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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Was the Tervigon the HQ? And was it the only Synapse?

If its the Only Synapse then just kill it, the army will fall apart within a turn.

A very common thing to do is, 30 Gants, 10 with Devourers, when you shoot and kill the gants they pull off the cheap ones and repawn them next turn, so the really good costly ones never die.

   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Was the Tervigon the HQ? And was it the only Synapse?

If its the Only Synapse then just kill it, the army will fall apart within a turn.

A very common thing to do is, 30 Gants, 10 with Devourers, when you shoot and kill the gants they pull off the cheap ones and repawn them next turn, so the really good costly ones never die.


He had other synapse i think. His warlord was a malanthrope i think (if he was doing it right) meaning i could not murder it and it gave all his shooty monsters in range a -1 to being hit (at least in shooting). It was a friend i scheduled playing with so we somewhat made armies to counter each other. He said he went shooty heavy because my army is just too fast to catch in melee (and i imagine most of my army can just fly right out of combat anyway).

Oh and he did exactly that with the termagaunts down to a T. In fact i'm wondering if he asked or read the internet for that tactic now. In one case i did murder his costly termagaunts in one unit since he conga-lined them out so tervigon would spawn more and to just get within range with one group he had to put his costly termagaunts in front and i managed to do about 25 unsaved wounds that turn or so. Which meant he had to peel off his good gaunts to remain near the tervigon. Not sure how good an idea that was as i don't play nids.

Wondering more and more if i should take void ravens with no missiles and just void lances with the void mine (it did ok this game and in some games void mine could be nice). The -1 to hit is nice as are the wounds, it's fast, has 360 degree arc, flies and 2 void lances are better than 2 dark lances. Really the only difference is 2 vs 3 but vs toughness 8 units like tanks and certain monsters it can matter and -1 to be hit is nothing to sniff at. In most cases i'd say it's better than the dark lance ravagers aside from being unable to really hide. I could truly see myself unsure which to pick over the other if i had a 2nd void raven again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/15 22:48:02


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

A Tyranid army will not fall apart without Synapse. Synapse rules have changed to mean that a non-synapse creature must shoot/charge the nearest enemy unit. That's it.

Against deep strikers, 4 units of kabs in Venoms can bubble wrap an entire half of the board depending on deployment map.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






 Chippen wrote:
A Tyranid army will not fall apart without Synapse. Synapse rules have changed to mean that a non-synapse creature must shoot/charge the nearest enemy unit. That's it.

Against deep strikers, 4 units of kabs in Venoms can bubble wrap an entire half of the board depending on deployment map.


Depends on if they have IB and in units larger than 5, its easy to make them fail moral, and many units are LD 7-9 but you still need to take a test every turn, if fail shooting and charging the nearest unit is a great way to manipulate the units.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Depends on if they have IB and in units larger than 5, its easy to make them fail moral, and many units are LD 7-9 but you still need to take a test every turn, if fail shooting and charging the nearest unit is a great way to manipulate the units.


That's fair, but usually by the time you've shot down all the Synapse, the Genestealers are on you, where they want to be anyway.

What would you recommend as good sacrificial units to act as speed bumps? I've been working out how to keep my Chaos buddy's Khorne Beserkers off my ass.
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor




 Chippen wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:


Depends on if they have IB and in units larger than 5, its easy to make them fail moral, and many units are LD 7-9 but you still need to take a test every turn, if fail shooting and charging the nearest unit is a great way to manipulate the units.


That's fair, but usually by the time you've shot down all the Synapse, the Genestealers are on you, where they want to be anyway.

What would you recommend as good sacrificial units to act as speed bumps? I've been working out how to keep my Chaos buddy's Khorne Beserkers off my ass.


I've found Wracks with a haemie are good speed bumps, my friend plays orks and so having to deal with turn 1 assaults is rough, but I've found that a 10 man unit of wracks inside of the haemie bubble can hold off 30 ork boys for a turn.

 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 Chippen wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:


Depends on if they have IB and in units larger than 5, its easy to make them fail moral, and many units are LD 7-9 but you still need to take a test every turn, if fail shooting and charging the nearest unit is a great way to manipulate the units.


That's fair, but usually by the time you've shot down all the Synapse, the Genestealers are on you, where they want to be anyway.

What would you recommend as good sacrificial units to act as speed bumps? I've been working out how to keep my Chaos buddy's Khorne Beserkers off my ass.


Are you talking genestealers? Keep in mind with the void raven build with void lance and void mine and no missiles it's actually pretty good vs a unit of 10 or so with invulnerable and/or armor saves. You roll up to 10 dice and for every 3+ you get it's a mortal wound (FnP being the exception). Trust me i would've killed for void mine to be as good vs necron immortals back during 7th. Could potentially handle some of the more annoying models and it's still similar to the 3 dark lance a ravager shoots out except void lances are strength 9 but it's only got 2. Flying is nice though in case you fight a melee army like nids. Of course voidraven missiles suck now. -1 to hit on voidravens as well as more wounds is nothing to sniff at either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/16 03:41:30


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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 flamingkillamajig wrote:
 Chippen wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:


Depends on if they have IB and in units larger than 5, its easy to make them fail moral, and many units are LD 7-9 but you still need to take a test every turn, if fail shooting and charging the nearest unit is a great way to manipulate the units.


That's fair, but usually by the time you've shot down all the Synapse, the Genestealers are on you, where they want to be anyway.

What would you recommend as good sacrificial units to act as speed bumps? I've been working out how to keep my Chaos buddy's Khorne Beserkers off my ass.


Are you talking genestealers? Keep in mind with the void raven build with void lance and void mine and no missiles it's actually pretty good vs a unit of 10 or so with invulnerable and/or armor saves. You roll up to 10 dice and for every 3+ you get it's a mortal wound (FnP being the exception). Trust me i would've killed for void mine to be as good vs necron immortals back during 7th. Could potentially handle some of the more annoying models and it's still similar to the 3 dark lance a ravager shoots out except void lances are strength 9 but it's only got 2. Flying is nice though in case you fight a melee army like nids. Of course voidraven missiles suck now. -1 to hit on voidravens as well as more wounds is nothing to sniff at either.


I hate Void Lances, i always use the Scythes, i also take the Missiles, but thats just personal, i see them like SM ML, those are around the same cost and it gives me another thing to shoot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/16 04:34:36


   
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Been Around the Block




So if our HQ's are as bad as I'm reading... what HQ do you guys use? do you just suffer the archon?

I recently scored some dark eldar on the super cheap and am looking to list build for 2k and buy the missing pieces.

Currently I have 4 raiders, 1 ravager, 40 kabalite warriors, 8 hellions, 4 reavers (yeah, I know), and talos.

I was considering trying to convert some raiders into ravagers; I'm missing the side sponsons but I may mold some green stuff into notched pillars off the side and glue a darklance kabalite in there... still brain storming on that front.

What units would you guys suggest I add further, I've got 10 scourges on the way, and was CONSIDERING some flying vehicles, but im not sure if i want venoms when I have 4 raiders, that would require me converting some.


/ramble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 15:54:32


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






I just use Archons, only b.c they have a 2++ and you can use them as fake bodyguards of important stuff.....

How sad is that

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Pretty sure the Archon with a blaster is the best HQ. Hopefully they can tank some shooting with that 2++ and the blaster chips away at anything.

All the DE HQs are meant to be melee units but are comically bad at it - struggling to kill two marines a turn and they can't scratch vehicles. If they were lethal to characters it might give them a niche but they are not.

Has anyone run a heavy Covens list with success? The Haemi has the best aura buff, but it just seems to be buffing up mediocre units to me. Its like pre-Codex Death Guard, my stuff is a bit annoying to kill but the damage output is so low it doesn't matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 21:56:21


 
   
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The Troupe Master is a perfect example of what the Archon should be (albeit a 2++ until it fails).

DE as always suffered "We can hurt EVERYTHING with Poison and Lance... so we better make it over costed or under powered"

Huskblade is S3... WTF why is it User strength.
Then you say "well i'll take the Posion weapon" NOPE b.c that weapons is only 1 damage, -2ap and on a 4+ to wound, even against S3.
Ok then Power Sword, wrong again, its -3ap sure, but S3 1D.


I have like 15k DE (albeit 1k is 3rd ed models) and i shelved them for Harlequins, they literally are Wyches w/ Venoms but better in everyway. I take the Bomber and some Beasts, sometimes Ravagers out of the DE book still b.c those are fun/good.

   
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






IDK I have been ruining people with my DE. Seems like a lot of people are writing units off before they really tried making them shine.

Grotesques are still savage, you just have to use them smart. I stopped taking mine in large groups. I take a 5 man squad in almost every list currently. They are infantry which means they can mess around in terrain where a lot of things can't go, by that i mean, if you are afraid of a certain unit like a dread knight, just run them in a ruin. I use mine as a mid field denial unit, more like just past my deployment line. They absolutely delete hordes at turn 3 or with doom earlier. I have routinely blasted through 30 man ork mobs.

I also have been using 20 mandrakes, two groups of 10. They warp in where ever I want and delete a thing each while being mindful to make sure they also have another target to charge. Most opponents really struggle with what to do about them since they have a flat -1 to hit plus the invuln.

I don't bother taking transports anymore, 5 man warrior units with a blaster an thats it, use them to eat up space on the table and grab objectives while adding fire support where you need that extra wound or two. I own 9 venoms, 3 raiders and 6 ravagers. I only field the ravagers now. Our transports just are not worth the cost. If I need to tie something up I just use a ravager. A raider is the same base cost as a ravager, it's pointless to take them, simply get +1 toughness and 2 more gun slots with the ravager.

For HQ's I take a farseer and warlocks. Currently our HQ's are totally worthless and Doom makes everything in our army work better. Any horde in the game or any titan or elite unit will melt after it's been doomed.

That is the legit area to be bumed about, I charged a Dominus with Drazarh and Urien and I lost Drazarh handily before getting super lucky with uriens ichor injector ( I rerolled a successful wound with it fishing for the 6 and got it lol)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 00:09:34


   
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Mandrakes are good, one of the better units in the Codex, the problem is there is only a handful of good units.

Drazhar is IMO literally (And i mean literally in the literal since not figuratively) the Worst HQ in the game.

I'm not saying DE is bad, but lots of it is. I've table a few players before, but i had to use the same 4-5 units. Ravagers, Bombers, Mandrakes, Incubi basically, and a few Beasts.

Spelling

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/18 00:32:26


   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Not sure if i feel it for incubi. Pretty sure you'd need a lot more of them to be as good now. I mean they're probably better at marine killing than dissie ravagers (which are meant for killing primaris marines) but other than that and a decent armor save it's not too special.

I still think scourge are good. Being able to deepstrike in just about everything is pretty good esp. where it'll hurt and where the enemy won't know where it's coming in at. I was able to force my last opponent (tyranids) to spread out his stuff because he didn't know where i was coming in at. Then i just come in all at one side.

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Fixture of Dakka






They do well for a cheap melee unit, a 5man unit can be a good Threat.

I like to have Forward Threats, it makes them think about shooting my Ravagers/Bombers. If my Venom with 5 Incubi get to your Devastators, they will die. So do you want to shoot the Incubi or the Ravager. Incubi will kill heavy weapon infantry, and thats why i take them.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

Agree with Amish here. The only thing I'd add is that if you're gonna invest in one melee threat, you gotta invest in more than one. I think you're always better doubling up on threats. 2x5 Incubi in two Venoms will always be better in my mind than 1x10 in a Raider.

If only I could justify taking Incubi over Harlie Troupes... but for pure DE they're a very good choice.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






 Chippen wrote:
Agree with Amish here. The only thing I'd add is that if you're gonna invest in one melee threat, you gotta invest in more than one. I think you're always better doubling up on threats. 2x5 Incubi in two Venoms will always be better in my mind than 1x10 in a Raider.

If only I could justify taking Incubi over Harlie Troupes... but for pure DE they're a very good choice.


Literally my same problem, i love harlequins Troupes lol.

   
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Amishprn86 wrote:
They do well for a cheap melee unit, a 5man unit can be a good Threat.

I like to have Forward Threats, it makes them think about shooting my Ravagers/Bombers. If my Venom with 5 Incubi get to your Devastators, they will die. So do you want to shoot the Incubi or the Ravager. Incubi will kill heavy weapon infantry, and thats why i take them.


Incubi are actually really durable in terrain. a 5 man squad can easily hop into a ruin on an objective and become a major pain to remove.

   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I usually field two haemonculi with whips, but mostly because I can't play without grotesques or talos. 2 succubus when I run a full wych cult army. I don't like the archon, his only ability is the blaster shot IMHO, but it's not worse than the other HQs.

Named characters are all useless.

I like incubi, in my fav list they're one of the three melee units I always include. I take 5 of them in a venom with 2x4 grots in raiders. Incubi are more efficent point wise but I need at least three choppy units (I hate playing full shooty armies) and if I cut the grots I'd need 25ish incubi, which is crazy considering how much 5 of those dudes cost in terms of money. Wyches are only working in dedicated wych cult lists IMHO and I don't like wracks. So yeah incubi are a good close combat unit but you need some other melee unit in your list otherwise they become high priority target if the opponent fears to get assaulted.

 
   
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Dakka Veteran






I don't think scourges will fix the anti horde problem either. The horde I faced that convinced me to change lists for a tournament was 90 plaguebearers. It averages out to requiring 3 scourges to kill a single plaguebearer in a turn. That means you're paying 42 points to kill a 7 point model (and hoping they don't get them right back during the leadership check). Then the dozen malefic lords will smite you back and wipe the unit since scourges don't have enough range to shoot from far enough away.
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I have not had the problems with the succubus that other people seem to be having. Give her +S against T3, +A against T4, extra attack warlord trait, and she can fairly reliably remove threats while she buffs up nearby hellions, Wyches and Reavers.

Tbh the only thing I don't like about our HQs is how GW hit themselves on the head with a rock after designing the transport capacities for imperial guard, eldar, Orks, Harlequins, Space Marines, and sisters of battle. It's SIX slots and TWELVE slots, so you can FIT A CHARACTER IN THERE with a regular squad you dunces!

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Florida

Trancefate wrote:
So if our HQ's are as bad as I'm reading... what HQ do you guys use? do you just suffer the archon?


I'm fond of the Haemonculus w/corrosive whip and hex rifle. Stick him in a 5 man unit of Wracks with another hex rfile on the acothyst and an ossefactor in the unit. Then go after objectives.

T5 (from Haemonculus), 5++, and PfP makes them our most durable troop choice. Come December all troops will be objective secured.

Gives 2 sniper shots at 36" and the potential of causing 3 mortal wounds (combined with the ossefactor). If a psyker gets with 12" pop the crucible for potentially 1-3 more mortal wounds.

I take 2 units of these in Maelstrom missions and increase the wracks to unit size 7 in a disintegrator raider or dump all of them into a Tantalus and drop them off at relevant objectives.

I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

I don't necessarily take pleasure in being a wet blanket, but is it really fair to say "I don't think Deldar are that bad, you guys are dismissing alot of our good units" and then end your post with "oh btw my entire army depends on the psychic buffs from another codex' units to work properly"?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

Trancefate wrote:
So if our HQ's are as bad as I'm reading... what HQ do you guys use? do you just suffer the archon?


In my 2k battalion I'm building up for a tourney, I'm rocking 2x Archon w/ Blaster and Agoniser. Accurate Blasters are nothing to scoff at honestly. That's really the best option for pure DE. Haemonculus are fine if you're gonna just use them to survive an alpha strike by giving your vehicles the +1T. and since Wyches and Bloodbrides are not good, there's hardly a reason to take a Succubus other than DISTRACTION CARNIFEX

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't necessarily take pleasure in being a wet blanket, but is it really fair to say "I don't think Deldar are that bad, you guys are dismissing alot of our good units" and then end your post with "oh btw my entire army depends on the psychic buffs from another codex' units to work properly"?


I don't think anyone did that. Ravagers, Dissie RWJFs, Mandrakes, Kabs w/ Blaster in Venom, Voidravens, these are all good units on their own merits. But when the discussion turned to HQ it's hard to deny that Craftworld, Harlie, and Ynnari HQs are better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 13:40:57


 
   
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Been Around the Block




Next question.... What in the world is the REAL difference between voidraven and razorwing jetfighter? They seem to be nearly identical with only minor variations to stat lines and the points are about the same as well.

What am I missing here?

Edit: I get that the razorwing is better against infantry so that makes a case for it... however if you put dark lances on it, does it not do the exact same thing as a voidraven with only nominally different missiles? Considering the razorwing jet fighter is almost half the cost of the voidraven im not sure why I would ever buy one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 21:54:42


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Trancefate wrote:
Next question.... What in the world is the REAL difference between voidraven and razorwing jetfighter? They seem to be nearly identical with only minor variations to stat lines and the points are about the same as well.

What am I missing here?

Edit: I get that the razorwing is better against infantry so that makes a case for it... however if you put dark lances on it, does it not do the exact same thing as a voidraven with only nominally different missiles? Considering the razorwing jet fighter is almost half the cost of the voidraven im not sure why I would ever buy one.


Read the stats for the void mine. That's entirely why plus it has more wounds than the razorwing jetfighter. Also void lances are slightly stronger which does matter vs toughness 8. Believe me when i say that.

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Regular Dakkanaut




NC, USA

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Read the stats for the void mine. That's entirely why plus it has more wounds than the razorwing jetfighter. Also void lances are slightly stronger which does matter vs toughness 8. Believe me when i say that.


Just for reference, 2 Void Lances assuming hitting on 3s will deal, on average, 3.11 wounds to a T8 vehicle per turn. 2 Dark Lances will do 2.33. 3 Dark Lances deal 3.50. 2 Dark Scythes will deal 2.67.

If you're running a Voidraven, you do it for the mortal wounds, and you should be running Dark Scythes every time. They're only marginally worse against T8, but significantly better against everything else.

If you're after anti-T8, a triple lance Ravager is way more efficient.


On another note, how are y'all dealing with Kastelan Robots? Had my first game against Admech, dude had like 6 of em. They're pretty nasty. I'm guessing Incubi, mass poison, and mortal wounds are the best bet?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 01:10:05


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Part of why i like the void lances is due to 36" range vs the 24" of the dark scythes. I get your point on ravagers with dark lances but the enemy does seem to focus them down wherever they can (no -1 to hit for enemy shooting sadly). Not sure about dark scythes. Perhaps i should use em more for anti-tank and anti-monster which is obvious i'm sure. That said the str 8 tends to wound on 2's so it could be ok vs t4 multi wound models. I'll admit it took me till last game or so to fully get used to the idea of no firing arcs and having 360 degree weapon vision. I guess i'm just so used to old 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 01:36:46


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Been Around the Block




 Chippen wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Read the stats for the void mine. That's entirely why plus it has more wounds than the razorwing jetfighter. Also void lances are slightly stronger which does matter vs toughness 8. Believe me when i say that.


Just for reference, 2 Void Lances assuming hitting on 3s will deal, on average, 3.11 wounds to a T8 vehicle per turn. 2 Dark Lances will do 2.33. 3 Dark Lances deal 3.50. 2 Dark Scythes will deal 2.67.

If you're running a Voidraven, you do it for the mortal wounds, and you should be running Dark Scythes every time. They're only marginally worse against T8, but significantly better against everything else.

If you're after anti-T8, a triple lance Ravager is way more efficient.


On another note, how are y'all dealing with Kastelan Robots? Had my first game against Admech, dude had like 6 of em. They're pretty nasty. I'm guessing Incubi, mass poison, and mortal wounds are the best bet?


Great points thank you! So essentially although they are similar the bomber is going to pull ahead against VERY heavy armor, and when you really want the mortal wounds.
   
 
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