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 Saber wrote:
It's a matter of preference. The Manticore and the Basilisk hit almost exactly as hard, and while the Manticore averages more shots over the course of the game it's more expensive. The Basilisk is also almost 100% more effective in the late game because it can actually shoot.

I guess the Manticore is ever so slightly better, but there really isn't much difference between the two. Poor design on GW's part to make two units that are essentially the same, but there you go.

I'd argue the front loaded extra damage from the Manticore makes it a better choice. Every model it kills over a basilisk on turns 1 and 2 has a bigger overall effect on the game. Especially in a timed environment like a tournament where the extra round(s) of shooting the Basilisk would normally get might not even happen.

As for the value of Basilisks, someone pointed out earlier that the comparison shouldn't be between a Manticore and Basilisk, but between an Earthshaker battery and a Manticore as you can get 3 guns for the price of two Manticores while using one fewer HS slot.

That said, my current plan is to run 2 Manticores and 2 Earthshaker batteries to maintain long range artillery capabilities after the manticores have finished firing.

The best way to compare it, imo, is as such:

3 Manticores with HB are 399
5 Earthshaker batteries are 400

3 manticores average 21 shots a turn
5 ES average 22.3 shots a turn (and shoot round 5+)

Manticore is better at wounding T5 and T9. T9 is rarely seen, but T5 is out there.

3 Manticores have 33 T7 3+ wounds
5 ES have 35 T7 4+ wounds

Manticores degrade, but ES lose shots first (at 7 wounds vs 11)

Manticores get 9 extra HB shots and can move/assault, useful once they are out of missiles

ES dont run out of missiles.

IMO, the advantage lies ever so slightly with earthshakers purely for the unlimited ammo reason. If I can maintain my conscript blobs I usually will be safe for the game and it is useful to be able to continuously bombard people.

Sometimes there is a matter of financial expense. Sure, I could go out and buy a bunch of Manticores. But do I have that kind of disposable income? Nope. I'll just keep going with the 4 basilisks that I already own, because they work just fine.

Has anyone tried a marauder destroyer in 8th yet it seems a bit good for the points you pay for it?

 Saber wrote:
Poor design on GW's part to make two units that are essentially the same, but there you go.

Wait, when did we start talking about the entire Space Marine codex?

Anyway, I just ordered a basilisk since the manticores still aren't in stock. I figure They're so iconic it can't hurt to have one anyway.

Oldman Lee wrote:
Has anyone tried a marauder destroyer in 8th yet it seems a bit good for the points you pay for it?

I've been using it for a few months. The thing does work. You basically have long range meltagun shots. Along with a lot of other tools. Hard to hit. Heavy bombs. Its a flyer that can take objectives. Doesn't suffer the -1 for moving.

Whats not to like! I see myself continuing to use it for a long time.

 argonak wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Poor design on GW's part to make two units that are essentially the same, but there you go.

Wait, when did we start talking about the entire Space Marine codex?

Anyway, I just ordered a basilisk since the manticores still aren't in stock. I figure They're so iconic it can't hurt to have one anyway.

They were back for a single day about a week ago. They actually had a order quantity limit and still didn't last 24 hours. Whats weird is I also didnt get the restock e-mail and was just browsing when I saw they were back.

RogueApiary wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 Saber wrote:
Poor design on GW's part to make two units that are essentially the same, but there you go.

Wait, when did we start talking about the entire Space Marine codex?

Anyway, I just ordered a basilisk since the manticores still aren't in stock. I figure They're so iconic it can't hurt to have one anyway.

They were back for a single day about a week ago. They actually had a order quantity limit and still didn't last 24 hours. Whats weird is I also didnt get the restock e-mail and was just browsing when I saw they were back.

Its probably better that I invest in a variety of units anyway. Its good to not get too focused or spammy I think.

Anyone else just stop bothering with running conscripts at all lately? Note that when I say this I'm not talking from a competitive standpoint, but more from a boredom one. I pretty much brought them to screen stuff and people have stopped bothering to attack and shoot them entirely. I was running them as if platoons were still around (I.E. I was bringing infantry squads and pcs as well) and opponents would just shoot the other units in my army and lose the objective to a wave of unharmed conscripts. The last 3 games I ran them they didn't take a single casualty, it got that bad.

I've swapped mine out for pure infantry squad armies and have honestly felt like I'm winning more games, I know other players seem to fear them more for some reason, I have no idea why. I've been running variations of the following at a 1,000pts and while my meta is fairly casual even this is proving to be absolutely crushing. I'm about to take the stormtroopers out but they'll be taking out a lot of my most aggressive elements and that also means spamming even more regular guardsmen or just masses of heavy weapon squads. At this point I'm kind of at a loss on how to run an Imperial Guard infantry list without taking intentionally bad options that I don't really have modelled or running vanguard detachments for a veteran only force, but that may be what I have to do at this point.


Essentially I'm just mentally preparing for the fact that we may never get platoons back and conscripts will be nerfed into oblivion because GW is never known for minor tweaks. I've found my infantry holding it's own quite well even in more aggressive playstyles and that the heavy weapons tend to be pretty reliable, for the most part. I would heavily recommend anyone attempting a similar list completely forget about lascannons on their infantry line squads, they just whiff far too much at these numbers to bother. Perhaps at 1500pts or so there'd be enough to bank on but I find they're a bit too specialized for what they do on line infantry. They can hit hard when they want to, but without consistent access to anything more than rerolling ones it's just not enough, not to mention they have a limited pool of preferred targets. Instead I'd recommend Autocannons as they seem to hit a sweet spot and have been extremely reliable for me, even against enemy russes, just due to weight of fire. I know that the mathhammer doesn't exactly support this but the weapon synergizes very well with plasma and essentially just acts like a longer ranged plasma with less AP. Deployed en masse as a weapon in every single squad, they just have a disturbing ability to consistently chip away at things.

Even standard infantry squads are just crazy tough this edition, I've stopped bothering with cover entirely and even taking 75% casualties I'm normally mauling my opponent to force tablings by turn 5/6. I've not seen a single weapon that scared me other than things in our own codex, and even there it's just punisher cannons and variants of it. Another IG player in the area picked up a vulture so maybe he can give me a run for my money but standard guardsmen are just so brutally efficient with proper heavy/special weapon support that I've found little that can stop them when deployed in force. You have less guns than most lists, but they take so much damage to chew through most will be up and firing well into the final turn of the game, usually with a few men here and there, battered remnants of squads down to a couple of men on an autocannon or plasma gun and maybe the sarge left if they're lucky. Usually I find that I maybe kill a few units the first turn but for the most part wear down key targets and cripple them fairly quickly. Then the turn 1/2 deepstrike flank attack happens, I wrap that up by turn 3, and then proceed to hunt down any surviving units in the enemy's half of the table by turn 5/6 and start focusing on objectives. The only list to give me pause is a Raven guard player who is running tons of scouts (ironically at my advice), so far not much else has phased me. I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune in a more cutthroat area but as it stands I'm basically just running variants of old lists and seem to be doing fine. Honestly I'm starting to think that if platoons were brought back we would see infantry squads overshadow conscripts again, they've been that solid in my experience so far, literally their only weakness is being forced to field them in 10 man squads meaning your army tends to be an MSU nightmare.

Another weird thing I'm noticing with 8th, does anyone else feel like IG infantry take far longer to play now? I'm taking less infantry than I used to and yet I swear the game takes far longer. Not just the alternating deployment phase, although that doesn't help, but in the regular game as well. I really miss platoons, having to move, deploy, and fire each squad independently is getting really old. I don't even need to really worry about spacing and yet I feel like it's taking forever to move just due to the fact that every unit is moving independently.

I think infantry squad based lists take a bit longer due to having to do every unit separately - each individual one has to move and shoot itself, and often you have to think about firing special and heavy weapons independently at a separate target. At least with conscripts decisions are simpler. I don't like rolling so many pointless lasgun shots for conscripts though. It certainly feels like it takes too long!

I personally don't think that infantry squads are much weaker than conscripts on the whole - there are definitely advantages to both approaches, and I'd still take them of regular guardsmen went up to 5pts per model like in 7th

I'm with you MrMoustaffa. I don't really think Conscripts are massively better than taking infantry squads. When the nerf to conscripts eventually comes I think many of the players whining about them currently are in for a surprise when the IG armies they face have a fewer models on the board but more fire power and that the change will make very little difference to the outcome of games.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I'm with you MrMoustaffa. I don't really think Conscripts are massively better than taking infantry squads. When the nerf to conscripts eventually comes I think many of the players whining about them currently are in for a surprise when the IG armies they face have a fewer models on the board but more fire power and that the change will make very little difference to the outcome of games.

Oh trust me, conscripts are still better in a competitive sense, I'm mainly just pointing out that at casual level even the humble infantry squad does quite well. I'm mainly chalking up to 3 things.

1. We almost always get our armor saves, means guardsmen in the open are often harder to kill in 8th than guardsmen in cover were in 7th. While infantry squads cost more than conscripts, they're still only one point a model more base and even a pretty decked out squad still comes out to about 6pts per model. This means that while you technically have less guardsmen, you usually end up taking more "useful" ones. I.E. heavy and special weapons. In addition, an infantry squad's firepower remains relatively constant until you deal the last 3 wounds. Being able to take essentially 7 wounds before the special and heavy weapons bite it means that most people just can't afford to focus units down to finish them off. Command points should always be spent to keep units around, both the 2pt inane bravery and the reroll, if only to completely demoralize the opponent when he finally kills a commissar only to realize you had a backup plan. I'm getting pretty confident that my commissars have finished off more of my squads at this point than my opponents.

2. Even a fully decked out squad still puts out 28 lasgun shots with FRFSRF. With BS +4 they get a pretty decent amount of shots and it never ceases to scare people just how many shots a ten man unit can put down if I want them to. Always remember the heavy weapon teams have lasguns and can use them even if the heavy weapon fired. While your pure amount of lasguns is obviously less than conscript spam, they tend to be more consistent and annoying for the opponent due to point 1.

3. Plasma is just absolutely brutal, even at 1 gun a squad with BS 4+, I know I've seen my squads put an unbelievable amount of hurt compared to their weight thanks to plasma. It's not uncommon for me to drop two primaris with a single plasma Gunner, and that's before the rest of the squad even fires. Sometimes I use the "Take Aim" order, sometimes I don't, usually in close range I find it more beneficial to spam FRFSRF unless I know for a fact the squad will survive into the next turn. This still baffles me as to what GW was thinking with IG plasma pricing. Even our "worst" delivery platform for it still feels incredibly efficient using it.

Another amusing thing: for 60 points you can get an infantry squad and a searchlight, which together will have exactly the same stats as a 60 point veteran squad, except that the searchlight is also bringing some spare wounds.

Granted, when those spare wounds are lost they'll take 25% of your damage output with them, but that is likely less than you would have lost had the shots that did it been directed at a veteran squad.

Searchlight? How are you taking a searchlight with an infantry squad?

Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

I've heard of those from before, but they seemed gamey. That sounds way more acceptable as a unit. What are the stats like? I don't have the forgeworld book. I've got a few spare searchlights from sentinels in my bits box, any idea what the base size is meant to be? Heavy weapon base (60mm?) I could put together a proxy pretty easily.

If I was going to bring one though, I'd be putting it next to scions or veterans. They're going to have the weapons I really want to be hitting.

Mmm, four BS2+ volley guns, rerolling 1s. . . that's like 14 S4 AP-2 hits at 24"!

edit: 20 points for T4, 3 wounds, 4+ save. Thats not bad at all. Its got a nasty explode though.

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

Unfortunately scions and elysians can't use one due to regiment restrictions, so unless Creed gets the old Tactical Genius back it can't be used for deep strike shenanigans. Too bad because it would otherwise be perfect for that: it works kind of like a markerlight, it has to be within 48" and LOS of an enemy unit to mark them, but once it does a single friendly infantry unit of the same regiment can get a +1 against the marked target regardless of its distance from the searchlight.

It does work on veterans though, so 2+ re-rolling plasma is possible, it just has to be delivered on foot or in a transport. Might be a way to give a mechanized infantry list a surprising amount of punch, especially if the transports position themselves to block the enemy's long-ranged weapons on the first turn so they can't get LoS on the searchlights until it's too late.

stratigo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

You always overheat on a 1. This was FAQ'd.

Plus FW doesn't even sell those models any more so finding them is going to be next to impossible since they weren't ever a big seller so I would doubt even recasters have one to use as a master.

There are options out there for proxies but I do agree with Argonak, they seem a bit gamey.

 CplPunishment wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

You always overheat on a 1. This was FAQ'd.

Where? I just read the main rules FAQ and couldn't find that. 1's always fail to hit is the only thing similar in the rulebook, except a +1 to hit modifier makes 1's into 2's and therefore no overheat. Just like MWBD makes Teslas proc extra hits on 5's and 6's from the +1 to hit.

Has anyone taken Celestine with an AM army to an ITC tournament. I know both Guard and Celestine have the Imperium keyword but I'm confused as to how best to take her as part of my 2000 pt army. Imperium is under GW factions but ITC are broken into Astra Militarum and Adeptus... Jebus I hate these new names..... Space Marines etc

Does she have to be in a separate detachment. Does the detachment have to be fully formed (i.e. a spearhead, vanguard etc) If so any recommendations as to how to field her alongside my AM,

FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

CaptainO wrote:
Has anyone taken Celestine with an AM army to an ITC tournament. I know both Guard and Celestine have the Imperium keyword but I'm confused as to how best to take her as part of my 2000 pt army. Imperium is under GW factions but ITC are broken into Astra Militarum and Adeptus... Jebus I hate these new names..... Space Marines etc

Does she have to be in a separate detachment. Does the detachment have to be fully formed (i.e. a spearhead, vanguard etc) If so any recommendations as to how to field her alongside my AM,

If you take Celestine in the same detachment as your AM. Your detachment becomes Imperium. If your local area is playing with the previewed chapter approved, your AM troops will lose objective secured, otherwise nothing is different.

You can take her as an Auxiliary Support Detachment for -1 CP. This completely resolves any conflicts caused by not wanting to lose objsec.

You can take her in an Imperium detachment with some of your AM non-troop slot options in order to gain more CP and keep objsec (probably a Vanguard or Spearhead).

Just don't have one Imperium detachment with AM Troops and an AM detachment with AM Troops unless you're prepared to make them visually distinct from one another.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

 Lothar wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

I could go into detail about why that isn't the case for those models, but it seems your mind is set upon it and so be it. I don't want to argue.

Isn't it equally the case that you see more of the strong GW models played than the weaker ones? Not seeing many deathstrikes, bane wolves or sergeant kell models at the moment! A lot of FW stuff is strong, a lot seems pointless or weak.

The good guard forgeworld units do seem to be significantly ahead of the power curve, though. They're optimal choices in competitive guard lists, despite GW guard being (in my opinion) the strongest army of 8th. It shows that the FW guard stuff is pretty good for its points.

The main thing that concerns me is that GW are balancing their armies for a better game (e.g. they toned down brims, razorwings and stormravens somewhat). I suspect they'll nerf a lot of the strong units or choices in the guard army when their codex drops to help bring more balance to the game. I strongly suspect forge world won't do this, or at least not any time soon. Then there will be even more of a power gulf between the good FW units and the GW guard counterparts.

RogueApiary wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Has anyone taken Celestine with an AM army to an ITC tournament. I know both Guard and Celestine have the Imperium keyword but I'm confused as to how best to take her as part of my 2000 pt army. Imperium is under GW factions but ITC are broken into Astra Militarum and Adeptus... Jebus I hate these new names..... Space Marines etc

Does she have to be in a separate detachment. Does the detachment have to be fully formed (i.e. a spearhead, vanguard etc) If so any recommendations as to how to field her alongside my AM,

If you take Celestine in the same detachment as your AM. Your detachment becomes Imperium. If your local area is playing with the previewed chapter approved, your AM troops will lose objective secured, otherwise nothing is different.

You can take her as an Auxiliary Support Detachment for -1 CP. This completely resolves any conflicts caused by not wanting to lose objsec.

You can take her in an Imperium detachment with some of your AM non-troop slot options in order to gain more CP and keep objsec (probably a Vanguard or Spearhead).

Just don't have one Imperium detachment with AM Troops and an AM detachment with AM Troops unless you're prepared to make them visually distinct from one another.

It looks like ITC tournaments don't use the Imperium Faction Keyword so that first option is out. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16p0r1w3IHR2xGrIGpWREMhs9Amnqzbti6TGG8-xiSyE/edit#gid=0

I hadn't thought of taking here on her own (maybe with her bodyguards) as a Auxiliary support detachment. -1 CP isnt the end of the world especially since I'm running a brigade.

What would be the cheapest (pointswise) Adeptus Sororitas detachement containing Celestine that would make use of the two acts of faith. I already run a Priest so that can take up an elite spot.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Isn't it equally the case that you see more of the strong GW models played than the weaker ones? Not seeing many deathstrikes, bane wolves or sergeant kell models at the moment! A lot of FW stuff is strong, a lot seems pointless or weak.

The good guard forgeworld units do seem to be significantly ahead of the power curve, though. They're optimal choices in competitive guard lists, despite GW guard being (in my opinion) the strongest army of 8th. It shows that the FW guard stuff is pretty good for its points.

The main thing that concerns me is that GW are balancing their armies for a better game (e.g. they toned down brims, razorwings and stormravens somewhat). I suspect they'll nerf a lot of the strong units or choices in the guard army when their codex drops to help bring more balance to the game. I strongly suspect forge world won't do this, or at least not any time soon. Then there will be even more of a power gulf between the good FW units and the GW guard counterparts.

Thats a very good point. Could be a problem even more than now.