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Quick question for the group here.

If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?

 Pogman42 wrote:
Quick question for the group here.

If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?

That depends. Are you going to get markerlight from elsewhere? Generally, having at least a few marker drones dropping in with suits is a great way to protect them and make sure you get at least one hit.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore

Breachers arent used as just one unit. If you are going to go with breachers, you have to have multiple units.

Even then they're squishy enough that you're going to lose them in droves the turn after disembarking, assuming you don't lose a passel of them prior to getting on target because their Devilfish gets popped. If you're going to drop 225-ish points on the Breachers and DF you need to build a list that provides the opponent with more pressing things to shoot at than the DF. Assuming you're taking two units that 450-500 points spent on two transports and 20 dudes (that's about 25% of a list right there. That leaves me with build questions...

1. What does the rest if that list looks like if it's going to distract fire form the DF?
2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?

I'm not trying to convince anyone not to take Breachers, I'm just curious what kind of lists people are taking them in.

 Fueli wrote:

 Pogman42 wrote:
Quick question for the group here.

If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?

That depends. Are you going to get markerlight from elsewhere? Generally, having at least a few marker drones dropping in with suits is a great way to protect them and make sure you get at least one hit.

Well, i've gone 2 units of 7 units of 7 pathfinders sitting in my backfield. (though 2 in each squad have ion rifles instead of markerlights). So I might have it covered, but they also might not have LoS to nail the target. So I guess this really is a question of redundancy.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?

I think Vespids are amazing and way better than Breachers in any form. I'm fielding 9 for now and I think I'll get more at some point.

 Haechi wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?

I think Vespids are amazing and way better than Breachers in any form. I'm fielding 9 for now and I think I'll get more at some point.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree - I want to field a bunch. My only problem is that I don't really care for the minis. I was considering doing some sort of converted Drone thingummy to use instead. Also, they're out of stock online for me, and have been for a while. Hmm... I think they add some nice visual difference to a Tau list too.

@Fenris-77

You can find how I made my proxy Vespids here. It's not a cheap kitbash, but I think it works great.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/735055.page#9531809

 Haechi wrote:
@Fenris-77

You can find how I made my proxy Vespids here. It's not a cheap kitbash, but I think it works great.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/735055.page#9531809

I like it, and yeah, not cheap. I might prefer more of a backpack look, straps and whatnot, but that's doable with greenstuff. I've seen a couple of jetpack bits from 3rd parties that might work too. Thanks! After seeing those I'm pretty sure I want to convert my own from Tau parts. One way or another they'll get into my army.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thing about breachers is the invul is a trap. Even if you get it, its just a 5++ and its the easiest ability to pick off since its not a character and its not attached to the unit.
Theyre better off not even taking it and just putting the points elsewhere. Even with the invul they tend to just die after they come out of a fish anyway, either from charges or return fire just eating through it. Causing 10 damage to T3 models with a 5++ isnt that tough to do.
If they can get the whole unit within 5" of something its probably going to be shredded though. So in a sense they can be considered a unit deleter...that costs an arm and a leg to do it and gives your enemy about 2 turns to pop the devilfish before it does anything.
i'm glad i only bought 1 unit of them. I dont see myself using them anymore

Breachers arent used as just one unit. If you are going to go with breachers, you have to have multiple units.

Even then they're squishy enough that you're going to lose them in droves the turn after disembarking, assuming you don't lose a passel of them prior to getting on target because their Devilfish gets popped. If you're going to drop 225-ish points on the Breachers and DF you need to build a list that provides the opponent with more pressing things to shoot at than the DF. Assuming you're taking two units that 450-500 points spent on two transports and 20 dudes (that's about 25% of a list right there. That leaves me with build questions...

1. What does the rest if that list looks like if it's going to distract fire form the DF?
2. Would 30 Vespids not be a more reliable expenditure of the same points? Similar (better IMO) shooting profile, guaranteed 1st turn on target?

I'm not trying to convince anyone not to take Breachers, I'm just curious what kind of lists people are taking them in.

It helps that Devilfish are actually good this edition. I think it's 127 points for a Fish with gun drones.

Breachers are a good counter unit too. Keep them mid field in the devilfish and when an enemy comes close pile out and blast them. They work rather well with Darkstrider too. Lower a T7 vehicle to 6 to wound on 4's, or lower a T4 unit to 3 to wound on 2's


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pogman42 wrote:
Quick question for the group here.

If i'm deep striking a unit of 2 suits with 3 CIBs, 1 drone controller sarge with only 2 CIBs, and their accompanying drones, would it be worthwhile to break up the drones between gun and marker (to get those re-roll 1's on the overcharge) or should I keep them all gun?

I like a squad of 3 or 4 suits with 2 CIBs and an ATS. The extra AP really helps, especially when you're overcharging it against vehicles. Saves 8ppm too. I tend to run shield drones with my crisis suits and teams of gun drones separately.

Warriors really, really need to all be given Pulse Pistols. This could really help our close combat issue without breaking thematics.

Yeah, I don't mind the DF at 127 - 12 dice, even at close range, isn't bad at all. For me it's more about build. If the only big targets in your list are a couple of Devil Fish they're going to get pounded fast. So, really, by taking them at all you;re also (mostly) committing to taking some other similar units to help spread the AT love around. Mind you, the DF isn't that scary, so any selection of other suits should probably do the trick - anything that makes the opponent make choices about his target priority with certain weapons. He isn't going to make a mistake unless you give him the opportunity is my thinking.

I also love that the DF has 'For the Greater Good' - the extra 12 dice worth of overwatch could be helpful.

Wakshaani wrote:
Warriors really, really need to all be given Pulse Pistols. This could really help our close combat issue without breaking thematics.

I used to think like that too, but... we can leave melee any time. If you have Darkstrider nearby, one of those retreating units can fire back - and even if you don't, you'll open those enemy units to your firepower elsewhere.

Pulse pistol plink shot won't really do much against any enemy. Remember, you don't fire them on your Fight phase, but on your Shooting phase if you are in melee

Im new to tau, but i cant find the difference (if any) or what it is.

When taking a tidewall, what is the tidewall defense platform?

Is it a 2nd wall? is it the place they can stand? it really doesnt say in the rules.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Im new to tau, but i cant find the difference (if any) or what it is.

When taking a tidewall, what is the tidewall defense platform?

Is it a 2nd wall? is it the place they can stand? it really doesnt say in the rules.

it's the roundy thing without any special thing.
We have:
Shieldline - long piece with blueish wall
Gunrig - round piece with weapon
Droneport - round piece with 4 slots for drones

Thus leaving the defense platform, which can be taken by the Shieldline

Oh i see its an extra rule on the Gunrig.

I think i'd rather just have a 2nd wall

So how do Mortal Wounds work with Savior Protocols from Drones. Say an enemy unit cast smite on a crisis suit unit and inflicts 3 Mortal Wounds. Say there are 3 gun drones within 3". Do I allocate all three mortal wounds at the same time to a single gun drone and then reduce the damage to 1 Mortal Wound via Savior Protocols and thus slaying only 1 gun drone?

OR do I instead allocate the 3 mortal wounds 1 at a time, thus slaying all three drones?

 wyomingfox wrote:
So how do Mortal Wounds work with Savior Protocols from Drones. Say an enemy unit cast smite on a crisis suit unit and inflicts 3 Mortal Wounds. Say there are 3 gun drones within 3". Do I allocate all three mortal wounds at the same time to a single gun drone and then reduce the damage to 1 Mortal Wound via Savior Protocols and thus slaying only 1 gun drone?

OR do I instead allocate the 3 mortal wounds 1 at a time, thus slaying all three drones?

Each Mortal wound is treated as it's own separate hit, so per your scenario all 3 Drones would be removed.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Each Mortal wound is treated as it's own separate hit, so per your scenario all 3 Drones would be removed.

Where is that? I can only find the blurb that tells you that an attack's excess Mortal Wounds spill over.

 Plainshow wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Each Mortal wound is treated as it's own separate hit, so per your scenario all 3 Drones would be removed.

Where is that? I can only find the blurb that tells you that an attack's excess Mortal Wounds spill over.

All damage is done individually. For most "FNP" saves you do a save for each "wound" of damage. Mortal wounds are only different in that they spill over after killing a model.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

All damage is done individually. For most "FNP" saves you do a save for each "wound" of damage. Mortal wounds are only different in that they spill over after killing a model.

Yes, but Savior Protocols kicks in right after a successful 'To Wound' roll. You could do 1 wound or 5d20, it doesn't matter here, Savior Protocols takes it all damage from an attack that sucessfully Wounds, and converts it to one Mortal Wound, right? Why would it not do this for an Attack doing 3 Mortal Wounds? I think you could argue that because Mortal Wounds just inflct damage, that Savior Protocals can't trigger for Mortal Wounds because no successful 'To Wound' roll happens, but that's a different beast.

It's a little vague because it was written for normal attacks.

You take 3 'wounds'

Each 'wound' has X Damage, which causes the model to lose X Wounds

Mortal wounds happen one at a time so they can spill over. They're basically a number of auto wounding, saveless 'wounds' with D1.

GW has set it up so there will be a lot of verbiage confusion around having a both a Wound roll and a Wound stat, causing differences between "successfully wounded" and "taking a wound" and "losing a wound"

What would really make things simpler would have been to get rid of "Wound" as a statistic and call it HP or Health or something. Then you would take a Wound, fail a save, and lose Health equal to the damage. It would get rid of a lot of RAW vs RAI vs Whatever debate for special rules.

Not really, we are just used to old ways.

The rules are VERY clear ever shot, every attack and every wound and even damage is technically rolled 1 by 1.

Going by RAW you announce where all attacks for that unit is going, then you roll each "attack" seperatly.

It even states this again on pg 179 on the side under "Fast Rolling": "the rules for resolving attacks (pg. 181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time."

You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.

If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.

Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.

 Haechi wrote:
You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.

If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.

Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.

Why? The rule you are referencing states that all Mortal Wounds are applied to a model the defender chooses (it specificly states like normal damage) in sequence but then gives an exception that excess damage is not lost, Mortal Wounds only get re-Allocated to the next model after the model before it is killed (after any allowable FnP or other mitigation). Savior Protocols is applied before Allocation in the first place. If you got to use Savior Protocols after allocation and saves, then it would be gross. Taking a Broadside or Riptide's saves after normal damage but before using Protocols would be broken, but doesn't happen that way because we never get to that step. The Drone has to chump it before any damage from the attack happens, Mortal or not. There's never a need to roll Damage for an attack defended with Savior Protocols, it's always one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After re-reading the Mortal Wounds rule and Savior Protocols yet again, I still think that the 'Enemy attack successfully Wounds it' phrasing is the better way to deny Savior Protocols. Since the Mortal Wounds rule specifically tells you not to roll to Wound, the attacker never makes a successful 'To Wound' roll, they just start allocating and inflicting Damage. Savior Protocols never meets the criteria to trigger.

On a side note, I'm glad that there are very few of these semantic, rules lawyery arguments in 8th compared to 7th, and that things like this have been getting cleared up within a month or two in FAQs.

 Plainshow wrote:

 Haechi wrote:
You need to intercept each mortal wound separately, not the source of it.

If a psyker does something that inflicts 3 mortal wounds, you need 3 savior protocols. All 3 can come from the same one drone if you pass the FNP every time.

Same with a Stormsurge's Destroyer missile for example. You don't intercept the missile, you need to savior protocol each mortal wound of the D3 mortal wounds.

Why? The rule you are referencing states that all Mortal Wounds are applied to a model the defender chooses (it specificly states like normal damage) in sequence but then gives an exception that excess damage is not lost, Mortal Wounds only get re-Allocated to the next model after the model before it is killed (after any allowable FnP or other mitigation). Savior Protocols is applied before Allocation in the first place. If you got to use Savior Protocols after allocation and saves, then it would be gross. Taking a Broadside or Riptide's saves after normal damage but before using Protocols would be broken, but doesn't happen that way because we never get to that step. The Drone has to chump it before any damage from the attack happens, Mortal or not. There's never a need to roll Damage for an attack defended with Savior Protocols, it's always one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After re-reading the Mortal Wounds rule and Savior Protocols yet again, I still think that the 'Enemy attack successfully Wounds it' phrasing is the better way to deny Savior Protocols. Since the Mortal Wounds rule specifically tells you not to roll to Wound, the attacker never makes a successful 'To Wound' roll, they just start allocating and inflicting Damage. Savior Protocols never meets the criteria to trigger.

On a side note, I'm glad that there are very few of these semantic, rules lawyery arguments in 8th compared to 7th, and that things like this have been getting cleared up within a month or two in FAQs.

Other fun nuance, smite isn't defined as an attack, nor is any psychic power to my, albeit limited, knowledge. You successfully manifest/pass the test for a power, and the result happens. But no where in the psychic rules, or description of smite is it ever called an attack. So it's possible strict RAW you cannot savior protocol any psychic power unless they define themselves as an attack.

Semantics aside, inflicting damage on an enemy is an attack. Inflicting damage on yourself is not.

SJ

 Haechi wrote:
@Fenris-77

You can find how I made my proxy Vespids here. It's not a cheap kitbash, but I think it works great.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/735055.page#9531809

Also, Red Dog makes a very nice Tau jump pack. http://www.reddogminis.com/catalog/item/9023820/10336153.htm. I think I may go that direction. For $4 each? Sure.

Thanks for the link!

Personally I would just buy a strike team box and use the carbines and extra bits for the jet packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-----OK so I have a game coming up and I wanted to make as shot a deployment list as possible. Any Suggestions?? This is a pre-tournament game to test the list. (Yes they are still accepting FW on this one)
I don't have extra Ghost Keels. I am expecting an order of an O'ralai and Barracuda soon which will replace the commander and riptide. I have a large number of suits I could sub out for the riptide but what to make them is puzzling me.

Outrider Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [39 PL, 538pts]

HQ [11 PL, 191pts]
Longstrike [11 PL, 191pts]
Attached Drones (Longstrike's Gunship), Explodes, For the Greater Good, Hover Tank, Tank Ace 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts], Railgun [38pts]

Fast Attack [18 PL, 176pts]

Pathfinder Team [8 PL, 72pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Gravity Wave Projector, Pulse Accelerator, Saviour Protocols, Vanguard MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone [8pts], MV33 Grav-inhibitor Drone [8pts], MV4 Shield Drone [8pts]
5x Pathfinder [40pts] Marker-lights 5x Markerlight [15pts]
Pathfinder Shas'ui [8pts] Marker-lights Marker-light [3pts], Pulse pistol

Pathfinder Team [8 PL, 72pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Gravity Wave Projector, Pulse Accelerator, Saviour Protocols, Vanguard; MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone [8pts], MV33 Grav-inhibitor Drone [8pts], MV4 Shield Drone [8pts]
5x Pathfinder [40pts] Marker-lights5x Markerlight [15pts]
Pathfinder Shas'ui [8pts]Marker-lights Marker-light [3pts], Pulse pistol

Tactical Drones [2 PL, 32pts]
For the Greater Good
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts]

Heavy Support [10 PL, 171pts]
TX7 Hammerhead Gunship [10 PL, 171pts]
Attached Drones (TX7 Hammerhead Gunship), Explodes, Hover Tank, 2x MV1 Gun Drone [16pts], Railgun [38pts]


Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [81 PL, 1462pts]
HQ [7 PL, 172pts]

Commander [7 PL, 172pts]
For the Greater Good, Manta Strike, Master of War
3x Missile pod [72pts], 2x MV4 Shield Drone [16pts], Shield generator [8pts]

Elites [54 PL, 878pts]

XV104 Riptide Battlesuit [17 PL, 303pts]
Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Nova Reactor, Riptide Shield Generator
2x Plasma rifle [22pts], Heavy burst cannon [55pts], Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]

XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]

XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]

XV9 Hazard Support Team [9 PL, 133pts]
Bonding Knife Ritual, For the Greater Good, Manta Strike
4x MV1 Gun Drone [32pts] XV9 Hazard Battlesuit [5 PL, 101pts]
Advanced targeting system [8pts], 2x Double-barelled burst cannon [32pts]

XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit [10 PL, 176pts]
Drone Support, For the Greater Good, Ghostkeel Electrowarfare Suite, Infiltrator, Saviour Protocols, Stealth Field
2x Flamer [18pts], Cyclic ion raker [39pts], 2x MV5 Stealth Drone [20pts], Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]
Fast Attack [20 PL, 412pts]

XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [20 PL, 412pts]
For the Greater Good
Stimulant injector [5pts], Target lock [12pts]

Are we allowed to use the Riptide's Nova Charge more than once per turn?