SilverAlien wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, the Big Question.

Are Chaos Space Marines worth taking now?

The army or the unit?

The army is probably actually in more even footing in 8th edition than it was in 7th, and that's including the supplements. The changes to core rules, specifically involving rapid fire/assault/pistol weapons, have benefitted the army in a number of ways.

The unit... eh. They can take a heavy weapon at 5 men, 2 at 10, and lost the ability to go blade+bolt pistol+bolter. Also aren't as overpriced as they used to be, compared to marines. Still overpriced though, our death to the emperor is still worse than atsknf, unless you run them with pistol and sword and are fighting imperium. Then again, units of 5 really won't be worried about moral unless the units been brought down to 1/2 marines, so more or less a wash.

It's mostly the cult troops being so much better for the price. Khorne beserkers with chain axes cost 4 ppm more (17) than CSM, noise marines with sonic blasters cost 7ppm more (20). Khorne puts out twice as many attacks at a higher str/AP than chainsword pistol CSM, noise marines put out 1.5-3 times as many shots that ignore cover and twice as many attacks as bolter CSM, plus additional rules like assault on the NM guns and access to better special/heavy weapons.

So yeah, CSM are meh, this time mainly due to cult troops getting a lot of love. At the same time, those cult units are cheap and good for their price, plus this edition seems to really encourage a lot of troops on the table. In general, most things are priced better, and the new rules really have helped some neglected units. Terminators are also worth mentioning in particular. Combi bolters got a buff, as did combi weapons in general, our terminators almost look like crisis suit squads with better melee. Particularly when combined with the new deep strike which lets them get close much more easily.

So yeah, long winded way of saying the army looks good at glance, the unit CSM still gets overshadowed by cult troops.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
It's probably clear cut somewhere, but where is the only one smite per turn thing?

From what I read in the rulebook a psyker can only attempt to cast the same spell once per turn.

So other psykers would be fine to try it once per turn also? Probably just me reading it poorly.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So, as a change to the moaning about my Death Guard its time to focus on my Night Lords instead!

How are people thinking about Raptors this edition? I've modeled one unit with flamers, but the plasma gun might be e worthy now. Also Warp Talons! From their strange wording they seem to get an attack for each Claw rather than the pair. FAQ already?

 fwlr wrote:
I dislike how TS are now useless in matched play. Only 1 spell from dark heretics a turn?! Get out. They now have throwaway 'mastery levels?' That you can do nothing with.
E.g a game with Magnus, 2 exalted sorcerors, scarab occult termies and 20 rubrics split however. This means Magnus casts pretty much useless spells while everyone else does nothing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Smite is bad for 1ksons.
the "mini sorcerers" only do an average about 1 MW with it, and have a 1/18 chance of nuking their own squad.

The fact we don't have actual spells makes it so fielding multiple exalted sorcerers (always take them over sorcerers) is not a great idea, as most of them will only ever cast smite. A better variation, but still only smite. and the self-nuke hurts more.

TS is currently not too functional. our "army list" is too small, and the lack of spells too harmful.

ALTHOUGH, one can argue, we get the chaos daemon spells because on a disc we got both the tzeentch and the daemon keyword. eer, what?

Can't check for sure, as the pile I used to read the rules got removed (and I wasnt clever enough to save a copy), so if anyone has a copy I'd love him to send it to me (all the files too not just chaos. I need to know what I'm facing!)

 ochobits wrote:
Hi there. After lurking this thread for a few days now I finally decided to ask a question.

I have 15 termies in the making, but I was waiting for the rules to decide what weapon config to use - focusing right now on painting bodies and heads. I am not an expert on tactics so I would appreciate your help a lot. My plan is to build three units, one with the basic combi-bolter and power axe, one more focused on shooting (Reaper cannon, maybe some meltas) and a close combat focused unit (double lighting claws!).

Regarding that last unit... how can I play a close combat terminator unit? I don't want to include a Land Raider or any other trasnport if possible. Do you think than trying to get on CC without a transport is going to be hard on 8th? Is deep strike a valid option or should I get that unit escorting my Chaos Sorcer in terminator armor?

Thanks a lot, I really need to make a decission on this before mounting the weapons on the miniatures...

 Insectum7 wrote:


My impression, on the outset at least, is that Deep Striking will be quite viable in 8th. From what I've read I think Deep Strike no longer scatters, and you can assault after Deep Striking. When you combine that with our new Warptime psychic power, I think you have a potent combo once you get your Sorcerer into a good position. I think it's Teleport Strike in the Movement Phase 9" away from enemy model, then they can Move in the Psychic Phase with Warptime, then they can shoot and Assault later in the turn.

In fact, all you have to do is put your Sorcerer in Terminator Armor, and he Teleport Strikes as well in order to get him into position. Wham, Bam. Who needs Drop Pods, anyways?

Caveat: I think I'm reading that correctly. . . but this is after a day or two of skimming the rules. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 ochobits wrote:

Thanks for the tip, I had that impression as well after reading about the new Deep Strike rules but forgot the possibilites of adding Warptime to the equation. My Sorcerer is already suited in a Terminator Armor, so I got that covered. Btw, can a Terminator with Double Lighting Claws shoot something before charging? I guess those claws make quite difficult to pull a trigger XD

 ochobits wrote:
Hi there. After lurking this thread for a few days now I finally decided to ask a question.

I have 15 termies in the making, but I was waiting for the rules to decide what weapon config to use - focusing right now on painting bodies and heads. I am not an expert on tactics so I would appreciate your help a lot. My plan is to build three units, one with the basic combi-bolter and power axe, one more focused on shooting (Reaper cannon, maybe some meltas) and a close combat focused unit (double lighting claws!).

Regarding that last unit... how can I play a close combat terminator unit? I don't want to include a Land Raider or any other trasnport if possible. Do you think than trying to get on CC without a transport is going to be hard on 8th? Is deep strike a valid option or should I get that unit escorting my Chaos Sorcer in terminator armor?

Thanks a lot, I really need to make a decission on this before mounting the weapons on the miniatures...

 BoomWolf wrote:
TS is currently not too functional. our "army list" is too small, and the lack of spells too harmful.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
TS is currently not too functional. our "army list" is too small, and the lack of spells too harmful.

If the design team works closely with the writers, TS deserves to get a few powers or tables tied to their psyker schools (Corvidae, etc). Then add some relics (Grimoire, Seer's Bane) and strategems to really open psychic warfare and we're in business.

The crux of this question is whether GW is trying to deemphasize the psychic phase entirely. I liked the way TS did most of their damage in the psychic phase, but I suppose not everybody was a fan.

SilverAlien wrote:


Do you have a preference on gods? Khorne's icon of wrath can help make charges more reliable as could your sorcerer (even if using both wouldn't be super fluffy). Either helps make that 9" charge after deep striking easier.

The others sound good, hard to give advice currently about specific loadouts till we've seen things in action more. Combi meltas+reaper certainly looks like a solid choice for your shooty unit though, melta also works well with warptime, getting you in half melta range for the damage reroll.

I'd also point out chainfists are really nice this edition, albeit expensive. A couple in your combi bolter+axe unit would allow you to threaten vehicles/MC and help if you end up squared off against other multi wound model. Three axes and two chainfists would mean a 34 point increase over five axes, not bad for what you get. It isn't essential, but it might be something to consider.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Speak for yourself. In literally the last game I played I used twin linked meltas to shoot down a flyer, and plasma cannons to fire at a unit that just deep striked.

SilverAlien wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
TS is currently not too functional. our "army list" is too small, and the lack of spells too harmful.

If the design team works closely with the writers, TS deserves to get a few powers or tables tied to their psyker schools (Corvidae, etc). Then add some relics (Grimoire, Seer's Bane) and strategems to really open psychic warfare and we're in business.

The crux of this question is whether GW is trying to deemphasize the psychic phase entirely. I liked the way TS did most of their damage in the psychic phase, but I suppose not everybody was a fan.

Running into a really psyker heavy army like tsons was kinda like running into an imperial knight army. It wasn't that you couldn't win, it just that you felt like you were playing an entirely different game than your opponent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Speak for yourself. In literally the last game I played I used twin linked meltas to shoot down a flyer, and plasma cannons to fire at a unit that just deep striked.

If you're going to let a single mathematical anomaly sway your opinion, you're not the correct person to talk to.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 GrenAcid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Not the Havocs and Forgefiends you listed though. So I don't have to tackle this later as you're paying for a combination of firepower, durability, and deployment options.
2. You mean the T4 dude that has 3 wounds and doesn't have to fear being ID'd? Not an issue like it was for the last two versions of them.
3. A squad of 10 marines is 130 points for 10 wounds. You're likely adding special and heavy weapons so we will pretend it's 170 for now. That's comparable durability without adding the bonuses of a Rhino.
4. All you need is to kill a small squad and that's it. For Marines on the charge that's a little over 1 dead Marine. For Guardsmen that's almost 3 dead.

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Now we have a more defined role. I see them as mid-way-elite killers and superb Objective Campers.

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So, as a change to the moaning about my Death Guard its time to focus on my Night Lords instead!

How are people thinking about Raptors this edition? I've modeled one unit with flamers, but the plasma gun might be e worthy now. Also Warp Talons! From their strange wording they seem to get an attack for each Claw rather than the pair. FAQ already?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
How are people thinking about Raptors this edition? I've modeled one unit with flamers, but the plasma gun might be e worthy now. Also Warp Talons! From their strange wording they seem to get an attack for each Claw rather than the pair. FAQ already?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Speak for yourself. In literally the last game I played I used twin linked meltas to shoot down a flyer, and plasma cannons to fire at a unit that just deep striked.

If you're going to let a single mathematical anomaly sway your opinion, you're not the correct person to talk to.

Rolling a single six with six rolls isnt anomalous. Thats the benefit of twin linked.

Rolling a pen vs armor 12 with 8 + 2D6 isnt anomalous either. Thats the benefit of melta.

Nor is rolling a hit on the scatter dice with three shots anomalous. In fact missing an entire unit of 10 models entirely with three shots would be the anomaly.

 cinnabar wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
How are people thinking about Raptors this edition? I've modeled one unit with flamers, but the plasma gun might be e worthy now. Also Warp Talons! From their strange wording they seem to get an attack for each Claw rather than the pair. FAQ already?

I think Warp Talons are unbelievable. For only 2 points more than a standard CSM, you get a jump pack, lighting claws, deep strike (I forgot the new name), AND you can't be overwatched on the turn you come in on via deep strike. Making a 9 inch charge is risky so you've got to figure out how to get a re-roll on charge distances (perhaps you can deep strike next to a "character" who confers charge re-rols or use one of your stratagems).

 GrenAcid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 GrenAcid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Not the Havocs and Forgefiends you listed though. So I don't have to tackle this later as you're paying for a combination of firepower, durability, and deployment options.
2. You mean the T4 dude that has 3 wounds and doesn't have to fear being ID'd? Not an issue like it was for the last two versions of them.
3. A squad of 10 marines is 130 points for 10 wounds. You're likely adding special and heavy weapons so we will pretend it's 170 for now. That's comparable durability without adding the bonuses of a Rhino.
4. All you need is to kill a small squad and that's it. For Marines on the charge that's a little over 1 dead Marine. For Guardsmen that's almost 3 dead.

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.
You had basically Lascannons, Assault Cannons, the Multi-Melta, and TL Plasma Gun. In a game you'd fire any of those a max of 3 times, which means paying for equipment you aren't using. Then you had 3 Guns that were utterly useless because of the range + being SaP + No Deep Strike Mitigation (TL Melta Gun, TL Flamer, Heavy Flamer), and one that was useless because of the horrible small Blast rules (Plasma Cannon).

Now we have a more defined role. I see them as mid-way-elite killers and superb Objective Campers.

1. They have weaker fire power to those 2, def not durable as Forgefiend or cheap as Havocs, and their only deployment option is in DS
2. Might be true, till we see how many d3 weapons xenos and loyalist can pack.
3. So what now you justify 195 holding unit without a tooth? IDK man.
4. You will bounce back of anything with them.

And Im not sure if I wanna argue with a person who claims DS heavy flamer is useless as well as

And everyone needs to quit talking about how Obliterators used to be Swiss Army Knives. Because they weren't at all.

thats your opinion, lots and I mean lots of people were using and liking Oblits because exacly this reason.
Also we arent eldar, we dont need preciosion tools.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Any idea if Plaguebearers will have more than one attack? After playing them in AoS, they're incredibly underwhelming.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Any idea if Plaguebearers will have more than one attack? After playing them in AoS, they're incredibly underwhelming.

1 attack. Plague swords reroll failed wounds