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Charax wrote:
CSM one gains 1 point of Ld and the Heretic Astartes keyword, Daemons one gets 2 wounds, benefits from their god and can be summoned

Is there any real downside to just taking the Daemons version with your CSM?

Actually, to me the CSM daemon prince is better because it has fewer wounds. It can now benefit from the "no shooting at unless closest rule"

Hmm, I thought being a MONSTER overrode that, but I cant find that rule anywhere, guess the CSM ones can hide

 Sersi wrote:


[u
Daemon Bomb is Back?

So I can take a Lord and Sorcerer in terminator armor, along with some obliterators and/or combi-weapon terminators and come out of tactical reserves turn 1 to apply pressure to the enemy backfield. Land 9" away, shoot something and charge in. Next turn the both the Sorcerer and Lord summons daemonette reinforcements. The Slaaneshi CSM characters can summon and they have enough wounds to mitigate the risk of a bad roll. With and average roll of ten the can summon 20 daemonettes each.

Is that right? If so we're back to 3.5.

Looks like only the Chaos Daemons prince and characters get Summoning Ritual now.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Looks like only the Chaos Daemons prince and characters get Summoning Ritual now.

Any Chaos Character can perform the Daemonic Ritual to summon a unit with the Daemonic Ritual rule

You don't need the rule to do the ritual, just to be summoned by it

Charax wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Looks like only the Chaos Daemons prince and characters get Summoning Ritual now.

Any Chaos Character can perform the Daemonic Ritual to summon a unit with the Daemonic Ritual rule

You don't need the rule to do the ritual, just to be summoned by it

Ah, cool. I only saw the Ritual rule written out in the daemons section.

I have a GUO,and Nurglings that Nurgle CSM can summon, but it looks like I'll need an Undivided Sorcerer to drop down daemonettes or a Khorne herald.

I have a (walking) Daemon prince in the works that I was leaning towards Slaaneshi with, but now i'm not so sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

damnit man! you're not supposed to like Oblits! you're supposed to hate them because OMG random!

I mean, they could probably be Assault 3 without breaking anything, but as a squad of 3 at 195 points:
1. They have completely accurate deep strike
2. With Assault guns they can run and shoot
3. At 3 wounds they camp objectives by themselves well
4. Even though they lost the Power Fist, they still have 3 attacks each. 9 attacks at S5 from the squad can help knock out a small squad

Seriously I don't see an issue.

1. Not unique thing anymore, lots of CSM stuf can.
2. You have to move in to mid field or get close with T4 dude
3. No,slightly better than normal marines
4. Yes guardsmen without PW will fear them in CC.

We talk about 6shots squad for 195, Havocs with 4 Autocannons cost 145, and Forge fiend with 2 Hades Autocannons is still cheaper. They have nothing cool about them to make them worth points and slot. Thats by biggest problem, not thier actual power, Oblits were cool cuz they were Swiss knife, you could drop one melta at some rears, or 3 plasma cannons up front as fire support and bath in flames anything that went after them. Now they are boring bland 6 random(lololo) shots that cost ton of pts. Sounds like fun unit to have.

PS. How dose wound alocation works in 8? can I spread W or do I need to fill up model?

Disregard, taking to a new thread

Truth to be told, i don't mind the changes to chaos marks too much. Given that it's quite a bit of a change, shaving off lots of character to army creation, but on the other hand i figure it makes the game far more easy to actually balance. Some of the new vehicle statlines seem really great to me, especially the 'fiends, even the Defiler might be quite powerful now - time will tell.

However, on second reading, i am quite bummed, that my Death Guard will no longer be able to field Bikes. Or Lords on Bikes. Or Raptors. Or even Havocs. I certainly will miss them and instead be force to depend on luck to get into the range of enemy gun lines.

 VyRa wrote:
Truth to be told, i don't mind the changes to chaos marks too much. Given that it's quite a bit of a change, shaving off lots of character to army creation, but on the other hand i figure it makes the game far more easy to actually balance. Some of the new vehicle statlines seem really great to me, especially the 'fiends, even the Defiler might be quite powerful now - time will tell.

However, on second reading, i am quite bummed, that my Death Guard will no longer be able to field Bikes. Or Lords on Bikes. Or Raptors. Or even Havocs. I certainly will miss them and instead be force to depend on luck to get into the range of enemy gun lines.

So I cant take DG as troops and Bikes with MoN or Havocs? WHY???

 GrenAcid wrote:
So I cant take DG as troops and Bikes with MoN or Havocs? WHY???

We're in the middle of discussing that over here, if you want to give it a look.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does it bum anyone else out that you can't get CSMs or Chosen Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND Chainsword?

Out of everything shuffling around, I think that's the thing that bothers me the most.

Having built a load of Prospero marines with those sweet holstered Chainswords and bought a couple of DV sets where Chosen QUITE PLAINLY carry a gun, pistol and melee weapon with no multifit options, I am mightily miffed off. A Slaaneshi Rhino squad being able to jump out and blaze away, then receiving a charge with loads of I5 attacks, quite plainly was a draw to building a unit armed to the teeth.

This looks like another artefact of the strange 'pay for all your weapons, standard issue pistols and rifles and swords cost zero' system. They've made an overcomplicated budgeting system, and now they're hammering square pegs to fit the round holes it's created.

So. If Bolter marines have a sheathed chain sword, it's run out of fuel. If chainsword marines have a sheathed Bolter, it's out of ammo.

This looks like another artefact of the strange 'pay for all your weapons, standard issue pistols and rifles and swords cost zero' system. They've made an overcomplicated budgeting system, and now they're hammering square pegs to fit the round holes it's created.

Or its a weird return to 3.5 where you didn't have all three. You could take CCW and Bolt Pistol or CCW and Boltgun.. Though this time they've chosen to make it so that its Bolt Pistol and Boltgun, or CCW and Bolt Pistol.

Given the restrictions returning to Legions it seems it may be the 3.5 one.

According to the core rules combat phase all models are assumed to have a CCW even if its not included in their datasheet. So all Marines armed with a Boltgun and bolt pistol, have a CCW by default anyway. You just can't swap it for anything else.

 Sersi wrote:
According to the core rules combat phase all models are assumed to have a CCW even if its not included in their datasheet. So all Marines armed with a Boltgun and bolt pistol, have a CCW by default anyway. You just can't swap it for anything else.

I think the main problem here is that new Chainweapons give +1A, so its kinda important to have it on your marine.

Yes, and most of the DV Chosen - a set of models that a great many CSM players have, be they for Chosen or Characters - have pistol, power weapon, and bolt gun. A loadout that I can't find in the options for anyone. Loads of the hero figures are the same, and the 7ed unit champion entries mandate models be triple-armed to be WYSIWYG, and in the case of the guy who fires a combi-melta then charges a corpse-lover, positively encouraged us to wave around a carbine & power sword with a prominent holstered pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yeah, it's not just that Chainswords & mundane CCWs ought to be WYSIWYG so your opponent can tell which units are dangerous in melee - the fact that champions have gone from having three useful weapons that can each be traded for other useful weapons is going to throw a lot of existing collections into disarray.

For Daemon Players

I'm sure most of you have already seen this, but if you have not -- look at the synergy between your daemon units. They are designed to be used together to get more effective.
Lets say that your army consists of 90 daemonettes, 2 herald, the masque, one keeper of secrets, and one daemon prince of slaanesh. You will need to take a supreme command detachment to pull this off along with a Battalion Detachment.

Your heralds give your daemonettes a STR of 4. Your Heralds give themselves a STR of 5. Your Keeper starts with a STR 7. Your DP starts with a STR of 8.
Your DP lets all your attacks of a 1 get rerolled. When combines with the massive amount of attacks 30 damonettes get (90) it means much rending will happen.
Your Keeper gives nearby units a LD of 10 for purposes of morale. Those extra 3 points of LD add up quickly.
The masque helps keep your daemonettes by buffing them and weakening the enemy.

All chaos gods benefit from this synergy.

Yeah, I'm thinking about taking my Herald of Tzeentch off his base and putting him on a Disk.

If he's on a Chariot, is he still able to hide behind units?

The csm dp specifically states it buffs both legion and daemon units while the CD dp says it only buffs daemons. I'm curious if the CD one buffs helldrake and other keyword<daemon> who are not faction keyword <daemon>

Hmm yea, faction keyword and keyword daemon. That's not going to cause any any confusion or come up in YMDC ^^

Surely a keyword is a keyword, doesn't specify it it's faction or not?

 keltikhoa wrote:
The csm dp specifically states it buffs both legion and daemon units while the CD dp says it only buffs daemons. I'm curious if the CD one buffs helldrake and other keyword<daemon> who are not faction keyword <daemon>

I find it interesting that they are the same points cost too.

 GrenAcid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also can't wait to use Obliterators again. When Iron Warriors make them troops again when their rules come out, they're gonna be superb objective campers.

damnit man! you're not supposed to like Oblits! you're supposed to hate them because OMG random!

I mean, they could probably be Assault 3 without breaking anything, but as a squad of 3 at 195 points:
1. They have completely accurate deep strike
2. With Assault guns they can run and shoot
3. At 3 wounds they camp objectives by themselves well
4. Even though they lost the Power Fist, they still have 3 attacks each. 9 attacks at S5 from the squad can help knock out a small squad

Seriously I don't see an issue.

1. Not unique thing anymore, lots of CSM stuf can.
2. You have to move in to mid field or get close with T4 dude
3. No,slightly better than normal marines
4. Yes guardsmen without PW will fear them in CC.

We talk about 6shots squad for 195, Havocs with 4 Autocannons cost 145, and Forge fiend with 2 Hades Autocannons is still cheaper. They have nothing cool about them to make them worth points and slot. Thats by biggest problem, not thier actual power, Oblits were cool cuz they were Swiss knife, you could drop one melta at some rears, or 3 plasma cannons up front as fire support and bath in flames anything that went after them. Now they are boring bland 6 random(lololo) shots that cost ton of pts. Sounds like fun unit to have.

PS. How dose wound alocation works in 8? can I spread W or do I need to fill up model?

1. Not the Havocs and Forgefiends you listed though. So I don't have to tackle this later as you're paying for a combination of firepower, durability, and deployment options.
2. You mean the T4 dude that has 3 wounds and doesn't have to fear being ID'd? Not an issue like it was for the last two versions of them.
3. A squad of 10 marines is 130 points for 10 wounds. You're likely adding special and heavy weapons so we will pretend it's 170 for now. That's comparable durability without adding the bonuses of a Rhino.
4. All you need is to kill a small squad and that's it. For Marines on the charge that's a little over 1 dead Marine. For Guardsmen that's almost 3 dead.

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Now we have a more defined role. I see them as mid-way-elite killers and superb Objective Campers.

Has anyone figured out a way to make summoning usable? Summoning has: additional risks to the character; randomised limitation on what can be summoned; inability to choose to appear anywhere (must be within 12" of a character who hasn't moved at all that turn); and the need to pay points for them in matched pay.

All of these things just seem like a much weaker version of deepstrike. While there's the versatility in what you summon in a given situation, it still seems extremely weak. Am I missing/misunderstanding something here?

Kharn or a Dark Apostle to give Berzerkers a re-roll to hit?

One is 97pts less but the other gets 9 more attacks.
One can hurt himself or kill his fellows, the other helps with morale.

You could take 10 more berzerkers for the saving.

So really the question is Kharn and ten Berzerkers or a Dark Apostle and twenty Berzerkers

Loopstah wrote:
Kharn or a Dark Apostle to give Berzerkers a re-roll to hit?

One is 97pts less but the other gets 9 more attacks.
One can hurt himself or kill his fellows, the other helps with morale.

You could take 10 more berzerkers for the saving.

How are you getting 10 berserkers for 97 points? Kharn is much stronger in combat, but his re-roll buff only applies to units within 1" of him (conveniently the range of his ability to hurt allies). If you're using fewer large units of berserkers, this is less of an issue. If you're taking multiple smaller units of berserkers, it may be easier to fit them within the Apostle's 6" re-roll radius. The additional leadership may also be nice - winning combats and causing damage don't prevent morale checks, so having a few extra points buffer before losing models could be handy. Personally I'd go with Kharn to be fluffy, but apostles are a cheaper and useful option to fill the manadatory HQ slots in many detachments.

EDIT: Just noticed - Apostle specifies that you can re-roll misses in the fight phase. Kharn allows you to re-roll misses in any phase. If you're planning to take Plasma plasma pistols, Kharn may ironically offers additional safety from overheats.

I guessed 10, it would actually be 6 extra Berzerkers.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Has anyone figured out a way to make summoning usable? Summoning has: additional risks to the character; randomised limitation on what can be summoned; inability to choose to appear anywhere (must be within 12" of a character who hasn't moved at all that turn); and the need to pay points for them in matched pay.

All of these things just seem like a much weaker version of deepstrike. While there's the versatility in what you summon in a given situation, it still seems extremely weak. Am I missing/misunderstanding something here?

I'm not keen on them either. The fact that the units have to be so small is a kick in the pants too. I can't drop a unit of 30 daemonettes right next to someone.
You can consistently put down units of 10. With an instrument that's an 8" charge. If you use a CP to reroll it, it could be good .. but it won't be amazing.

What weapons are best on Khorne Berserkers:

Plasma pistols: high damage, can be used at range (still useful if you fail your charge). Expensive. Don't benefit from the Beserker's ability to fight twice. Limited number per squad

Bolt pistol: cheap, can be used even in turns you fail your charge (obviously you use them before getting your opportunity to charge, but a failed charge roll doesn't completely prevent the beserkers from outputting damage. Don't benefit from berserker's ability to fight twice

Chainaxe - +1S, -1AP, only 1 point. No range (charge reliant)
Chainsword - No stat bonuses but you get an extra attack with that weapon. No range.

I'm actually leaning towards chain axe and chainsword at the moment. This allows you to benefit the most from the Berserker's ability to fight twice in combat. But you're left high and dry if you fail a charge. Hopefully with Rhino rushing, you're going to be within a sensible charge range (though there's little to prevent your opponents kiting you backwards). Even in those situations though, are the few pistol shots worth much?

Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.