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Captyn_Bob wrote:
Surely a keyword is a keyword, doesn't specify it it's faction or not?

I haven't found anything that says faction keyword and keyword are different, but the fact that they separate the two makes it an odd situation. Haven't looked at eldar stuff as I don't have an eldar army, do eldar and dark eldar share a keyword or is it all nu-name keywords

 keltikhoa wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Surely a keyword is a keyword, doesn't specify it it's faction or not?

I haven't found anything that says faction keyword and keyword are different, but the fact that they separate the two makes it an odd situation. Haven't looked at eldar stuff as I don't have an eldar army, do eldar and dark eldar share a keyword or is it all nu-name keywords

I think it relates to army building, since a lot of units have keywords that also share between them (like Old One Eye also has the Carnifex keyword) but apparently if you build your army with sharing Faction Keywords you get more benefits. This might mean that sharing Faction Keywords earns you more benefits, while sharing normal keywords dont (and those are just used to differentiate between effects).

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Has anyone figured out a way to make summoning usable? Summoning has: additional risks to the character; randomised limitation on what can be summoned; inability to choose to appear anywhere (must be within 12" of a character who hasn't moved at all that turn); and the need to pay points for them in matched pay.

All of these things just seem like a much weaker version of deepstrike. While there's the versatility in what you summon in a given situation, it still seems extremely weak. Am I missing/misunderstanding something here?

I'm not keen on them either. The fact that the units have to be so small is a kick in the pants too. I can't drop a unit of 30 daemonettes right next to someone.
You can consistently put down units of 10. With an instrument that's an 8" charge. If you use a CP to reroll it, it could be good .. but it won't be amazing.

But how are you getting your units close enough to charge?

Turn 1 you're running your squishy herald at the enemy. He then has a turn to move away or kill the herald before you get a chance to summon. So imagine you're starting 24" away and your opponent sets up on the edge of the deployment zone, a Herald on steed can move 14" forwards, advance another D6 and potentially charge 2D6. Pretty good range all things considered, and potentially enough to get a first turn charge. Obviously that's not going to happen every game though, so on average you're looking at 17.5" of movement (still 6.5" from your opponent). Now your opponent has a whole turn to kill the herald, or move further way. Assuming the herald isn't killed, it's quite unlikely that the enemy is going to be able to move an entire 12+2d6" away from your herald to avoid the summoned unit having a chance at charging. So you're in with a shot at getting something summoned that can assault.

Unfortunately this is insanely easy to counter: Kill the T3 5W 5++ herald, an escorting unit might make this more challenging of course. Alternatively, the enemy can just move towards the herald. Any unit he summons must be wholely within 12" of the herald but more than 9" from an enemy model, so you can deny summoning space. Come to think of it though, that's probably quite counterproductive because you're just running into the face of the rest of the daemons assault units. Thinking about it, it's pretty difficult to actually deny summoning assaults completely other than by killing the herald (with shooting or CC). But to base an entire strategy around around random number of units, a pretty lengthy charge, and reasonably expensive characters not getting slaughtered in a single turn by your opponent's entire army of combined shooting, seems a bit much.

Perhaps it could work better with multiple heralds and multiple seeker units to protect them. But even then, you're starting with a reduced amount of points of the table, and effectively sacrificing some of those starting points to be able to utilise the rest of your army. You can't even combine summoning effectively with transports, though CSM characters may offers similar opportunities with increased survivability.

Asura Varuna wrote:
What weapons are best on Khorne Berserkers:

Plasma pistols: high damage, can be used at range (still useful if you fail your charge). Expensive. Don't benefit from the Beserker's ability to fight twice. Limited number per squad

Bolt pistol: cheap, can be used even in turns you fail your charge (obviously you use them before getting your opportunity to charge, but a failed charge roll doesn't completely prevent the beserkers from outputting damage. Don't benefit from berserker's ability to fight twice

Chainaxe - +1S, -1AP, only 1 point. No range (charge reliant)
Chainsword - No stat bonuses but you get an extra attack with that weapon. No range.

I'm actually leaning towards chain axe and chainsword at the moment. This allows you to benefit the most from the Berserker's ability to fight twice in combat. But you're left high and dry if you fail a charge. Hopefully with Rhino rushing, you're going to be within a sensible charge range (though there's little to prevent your opponents kiting you backwards). Even in those situations though, are the few pistol shots worth much?

The Axes, Swords, and the mix of the two are mathematically identical against MEQ targets FYI, with axes being a little better against t3 and t6 targets. Personally, I'd go with pistols and swords or axes. Paying a point to mix the axes and swords while also losing your shooting doesn't seem efficient.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

How long do you think it'll be till we get legion rules and artifacts back?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

How long do you think it'll be till we get legion rules and artifacts back?

At the risk of sounding a little bit like a negative nancy, I'm not sure relics will come back. I pray we get Traitor Legions in the next year, that last book made me insanely happy with my Night Lords for the first time in a long time. But Once GW starts doing relics again, OP characters can potentially become a thing, and that worries me a bit. I could see this new 'balanced' 8th edition removing them from everything but Named Characters, which I suppose would make sense.

But the complete absence of demon weapons for Chaos Lords seems insane to me. Demon weapons show up on Chaos Lords a ton in the fluff... Flipping through the Loyalist codex it looks like 4 attacks is going to be the average these days, but I'm really disappointed that now that my Chaos lord can potentially get a first turn charge, he isn't gonna kill nearly as many dudes.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

How long do you think it'll be till we get legion rules and artifacts back?

Daily reminder it took us 3 editions to get Legion rules back after they were stripped away. We got them for 6 months. They are gone again

How's 2025 sound to you?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

How long do you think it'll be till we get legion rules and artifacts back?

Daily reminder it took us 3 editions to get Legion rules back after they were stripped away. We got them for 6 months. They are gone again

How's 2025 sound to you?

Yay! Love you daddy GW.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Perhaps it could work better with multiple heralds and multiple seeker units to protect them. But even then, you're starting with a reduced amount of points of the table, and effectively sacrificing some of those starting points to be able to utilise the rest of your army. You can't even combine summoning effectively with transports, though CSM characters may offers similar opportunities with increased survivability.

I agree.
Seekers are so fast, I expect them to be able to be a go-to for a lot of slaanesh armies.
14" move + ~4.5 advance + ~8 charge range.
That's a 26.5 average threat range on turn one.

Has anyone seen a rule that prevents turn 1 assaults?

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Perhaps it could work better with multiple heralds and multiple seeker units to protect them. But even then, you're starting with a reduced amount of points of the table, and effectively sacrificing some of those starting points to be able to utilise the rest of your army. You can't even combine summoning effectively with transports, though CSM characters may offers similar opportunities with increased survivability.

I agree.
Seekers are so fast, I expect them to be able to be a go-to for a lot of slaanesh armies.

Has anyone seen a rule that prevents turn 1 assaults?
14" move + ~4.5 advance + ~8 charge range.
That's a 26.5 average threat range on turn one.

Nothing is stopping you from turn one assaulting.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

The mounts are probably where you want to look. The juggernaut/steed of slaanesh are both good for this, increasing speed obviously, but also giving you either extra str or an extra attack (something almost unique to the slaanesh mount), plus the mount attacks themselves, the juggernaut's being fairly good to boot.

The chainfist is brutal if you want a terminator lord, being able to devastate any multi wound model with a single hit. Powerfist is similarly good, but d3 instead of d6 per hit is still a step down. Two lightning claws is close to the power fist, though geared for carving up normal infantry. Personally I don't think due

If you went for the power/chain fist, either go with something for clearing out single wound models with lower Toughness and saves (and single claw or power maul/axe), or a plasma pistol as it grants you an extra attack that's otherwise difficult to get.

The best option is currently juggernaut lord with LC+PF. The juggernaut+LC means that you've still got 7 str 5 AP -1 D 1 attacks, half of which you rerolls to wound. That should be good enough for hitting normal infantry, and the fist is the best option for anything with multiple wounds, and lets you wound toughness 4/5 on a 2+. This is probably the lord you want if you just want maximum death. Could even drop the LC for a plasma pistol, if you think you'll mostly be fighting enemies which need the PF and want an extra attack. This probably better on a steed of slaanesh, to maximize attacks with PF as well.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Perhaps it could work better with multiple heralds and multiple seeker units to protect them. But even then, you're starting with a reduced amount of points of the table, and effectively sacrificing some of those starting points to be able to utilise the rest of your army. You can't even combine summoning effectively with transports, though CSM characters may offers similar opportunities with increased survivability.

I agree.
Seekers are so fast, I expect them to be able to be a go-to for a lot of slaanesh armies.

Has anyone seen a rule that prevents turn 1 assaults?
14" move + ~4.5 advance + ~8 charge range.
That's a 26.5 average threat range on turn one.

Nothing is stopping you from turn one assaulting.

Except your opponent setting up within 26.5" of you of course. Nothing forces them to line up on the edge of their deployment zone after all. And you might also have the -2" charge distance through cover to contend with.

Additionally, even if you do make the charge turn 1, there's nothing to stop your opponent from just falling back out of combat and then shooting the exposed herald/seekers with other units. They can even charge them with other units to make sure they're especially dead. Even if they're not dead from that, you're limited in where you're able to deploy any newly summoned units (because they have to 9" away from the enemy and wholely within 12" of your character).

If assigning damage works like it does in AoS, and all indications are that it does, then a chaos lord with PF can potentially smear 12 regular infantry dudes. Seems fairly powerful to me. And the LC will consistently eat infantry as well since it hits on 2s.

Honestly, the value of characters is going to be in the command buffs they give to surrounding units anyway. Charging a Chaos Lord into a large block of infantry, especially close combat infantry, is going to be suicidal more often than not.

orkychaos wrote:
If assigning damage works like it does in AoS, and all indications are that it does, then a chaos lord with PF can potentially smear 12 regular infantry dudes. Seems fairly powerful to me. And the LC will consistently eat infantry as well since it hits on 2s.

Honestly, the value of characters is going to be in the command buffs they give to surrounding units anyway. Charging a Chaos Lord into a large block of infantry, especially close combat infantry, is going to be suicidal more often than not.

Damage does not carry over to other models.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Trying out a list build, and I'm struggling with how weak the Chaos Lord looks. I can't give him a Daemon weapon to boost his attacks, and Melee weapons are kind of mediocre at best. Lightning claws seem to be the best option since they at least give an extra attack, and provide the re-roll to wound. But across the board, I feel like there's no way he becomes a powerhouse until we get relics.

How long do you think it'll be till we get legion rules and artifacts back?

Daily reminder it took us 3 editions to get Legion rules back after they were stripped away. We got them for 6 months. They are gone again

How's 2025 sound to you?

A bit early.

Yep, which is why the mounts are so valuable this time, one of the only ways to get more attacks (even if with weaker profiles)

Asura Varuna wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
Perhaps it could work better with multiple heralds and multiple seeker units to protect them. But even then, you're starting with a reduced amount of points of the table, and effectively sacrificing some of those starting points to be able to utilise the rest of your army. You can't even combine summoning effectively with transports, though CSM characters may offers similar opportunities with increased survivability.

I agree.
Seekers are so fast, I expect them to be able to be a go-to for a lot of slaanesh armies.

Has anyone seen a rule that prevents turn 1 assaults?
14" move + ~4.5 advance + ~8 charge range.
That's a 26.5 average threat range on turn one.

Nothing is stopping you from turn one assaulting.

Except your opponent setting up within 26.5" of you of course. Nothing forces them to line up on the edge of their deployment zone after all. And you might also have the -2" charge distance through cover to contend with.

Additionally, even if you do make the charge turn 1, there's nothing to stop your opponent from just falling back out of combat and then shooting the exposed herald/seekers with other units. They can even charge them with other units to make sure they're especially dead. Even if they're not dead from that, you're limited in where you're able to deploy any newly summoned units (because they have to 9" away from the enemy and wholely within 12" of your character).

brb assaulting with five heldrakes turn one huehuehueheuhueheuhue

 andysonic1 wrote:
brb assaulting with five heldrakes turn one huehuehueheuhueheuhue

Don't forget to to toast them with the Baleflamer before assaulting as well.

It does suck that you lost legion rules, with the probable release schedule for codexes (SM, primaris, and DG first or early, then whatever else got new models recently so probably ynnari, then it's up in the air) it could be around a year until they get replaced, assuming that codexes get pumped out on a regular schedule with the goal of replacing the 5 starter books as soon as possible.

SilverAlien wrote:


The best option is currently juggernaut lord with LC+PF. The juggernaut+LC means that you've still got 7 str 5 AP -1 D 1 attacks, half of which you rerolls to wound. That should be good enough for hitting normal infantry, and the fist is the best option for anything with multiple wounds, and lets you wound toughness 4/5 on a 2+. This is probably the lord you want if you just want maximum death. Could even drop the LC for a plasma pistol, if you think you'll mostly be fighting enemies which need the PF and want an extra attack. This probably better on a steed of slaanesh, to maximize attacks with PF as well.

Yeah that's certainly the most punishment, especially since the juggernaughts wounds go to strength 7 on the charge. I like the fact the terminator lord can teleport in though. It kind makes him a one hit wonder, since he'll be moving pretty slow after his first attack though. Basically Chaos Lords got nerfed down to standard Space marine heroes, which I guess I can kind of see...

Because then I looked closely at the Demon Prince. Demon weapons are pretty much useless, but those talons are brutal. A Demon Prince of Khorne can roll with 8 Strength 7, AP -2, Damage 2 attacks. That is pretty brutal. And the second pair of talons costs only 10 more points!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Speak for yourself. In literally the last game I played I used twin linked meltas to shoot down a flyer, and plasma cannons to fire at a unit that just deep striked.

So, the Big Question.

Are Chaos Space Marines worth taking now?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, the Big Question.

Are Chaos Space Marines worth taking now?

Eh.

If we get legion rules back and artifacts then yes! Praise the Gods yes!

However if all we have is this and a few cult units down the line then I think CSM are going to be average again (hopefully not bellow average but we'll have to see how they face up against other armies).

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, the Big Question.

Are Chaos Space Marines worth taking now?

The army or the unit?

The army is probably actually in more even footing in 8th edition than it was in 7th, and that's including the supplements. The changes to core rules, specifically involving rapid fire/assault/pistol weapons, have benefitted the army in a number of ways.

The unit... eh. They can take a heavy weapon at 5 men, 2 at 10, and lost the ability to go blade+bolt pistol+bolter. Also aren't as overpriced as they used to be, compared to marines. Still overpriced though, our death to the emperor is still worse than atsknf, unless you run them with pistol and sword and are fighting imperium. Then again, units of 5 really won't be worried about moral unless the units been brought down to 1/2 marines, so more or less a wash.

It's mostly the cult troops being so much better for the price. Khorne beserkers with chain axes cost 4 ppm more (17) than CSM, noise marines with sonic blasters cost 7ppm more (20). Khorne puts out twice as many attacks at a higher str/AP than chainsword pistol CSM, noise marines put out 1.5-3 times as many shots that ignore cover and twice as many attacks as bolter CSM, plus additional rules like assault on the NM guns and access to better special/heavy weapons.

So yeah, CSM are meh, this time mainly due to cult troops getting a lot of love. At the same time, those cult units are cheap and good for their price, plus this edition seems to really encourage a lot of troops on the table. In general, most things are priced better, and the new rules really have helped some neglected units. Terminators are also worth mentioning in particular. Combi bolters got a buff, as did combi weapons in general, our terminators almost look like crisis suit squads with better melee. Particularly when combined with the new deep strike which lets them get close much more easily.

So yeah, long winded way of saying the army looks good at glance, the unit CSM still gets overshadowed by cult troops.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Speak for yourself. In literally the last game I played I used twin linked meltas to shoot down a flyer, and plasma cannons to fire at a unit that just deep striked.

Yeah, with the Cult of Destruction burning down Necrons was a fun option. 3heavy flamers followed by 3twin-linked flamers and then charging together with warp smith - even decurion Necrons had a hard time surviving this.
I wasn't lucky with Plasmacannons though, always took the twin-linked plasma guns instead, gets hot! sucks.
The new oblits sound okay, but I really don't like rolling 3 dice before I even fired one shot. Especially if I plan on using 3 units of Oblits...

So, as a change to the moaning about my Death Guard its time to focus on my Night Lords instead!

How are people thinking about Raptors this edition? I've modeled one unit with flamers, but the plasma gun might be e worthy now. Also Warp Talons! From their strange wording they seem to get an attack for each Claw rather than the pair. FAQ already?

Gah, wanted to take another look at the Warp talons but I can't find the link. Could someone repost it? Also might it be an idea to put the full chaos codex leak in the OP?

Ahriman seems quite decent with his Disc for a relatively cheap price.

The new deadly Perils rules do worry me though. He seems to always blow his own head off.

Also the fact that you can only cast Smite once per player turn is disappointing.

Currently in the process of taking off all my DG off my 9 Bikes :(

It's probably clear cut somewhere, but where is the only one smite per turn thing?

From what I read in the rulebook a psyker can only attempt to cast the same spell once per turn.

So other psykers would be fine to try it once per turn also? Probably just me reading it poorly.

Smite can be cast as many times as you want.
In matched play, other powers can only be cast once per turn,.