army, but you just can't swap their <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.

So are marks of Chaos really... not anything now?

I was kinda okay with having to Counts As some units <Legion> in my Death Guard, but now i have dirty puss bikes and rusty havocs that are no different from anyone elses either?

I kinda wanted to actually play the game, not wait 6 more months for another codex to appear.

I'm afraid these rules are all just temporary until they relaunch the factions like in Age of Sigmar, just not quite as drastic as it was there. So cult legions will each be their own legitimate factions as opposed to the pseudo factions that they are now. And by temporary I mean that the index isn't supposed to be the new vanilla codex csm and they'll add supplements, but more like here's something to keep you busy until we re-release csm into separate factions with their own relics n stuff that really has nothing to do with the index. Applicable to all factions actually.

So to get the Battlefield role swap of Noise Marines to troops, I have to build the detachment based on the <Emperors Children> keyword correct?

If I built a detachment including both EC and Daemons based on the <Chaos> keyword, the Noise Marines are elites?

 keltikhoa wrote:
So to get the Battlefield role swap of Noise Marines to troops, I have to build the detachment based on the <Emperors Children> keyword correct?

If I built a detachment including both EC and Daemons based on the <Chaos> keyword, the Noise Marines are elites?

Yes. And you have to stick to units that on the list of avaliable units that can be EC.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
So to get the Battlefield role swap of Noise Marines to troops, I have to build the detachment based on the <Emperors Children> keyword correct?

If I built a detachment including both EC and Daemons based on the <Chaos> keyword, the Noise Marines are elites?

Yes. And you have to stick to units that on the list of available units that can be EC.

Well it looks like only Death Guard and 1kSons are the only ones with restrictive lists. World Eaters and Emperors Children both just say
"The (HORUS WAS RIGHT) Astartes found on pages 16 - 42 can be from..." with no restriction list.
I guess its a good day to be a khorne or slaanesh follower.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting enough... the Lord of Skulls is on page 42 and has the <Legion> keyword. EC Slaanesh lord of skulls... Hmmm

 keltikhoa wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 keltikhoa wrote:
So to get the Battlefield role swap of Noise Marines to troops, I have to build the detachment based on the <Emperors Children> keyword correct?

If I built a detachment including both EC and Daemons based on the <Chaos> keyword, the Noise Marines are elites?

Yes. And you have to stick to units that on the list of available units that can be EC.

Well it looks like only Death Guard and 1kSons are the only ones with restrictive lists. World Eaters and Emperors Children both just say
"The (HORUS WAS RIGHT) Astartes found on pages 16 - 42 can be from..." with no restriction list.
I guess its a good day to be a khorne or slaanesh follower.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting enough... the Lord of Skulls is on page 42 and has the <Legion> keyword. EC Slaanesh lord of skulls... Hmmm

Only Death Guard and 1kSons FOR NOW
It will probably change once the EC and WE gets expanded upon.

if my main army was 1k sons I'd be concerned, death guard are getting a nice treatment at editions start, and have their own psykic powers as a result etc, I'd be a little lerry of, due to the december drop of 1k sons, the 1k sons missing out on some 8th edition specific goodies by not getting a codex while the other monogod legions do

Im late to this conversation, and I read a bit up the thread, and I had similar questions that I would like expanded upon.

1. If <legion> is on the datasleet, you must select a legion. Well since I just lost all my maulerfiends and Heldrakes, does that mean I can put them in another detachment and run it along side my DG detachment as they are no longer allowed to be DG? Or do all detachments have to be from same legion?

2. Can I mix and match CSM and Daemons in same detachment, even though I must select a legion? is the Chaos keyword enought to allow them in a detachment with my DG in order to create a daemonkin list? (this is related to first question)

3. If the answer to 1 and 2 are no, What the hell do I do with my Heldrakes, Bikes and fiends which are all painted in my DG theme? Do I just call them black legion now and say Eff the fluff?

Im torn on how i love the new rules yet seem to feel gak on as all my bikes, fiends, drakes, and termies no longer fit in with my glorious rotten army.

You can mix detachments from different legions, but they have to be from the same faction (in matched play). As both CSM and Daemons have the Chaos keyword you can easily mix.

Also, even though the DG list excludes a lot of choices you can still play them with an additional detachment (likely the fast attack one for raptors/ bikes or the heavy support one for Oblits, vindis), where you can also give all of them the mark of Nurgle. The [Legion] keyword also allows you to pick your own warbands, so you could take [The Cleaved] or [Lords of Decay] for example, just not Death Guard.

The downside is, that units from this detachment won't benefit from boni that a DG character gives to DG units, but only from the character from their detachment who has the same [Legion] keyword.

 redleger wrote:
Im late to this conversation, and I read a bit up the thread, and I had similar questions that I would like expanded upon.

1. If <legion> is on the datasleet, you must select a legion. Well since I just lost all my maulerfiends and Heldrakes, does that mean I can put them in another detachment and run it along side my DG detachment as they are no longer allowed to be DG? Or do all detachments have to be from same legion?

2. Can I mix and match CSM and Daemons in same detachment, even though I must select a legion? is the Chaos keyword enought to allow them in a detachment with my DG in order to create a daemonkin list? (this is related to first question)

3. If the answer to 1 and 2 are no, What the hell do I do with my Heldrakes, Bikes and fiends which are all painted in my DG theme? Do I just call them black legion now and say Eff the fluff?

Im torn on how i love the new rules yet seem to feel gak on as all my bikes, fiends, drakes, and termies no longer fit in with my glorious rotten army.

1- To be in the same detachment they need to have at MINIMUN one keyword. They all have Chaos, so they can be in the same detachment.
2-Yes.
3-You put them the keyword of other Legion but in your head they are all still Deathguard. The difference will be non existant, at least for now.

Also remember almost everything in the index has Legion and Marks as key words, so the codex will probably delve more into that.

That minimum of one keyword phrase clears it up for me. Thank you very much. Clear on it now.

I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

 redleger wrote:
That minimum of one keyword phrase clears it up for me. Thank you very much. Clear on it now.

The main concern the <Legion> Keyword will have on a mixed detachment is that a lot of Chaos Marine characters and units abilities that confer bonuses on other units will specify <Legion> units only, while a lot of demons confer bonuses restricted to Chaos Demon units (often further limited to the same <Mark of Chaos&gt. If you're fine with bringing Daemonettes knowing they won't get your Chaos Lord's "Lord of Chaos" buff, you're golden. It's the same with Imperium, where Astra Militarium (or whatever they call IG now, I've been gone a while) officers can only issue orders to other Astra Militarium units with the same <Regiment>.

tl;dr: You only need one keyword to battle-forge a detachment, but a lot of model's shared abilities/buffs key off the more specific keywords.


Now, my boggle is that, after coming back to the game after leaving in late 5th edition...what happened to Chaos Undivided? Is Bel'kor really the only non-aligned Demon Prince option now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

damnit man! you're not supposed to like Oblits! you're supposed to hate them because OMG random!

Now, my boggle is that, after coming back to the game after leaving in late 5th edition...what happened to Chaos Undivided? Is Bel'kor really the only non-aligned Demon Prince option now?

Chaos Undivided has taken a hit hard since 6th and has never recovered. Undivided Princes are so very, very rare as a result because now it requires all four Chaos Gods to agree "This guy needs to be upgraded regardless who he follows". So with the exception of Bel'akor and a hypothetical Abbadon Daemon Prince we'll likely never see one that isn't named in some fashion.

It doesn't help that Bel'kor thought to try and take position as a Chaos God himself and become the greatest of the greats so it makes them a bit wary when the first time they tried it went against them.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

damnit man! you're not supposed to like Oblits! you're supposed to hate them because OMG random!

I mean, they could probably be Assault 3 without breaking anything, but as a squad of 3 at 195 points:
1. They have completely accurate deep strike
2. With Assault guns they can run and shoot
3. At 3 wounds they camp objectives by themselves well
4. Even though they lost the Power Fist, they still have 3 attacks each. 9 attacks at S5 from the squad can help knock out a small squad

Seriously I don't see an issue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

damnit man! you're not supposed to like Oblits! you're supposed to hate them because OMG random!

I mean, they could probably be Assault 3 without breaking anything, but as a squad of 3 at 195 points:
1. They have completely accurate deep strike
2. With Assault guns they can run and shoot
3. At 3 wounds they camp objectives by themselves well
4. Even though they lost the Power Fist, they still have 3 attacks each. 9 attacks at S5 from the squad can help knock out a small squad

Seriously I don't see an issue.

given the pwoer fist would have just increased it's points cost (I suppose the ideal would have been to make it an option) I have no problems with losing it

Does it bum anyone else out that you can't get CSMs or Chosen Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword?

Out of everything shuffling around, I think that's the thing that bothers me the most.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does it bum anyone else out that you can't get CSMs or Chosen Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword?

Out of everything shuffling around, I think that's the thing that bothers me the most.

it annoys me given that space wolves can still do it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does it bum anyone else out that you can't get CSMs or Chosen Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword?

Out of everything shuffling around, I think that's the thing that bothers me the most.

Yes, it stokes a rage in my heart. The only edition where Plague Marines didn't get a BP option was 2nd, and their background states that Mortarion trained them to be proficient with all weapons, and to swap to them as needed, so BP/CCW/Bolter would be a good way of representing that.

It's not my main hate, but it's up there.

Honestly, most of my concerns about DG could be fixed with a simple rule:
In a detachment consisting solely of DEATH GUARD units, DEATH GUARD NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES INFANTRY units that are not already T5 become T5, and their movement is adjusted as below:
Raptors and Warp Talons become M10"
Bikers become M12"
Possessed become M6"
All other Infantry units become M4"

It's a kludge, but it works. Of course other legions would need corresponding rules, and I wouldn't bestow Disgustingly Resilient for free (even though Traitor Legions did, scant few months ago) but it would go some way to making me feel like its worth continuing with my army

Ah well, time to go into hobby hibernation till the codex leaks, I guess

Looks like Princes from Daemons are way better than princes from CSM. Seems like an oversight to let one type gain the benefits of their god, while the other gets a cool paint job...

CSM one gains 1 point of Ld and the Heretic Astartes keyword, Daemons one gets 2 wounds, benefits from their god and can be summoned

Is there any real downside to just taking the Daemons version with your CSM?

the CSM one can buff their <Legion> and similar Daemons, the Daemons one only buffs Daemons. I think the CSM powers are more useful. Didnt notice the wounds vs Ld. Tough call on which Prince is more helpful now.

Noise Marines:

They seem much improved with a bolter and bolt pistol and 2 attacks base for 16 pts. Swap the bolter for a chainsword for free to get 3 melee attacks and 1 pistol attack. Take the Icon of Excess for +10 pts if your fighting Imperium and get +1 attack on hit rolls of 5+. Finally, if they die they can make a shooting attack (3 bolter shots?) even if locked in melee. That's solid before even getting to Warp time or Prescience.

Daemonettes:

Daemonettes damage potential is better now with the constant AP-1 and AP-4 on 6" to wound. You still only wound T4-5 on a 5+, but marines are always saving on a 4+, and terminators on a 3+ or worse. Take 2 units of twenty within 6" of a herald for the +1S; and your wounding T4 on 4+. There still fast only an 1" slower than before on average with their instrument.

Question I can take Daemonettes as troops in the same detachment because of: CHAOS, SLAANESH; but I can't be "Emperors Children Legion" because Daemonettes don't have that keyword? So, my Noise Marines can't be troop so they have to remain elite choices, right?

Daemon Bomb is Back?

So I can take a Lord and Sorcerer in terminator armor, along with some obliterators and/or combi-weapon terminators and come out of tactical reserves turn 1 to apply pressure to the enemy backfield. Land 9" away, shoot something and charge in. Next turn the both the Sorcerer and Lord summons daemonette reinforcements. The Slaaneshi CSM characters can summon and they have enough wounds to mitigate the risk of a bad roll. With and average roll of ten the can summon 20 daemonettes each.

Is that right? If so we're back to 3.5.