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Really? That's your sole takeaway from what I said? That was not the main point of what I was trying to get across.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Really? That's your sole takeaway from what I said? That was not the main point of what I was trying to get across.

Ok and? It's a point you made, and it's a point I refuted. Missing the part of the forum rules where I have to respond to everything you say.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!

I'm really surprised that I have to keep saying this same thing in various threads: there aren't as many 30K players as 40K players, and for many of us, much of the time our only option is to play against a 40K player. Splitting a playerbase is never a good thing. And now there is an additional barrier to entry for prospective 30K players by having to buy another expensive FW book.

I accept that sucks for you.

But i think you may need to promote what you love more to get more 30k games - it isn't so difficult to make a space marine army for legion play with so many units having paralels during the HH, most 40k marine players i know have the models needed already.
And the guard, cuckstodes and SoS players now i think about it.

If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game.
HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around.
It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I'm really surprised that some people don't like the idea of a custom HH ruleset; i see it as the final liberation of 30k and anything is possible!

See, this is true in theory - FW are in total control of their rules so they COULD write a modern, fast paced wargame with even better rules and gameplay than what 8ed looks to have.

I just don't see that happening with something based on 7ed.

At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.

8ed and the marketing around this is a sign that even GW realise this, that they've seen the newer, better games out there and have realised that their core game is too big and daunting for people to get into. Not even GW admit any more that the reason to play 7ed was because of the great rules. Maybe there ARE people out there who really think the 7ed ruleset is a good one - maybe they've even played AoS, X-Wing, Afterlife, Infinity, etc etc and still honestly think that 7ed 40k is the better ruleset. But I don't think there are many!

I agree that FW could take 7ed and streamline it into a good game, but I don't think they will. For me, that would require:

- Removing entirely the concept that my 'X' unit deletes your 'Y' unit. Kraken Penetrators straight up removing things. One-shotting vehicles should be really rare. Deep striking AT instantly removing bits of the army isn't fun.
- Really, radically changing the psychic phase, so it feels less like a game outside the game.
- Removing the weird jump that makes Superheavies instantly vastly better than normal vehicles, and thus the gross imbalance with things like Knights.
- Reducing the number of special rules and exceptions across the board to speed things up. Primarchs have, what, ten special rules? And then all their equipment does, etc

Those are just some examples, but all of them would require reprinting the Red Books if they were changed, at which point you might as well switch to 8ed. So I doubt that will actually happen. It leaves me, and a lot of others, in a difficult position:

- Play 40k, with it's cartoony kid-aimed background but a modern ruleset.
- Play 30k, in the background I like, but with much longer games and crappy rules.

:(

Couldn't agree more - vehicles need some wider variance in damage results - i recon a d12 damage chart could give enough variety of results other than 'wrecked' or 'explodes'.
I used to love the way vehicles could throw a track and career out of control in 3rd edition.

Id also be tempted to stop glancing hits removing a hull point and i'd probably replace it with a roll on the d12 damage chart with a negative modifier to mute its effects appropriately.

And i wouldn't have 'rolling a 1 results in nothing' because there's nothing more annoying after getting your solitary damage roll than having nothing happen!

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game.
HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around.
It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.

But what If they play Xenos?
I have always wanted to try 30k, but the idea of marines against marines against more marines... meh. Different folks, different tastes.

I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

AOS didnt really suck, it had great ideas of only really needing the warscrolls to play, of stuff like heros feeling LIKE HEROS and so forth.
It failed because it had no inherant balancing factor

 Galas wrote:

DaemonJellybaby wrote:
If you are struggling to find HH games, find anyone who is slightly even annoyed by the Primaris marines and offer them a game.
HH is a game that uses rules they already know, has infinitely better fluff and models they already own, and thier space marines are still the best infantry around.
It should not be hard to persuade them to play at least a trial game if you already own both red books and a copy of 7th.

But what If they play Xenos?
I have always wanted to try 30k, but the idea of marines against marines against more marines... meh. Different folks, different tastes.

Sorry, I meant any space marine player who is annoyed by primaris.
I think 30k should be thought of as a pseudo-historical game where it makes sense for marines to be fighting other marines, as opposed to 40k where its not quite right for two factions of space marines to be infighting.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

AOS didnt really suck, it had great ideas of only really needing the warscrolls to play, of stuff like heros feeling LIKE HEROS and so forth.
It failed because it had no inherant balancing factor

Plus the "if you have a beard you get instant hits" bull crap

 ArbitorIan wrote:


At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.


:(

Agreed completely.

I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.

Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...

 kronk wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:


At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.


:(

Agreed completely.

I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.

Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...

Yeah... I've heard tale of the "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...

 kronk wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:


At the moment, I play Heresy mostly because I like the setting, the armies, the look and feel of playing a game. But the actual gameplay is a drag. The rule system is bloated and old-fashioned. It takes ages to do everything and there are so many special rules that remembering everything single thing in-game feels like a big weight on your shoulders. FW is better at balance than GW but the game is still the weak point IMO. At the moment, I endure the game so that I can play in the background I enjoy.


:(

Agreed completely.

I would add Quad Whatever with Phosphex Shells to your first bullet.

Some dick brought 3 units of 3 to the fething "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...

Wow.

I suppose thats the difference between tournaments and campaigns - people are going to try to 'win' a tournament.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.

It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.

It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.

Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.

 Tamereth wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.

It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.

Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.

Though do people REALLY use sergeants like that? That makes sense only pretty much if you are facing AP3 weapons. OTher than that...In average you save 1 guy from dying by sacrificing your vet serg. PRice of extra guy? PRice of artificer armour.

Rather than vet serg problem comes from IC's and anything with a reroll.

We just basically ignore the character at the front. Okay they get bit extra help there but less of an issue.

What I would like them to import to 7th ed:

-Movement stat
-Tweak some weapons(boost heavy bolter, take a second look at phosphex quad mortars etc)
-Could get by with ASM over AP
-Multiple damage

Albeit several of those are heftier changes than they are going to do but in long run if FW were to stick with 7th ed as a base those would be doable changes(and ones we probably introduce ourselves for our home games)

 Tamereth wrote:

Spoiler:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.

It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.

Yer veteran sergeants in artificer armour running around in front of a units catching bullets is one of the "gamiest" things that comes up in 30K. A better way of dealing with units with units with multiple armour save values is needed, but I've never really come up with a way that helps without really slowing down the game.

Easy - shots hit the models which form the basic members of that unit, and have a reverse-functioning 'look out sir' roll to trade shots off to another model (sarge or independent character) if you want to.
Presicion shots allow the firing unit to place shots on a non-basic squad member within a unit or character which has joined the unit.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I bet in 1-2 years HH will be in 8th ed rules. GW/FW are just seeing how it 8th sells before changing HH. If 8th sucks like AoS did before the hand book (don't play just read the net), they don't want ot kill both franchises.

I would really like to believe they'll make the switch, but I somehow doubt they'll make a new 7th edition rulebook and then switch a year down the road.

It's a game of wait and see really. I swear, if they just change wound allocation to not be the abuseable mini-game of "catch all the bullets" it would go a long way towards making it a more enjoyable rules set.

It's only free money for FW if they print some 8th edition red books later on.

I half expect this decision to be in part to Alan Blighs illness.

Its been widely told upon his sad passing that it was a short battle with cancer. He appeared at the HH open day in Feb and said HH would go to 8th. FW followed up and changed the descriptions on their books in line with this announcement.

With Alan in hospital for a period of time (getting treatment of some kind I assume), FW would make a logical choice to hold off on 8th for HH and its announced that it would not change over straight away in the initial brief of 8th ed.

This 7.5 edition by FW direct seems to me like a stop gap while they sort out the studio after Alans passing.

I expect 7.5 to be an updated print of the core rules with the FAQ rolled in (watch multi bombing disappear!).

That said - I give it a year before we get 8th ed HH. 2 Tops.

People saying at least Angelus gives us all the legions in 7th ed seem to have also forgotten white scars!

 djones520 wrote:


Yeah... I've heard tale of the "friendly" tournament at AdeptiCon...

Yeah, I'll never play in that one again. One of the organizers is the worst TFG player I've ever had to play against. It's not run by the normal AdeptiCon Horus Heresy guys. THOSE guys are fething amazing and put on a hell of a tournament. I didn't know that they weren't running the friendly. From now on, I'll stick with their events.

Yeah, like I said in the FW rumors thread, I think AB's passing is having and will have an enormous effect on the HH line.

After initially being very frustrated by the news about the ruleset, I decided I should really give them the benefit of the doubt and respect that some "wrong" short-term decisions may need to be made to give them room to make the right long-term decisions.

The thing that kinda scares me about Alan's passing is he was the main writer for the Horus Heresy. I've heard that the reason Book VII Inferno took so long was due to his illness, and that eventually, it was "rushed" out to at least get it out before 8th edition. Anyone that has Book VII can tell you it's the worst book in the HH series. It needed some massive editing and play testing. The released book was a poor reflection on Forge World and not indicative of a book over a year in development. If this is the expected quality of the next books without Alan... it's going to be bad.

The worst possible thing that could happen is a Matt Ward style writer brought in from the main studio to finish out the series. If I want to read bad Horus Heresy fan fiction, I'll go visit Reddit. For the rules, I want them to walk the razors edge between "useless" and "Over Powered", and yet still maintain the unique flavor and identity of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. These two Legions will be the most difficult to bring to 30K. Their TO&E, tactics, strategy, and even appearance was all totally different from their 40K incarnations. For the Blood Angels- no Black Rage, mild Red Thirst, perfectionists much like the Emperor's Children, no Death Company, no Librarians, no Chaplains... The Dark Angels were even more different- no Death Company, no "tri-wing", all black armor, no Inner Circle, no hunting for the fallen...

It's like the only things we really know about HH Blood Angels is their quest for perfection in warfare, and that the Dark Angels wore black armor.

After Book VIII? Well, all that will be left for the Legions are White Scars. Who knows how long it will be before we see them? Will book IX be the siege of Terra with the Emperor, White Scars, and updated rules for the Legions that assaulted/defended Terra? And then the conversion over to 8th? Or will it be Book VIII, and then conversion over to 8th? Right now, I bet not even Forge World knows.

 Tamwulf wrote:
The thing that kinda scares me about Alan's passing is he was the main writer for the Horus Heresy. I've heard that the reason Book VII Inferno took so long was due to his illness, and that eventually, it was "rushed" out to at least get it out before 8th edition. Anyone that has Book VII can tell you it's the worst book in the HH series. It needed some massive editing and play testing. The released book was a poor reflection on Forge World and not indicative of a book over a year in development. If this is the expected quality of the next books without Alan... it's going to be bad.

The worst possible thing that could happen is a Matt Ward style writer brought in from the main studio to finish out the series. If I want to read bad Horus Heresy fan fiction, I'll go visit Reddit. For the rules, I want them to walk the razors edge between "useless" and "Over Powered", and yet still maintain the unique flavor and identity of the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. These two Legions will be the most difficult to bring to 30K. Their TO&E, tactics, strategy, and even appearance was all totally different from their 40K incarnations. For the Blood Angels- no Black Rage, mild Red Thirst, perfectionists much like the Emperor's Children, no Death Company, no Librarians, no Chaplains... The Dark Angels were even more different- no Death Company, no "tri-wing", all black armor, no Inner Circle, no hunting for the fallen...

It's like the only things we really know about HH Blood Angels is their quest for perfection in warfare, and that the Dark Angels wore black armor.

After Book VIII? Well, all that will be left for the Legions are White Scars. Who knows how long it will be before we see them? Will book IX be the siege of Terra with the Emperor, White Scars, and updated rules for the Legions that assaulted/defended Terra? And then the conversion over to 8th? Or will it be Book VIII, and then conversion over to 8th? Right now, I bet not even Forge World knows.

We know a ton about the Dark Angels. The Black Library books have been hugely important in divulging some details. The 6 Wings for one. We do have a Deathwing. We do have a Ravenwing. We also have an Ironwing, Dreadwing, Stormwing, and Firewing. We know they have access to technology that none of the other legions do, such as a Glaive variant that fires void shots. Their acid rounds for their heavy bolters, and unique plasma weaponry. We know that after the coming of the Lion, they became an extremely secretive organizations, as Guilliman has lamented many times. They have a lot of pride in being the 1st. The Legion made before all others. The Legion that all others are modeled on.

Yeah, I don't think near-term things like the remaining Legions or Angelus book are the troublesome spots.

The issue IMO is more with the events on the chart that haven't been covered yet or revealed, where his guidance and vision would have been key.



The plan as of earlier this year was for 15 to 20 black books. And it almost seems like it has to be that many IF they continue the plan. Angelus is book 8, and they've talked about a Mars book since forever. WS have to fit in somewhere. They still need to cover the Shadow Crusade and Imperial Secundus, if not even more events. Then there's the Solar War and Terra, which will almost certainly be multiple books.

It's very sad that Alan Bligh won't be around to see HH to Terra, and that we won't get to see his full vision for it.

Yeah man, i had an 'obi wan kenobi/destruction of Alderaan' moment when i found out.

The burden now falls to John French to keep the flavour of the heresy consistent (assuming he still works for FW)

its great that FW are going to keep 7th, even better for people who dont want to shift to 8th for whatever reason, this includes all the xenos players.

and with a bit of luck this will encourage the community to do what they did with 8th fantasy, fix the rules ourselves for 7th, i would love to see a 7.5ed or 9th age for 30/40k

So in terms of the two forgeworld index books coming out with the release of 8th, are these so you can use all fw models with 8th edition rules?.

Or are the new fw index books the 7.5/7th edition still?

Thanks all.

Shinzra wrote:
So in terms of the two forgeworld index books coming out with the release of 8th, are these so you can use all fw models with 8th edition rules?.

Or are the new fw index books the 7.5/7th edition still?

Thanks all.

Those new books are so that 40K players can use FW models in 40K. All of the rules in the current Red Books will still be valid for 30K use.

Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?

Cheers