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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





8th edition is officially unbalanced and broken.

That IK has a power of 23.

Tactical squads have a power of 5.

That one imperial knight is only worth about 4 1/2 five man tactical squads.

We're looking at an IK in the 300 points range.

I guess I'll just have to add Imperial Knights to the "list of factions I won't be playing against," right along with Eldar and Tau.

I'm expecting that the wraithknight will be similar to the IK.

you, GW.

you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 19:19:31


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Traditio wrote:

I'm expecting that the wraithknight will be similar to the IK.

Probably, although it might have slightly less wounds (like 20ish) and be cheaper
And they can also use the Super-heavy Detahcment, so yeah, 3-5 WKs with no tax

And their guns will either do d6 Mortal wounds or just be Damage 6.

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 19:29:52


   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Galef wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

I'm expecting that the wraithknight will be similar to the IK.

Probably, although it might have slightly less wounds (like 20ish) and be cheaper
And they can also use the Super-heavy Detahcment, so yeah, 3-5 WKs with no tax

And their guns will either do d6 Mortal wounds or just be Damage 6.

-


Since you seem to be so excited about this:

I would love to hear from you why you think this is a good idea.

How is this balanced?

How the is an Imperial Knight as described equal to 4 1/2 five man tactical squads?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 Traditio wrote:
8th edition is officially unbalanced and broken.

That IK has a power of 23.

Tactical squads have a power of 5.

That one imperial knight is only worth about 4 1/2 five man tactical squads.

We're looking at an IK in the 300 points range.

I guess I'll just have to add Imperial Knights to the "list of factions I won't be playing against," right along with Eldar and Tau.

I'm expecting that the wraithknight will be similar to the IK.

you, GW.

you.


Nice to see you're still capable of making rational decisions based on knowledge of the rules rather than snap decisions based on a small portion. Never change, man. Never change.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





People need to stop repeating the tired

"ANYTHING CAN HURT THEM! SO ITS OKAY!"

because unless you're using Anti Tank, you will need a few hundred shots to kill one. Maybe even near 1k shots.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Talamare wrote:
People need to stop repeating the tired

"ANYTHING CAN HURT THEM! SO ITS OKAY!"

because unless you're using Anti Tank, you will need a few hundred shots to kill one. Maybe even near 1k shots.


Boltguns and lasguns are exactly as effective against IKs, not accounting for ballistic skill.

It would take:

2/3 X 1/6 X 1/3 X 1/24 boltgun shots at BS 4 to take down an IK.

That equals 2/1296, or 648.

It would take 648 boltgun shots to take down an IK.

Again, I repeat:

you, GW.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Since a Knight has 24 wounds, I wonder how many wounds a Stompa has?!?

A straight conversion of HP would give it 48 wounds, but that's clearly not how they're doing it, since the Morkanaught was 18 wounds. Still, it's got to be over 30.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Traditio wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

I'm expecting that the wraithknight will be similar to the IK.

Probably, although it might have slightly less wounds (like 20ish) and be cheaper
And they can also use the Super-heavy Detahcment, so yeah, 3-5 WKs with no tax

And their guns will either do d6 Mortal wounds or just be Damage 6.

-


Since you seem to be so excited about this:

I would love to hear from you why you think this is a good idea.

How is this balanced?

How the is an Imperial Knight as described equal to 4 1/2 five man tactical squads?


Given that all your upgrades are free if you're using "power level" the Knight isn't 4.5 naked Tactical Squads, he's 4.5 Tactical Squads with lascannons and combi-melta/powerfist sergeants. So he could also be a 550-ish-pt Knight rather than a 300pt Knight.

Also it dies really hard to massed powerfists and you can charge out of Deep Strike now. Heck, if Force Weapon just means "d3-damage-to-anything" like the melee teaser suggested it won't take very many Grey Knights to punch a Knight to death. Hammerhand up and go thwacking.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





EnTyme 726 wrote:Nice to see you're still capable of making rational decisions based on knowledge of the rules rather than snap decisions based on a small portion. Never change, man. Never change.


We already know enough to call it.

We know what the power of a tactical squad is.

We know what an individual tactical marine costs, points wise.

We know the weapons profiles of lascannons and krak grenades.

We know the cost of a multimelta.

We already have the damage chart.

We have plenty of information already to know that IKs and wraithknights are going to be game breaking.

Making it equal to 4 1/2 squads of marines is a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote:Given that all your upgrades are free if you're using "power level" the Knight isn't 4.5 naked Tactical Squads, he's 4.5 Tactical Squads with lascannons and combi-melta/powerfist sergeants. So he could also be a 550-ish-pt Knight rather than a 300pt Knight.


Knowing GW, we can't make that assumption.

Also it dies really hard to massed powerfists


No, it doesn't.

That's just wrong.

Do you know how many power fist strikes it would take to take down an IK as described?

54.

54 power fist strikes to take down a single IK.

And how much do you think a power fist is going to cost?

We know what a multimelta costs.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 19:44:49


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Roknar wrote:
Any chance a khorne lord of skull is sick of costing 888? lol


I'd rather they just make it WORTH the 888 points

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Hypothetically question for Traditio: what is the tipping point for you if too many armies go on your "list"?
For example, if over half the armies in 8E have something you don't like and go on your "not gonna play" list, wouldn't it just make sense not to play 40K at all?

Just saying.

If everything is broken, nothing is.

-

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




When winter hits and it snows around here again, I need to remember to open this thread and just dump all the salt in it on my driveway instead of buying it. Thanks for saving me aboit fifty bucks Traditio.

OT my best buddy is just pants off hog wild about this. He loves his knights but never gets to play them. Now that everything effectively has gauss and anti-tank weapons aren't fething around he's looking forward to playing with his house of freeblades and I'm looking forward to dismantlibg them with my boyz.

Should be fun all around, you know, for those of us who don't blow a gasket at th drop of a pin.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Hey Tradito. That knight has 4 attacks. That means it kills 4 marines a turn in close combat, plus maybe d6 from shooting. So that's, let's see... call it seven Marines a turn.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Galef wrote:If everything is broken, nothing is.


Except, we already have the stats for rubric marines and tactical squads.

Everything is not broken. Those things, so far as we can see, are more or less fine.

IKs are broken.

I mean, I would love to hear you try to explain to me why they're not.

But I don't think you can.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think I will avoid playing against Lords of War.

or should I say... I'm not going to play Apocalypse


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

They kill, at ABSOLUTE MOST, 10 Marines a turn.

More likely 5 or so, considering actual hit rolls.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 JNAProductions wrote:
Hey Tradito. That knight has 4 attacks. That means it kills 4 marines a turn in close combat, plus maybe d6 from shooting. So that's, let's see... call it seven Marines a turn.


While being practically invincible.

Yeah. That should be more than power 23.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Traditio wrote:
Galef wrote:If everything is broken, nothing is.


Except, we already have the stats for rubric marines and tactical squads.

Everything is not broken. Those things, so far as we can see, are more or less fine.

IKs are broken.

I mean, I would love to hear you try to explain to me why they're not.

But I don't think you can.


I'm still confused as to why you've taken "an Imperial Knight has the same 'power-level' cost as 22.5 Tactical Marines" and chosen to read it as "an Imperial Knight has the same points cost as 22.5 naked Tactical Marines" rather than "an Imperial Knight has the same points cost as 22.5 Tactical Marines with every upgrade they can lay their hands on."

Plus the whole "how many bolters does it take to kill the IK?" thing instead of "how many weapons that are actually effective against vehicles does it take to kill the IK?"

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Traditio is insane as usual. This is fine.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Because, let's see... That's 4.5 Lascannons, for 3 hits, for 2 wounds through his 5+ Invuln, for 7 wounds dealt a turn. Just on Lascannons.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





It's funny that they started with in current 40k you needed to be able to deal with that kind of super heavy or not and games were win/loose boring either way. Then they introduced a T8 121 wound list lol.

It's not so bad tho I think it's really there so crazy people can play 5 knights vs 5 riptides or 5 baneblade vs 5 monoliths/stomped whatever. I don't think they expect a full infantry list to try to compete lol

The idea of balancing an all lrbt division vs knights however is interesting. I don't think this is broken and we all knew knight armies would remain viable. Crucify me but I don't think lists of 5 super heavies belong in tournaments :/ then again I don't really care that much about that just Wether it dominates meta
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Those marines geared up will at a minimum cripple an ik.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





AnomanderRake wrote:I'm still confused as to why you've taken "an Imperial Knight has the same 'power-level' cost as 22.5 Tactical Marines" and chosen to read it as "an Imperial Knight has the same points cost as 22.5 naked Tactical Marines" rather than "an Imperial Knight has the same points cost as 22.5 Tactical Marines with every upgrade they can lay their hands on."


I fully grant that this is a possibility. And I'm certainly hoping that this is what they did.

But I have my doubts.

Even so, this would mean that 1 IK = roughly a little more than 3 fully upgraded T-Sons squads.

Does that sound right to you?

I mean....maybe.

But here's the thing:

The power level for an IK could easily include all possible upgrades that it can get.

So we could easily end up with a "discount" IK when it comes to actual points costs.

Whatever the case, I'm not optimistic.

Yes, it's foreseeable that the IK could end up being more or less balanced in practice.

But I'm not expecting it at all.

All indications so far are reading as a complete balance catastrophe.

Plus the whole "how many bolters does it take to kill the IK?" thing instead of "how many weapons that are actually effective against vehicles does it take to kill the IK?"


648 boltgun shots.

54 krak missiles.

Over 20 lascannons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

How long would it take an imperial knight to chew thru 23 tac marines arranged in 4 groups of 5 and one group of three?

First shot into a group:
3.5 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1 = 1.94

Second shot into the group (now that it has less than five)
2 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 1 = 1.1

So about three rounds, so we will give the tac squads las cannons, every three rounds you remove one of the five las cannons. Since we did the math on the other page by the time the knight kills his first las cannon, he is below half wounds.

So a knight errant can't beat that many tac marines in shooting competition, and would need to close into CC, but as soon as he starts moving he takes a penalty to his shooting. I'm sure someone will come up with faster ways for him to kill marines, such as adding a carapice mounted missile launcher and split firing, but there is no way he is doing it in less than 5, and i suspect ti will take closer to 7 or 8 and he is getting jacked up along the way.

The problem with traditito and other similar posters is that they haven't internalized the lessons we've seen from 8th ed reveals, first among them is that template weapons were a crutch and no longer are auto win against infantry. It's the same with the imperial guard sky is falling crowd, their crutch is gone, and they haven't quite grasped the concept that in 8th ed quantity has a quality all it's own. They have been working on this for a year and a half, it would be a fairly large act of hubris to assume you instantly spot a mistake they didn't think about in the prior year and a half.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 20:04:31


Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




20 lascannons is fragile compared to a stimtide and a stimtide costs a bit more than a fully geared tac squad. These iks are fine. They cost twice as much and have half the durability of stimtide. This math is a giant i told you so for all the tau players. Your big suits are 100% busted in 7th ed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 20:05:07


 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







20 lascannon is easily doable if we go by the noncompetitive power ldvels.

4 lascannon shots per turn, combimelta, powerfist on charge.

Get it down to half health before it hits you should be possible. At which point it loses 25% effectiveness. I'll take those odds

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

21 Lascannons.

14 Hits, at BS 4.

9.8ish wounds, after the save.

Over 30 wounds dealt.

Tradito, your math is just plain wrong. It only takes less than 18 Lascannons.

12 hits.

8 wounds after the saves.

28 wounds dealt.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Traditio wrote:
...But I'm not expecting it at all.

All indications so far are reading as a complete balance catastrophe...


So...business as usual with regards to GW?

Were you actually expecting anything else?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Can someone tell me what is wrong with this Tradito guy?

4 Tac Marine squads, that's 8 Meltaguns, 4 Power fists, and that's assuming we can't take Heavy Weaps in 5 man squads too.

IKs seem underpowered.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, this thing is basically riptide level vs small arms and notable weaker to heavy weapons. Oh, and gets weaker as it takes damage, which downs its firepower later.

The price looks to be in the right ballpark, at least from what we know so far. If anything, I'd say it may not have enough firepower to justify the price, but honestly that depends a lot on whether the new stomp still grants and extra hits and if it doesn't take snap shots for moving, plus the different variations may be better.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 20:14:57


 
   
 
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