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2017/11/01 07:48:08
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
As far as blasterborn in venoms go i still think ravagers are the better way to go for it.
I also prefer ravagers but blasterborn in a venom are almost invaluable to me. Not only because they can do serious damage if ingored but mostly because they usually soak a lot of anti tank leaving my 2 raiders full of grots and the venom that carries incubi untouched. And it can soak some of the anti tank that would have gone towards the ravagers as well. 3 ravagers, 2 with lances and 1 with disintegrator cannons, a venom with blasterborn and the lances mounted on raiders are the only anti tank I usually bring, sometimes I also give a blaster to 1-3 units of kabalites but only if I have the spared points, but it's usually too much anti tank even without scourges or flyers.
2017/11/01 16:53:49
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
Also, how do you feel about lances in venoms and blasters in a raider?
As it is i've got 7 warriors w/ lances and 6 w/ blasters im trying to find the optimal split for them in 2 raiders 2 venoms. Currently i've got 4 lances in a raider, 2 in another raider w/ both Archons, 2 lances on foot with trueborns, a lance on foot with a 10man Kab squad, and 2 venoms w/ 3 blasters each.
should add that I have 2 more footslogging 5 man kabalite squads that could be played around with here. Original goal was 1 squad of lances per raider w/ a 5man kabs that can disembark. Not sure if its riskier to have 2 lance squads in a raider or to have them exposed on foot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/01 16:55:13
2017/11/02 07:32:18
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
Also, how do you feel about lances in venoms and blasters in a raider?
As it is i've got 7 warriors w/ lances and 6 w/ blasters im trying to find the optimal split for them in 2 raiders 2 venoms. Currently i've got 4 lances in a raider, 2 in another raider w/ both Archons, 2 lances on foot with trueborns, a lance on foot with a 10man Kab squad, and 2 venoms w/ 3 blasters each.
should add that I have 2 more footslogging 5 man kabalite squads that could be played around with here. Original goal was 1 squad of lances per raider w/ a 5man kabs that can disembark. Not sure if its riskier to have 2 lance squads in a raider or to have them exposed on foot.
I would not personally recommend lances in a Raider. Since models inside are subject to the same shooting restrictions as the vehicle (such as not being able to shoot if the model fell back), that means if you move, your lances are at a -1 for shooting heavy weapons. I'd personally recommend blasters on whatever is in the Raider (the speed will make up for the shorter range), and lances on more easily entrenchabl units, like Scourges
"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?"
2017/11/03 13:47:41
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
I don't like shooty units on raiders. I'd only take incubi, wyches and grotesques in raiders, I prefer venoms for units like trueborn or kabalite warriors.
2017/11/03 13:59:19
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
I love raiders, i always play with 3-4, I like the DL or DC on them, i HATE! poison in 8th and now that the venom cannon was nerfed, along with 10pts over costed... i hate the venoms.
I seriously would dbl all shooting of all poison weapons for DE, and still make them a bit cheaper.
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
If you want heavy weapons just go with flyers or ravagers. Think i said it before but point for point you get far more out of either than a unit of trueborn with blasters or dark lances in a raider. Seriously take the cost of razorwing jetfighter and compare it to a venom with trueborn and dark lances. Razorwing gets toughness 6, 10 wounds, can move and shoot dark lances without penalty and can even be loaded with a splinter cannon if you wish with a bunch of missiles for free and it's still -1 to hit in shooting and can only be hit in melee by flying units. I mean it's about 200 points for the venom with double splinter cannon and 2 dark lance trueborn and a razorwing is about 170 pts for 2 dark lance, 1 splinter cannon and missiles. A ravager with dark lances will land you about 155 pts with 3 lances, a unit that can move and still shoot without penalty and is toughness 6 with 10 wounds but no -1 to hit against shooting. There's honestly probably only one positive about venom+dark lance trueborn over the other option and that is it won't degrade but considering you only degrade after losing 5 wounds on a razorwing and venoms only have 6 wounds it's almost negligible as an advantage.
Meanwhile if you want 4 blasterborn in a venom try comparing it to a voidraven with dark scythes (2d3 shots so an average of 4 , str 8, ap-4, d3 damage). Double the wounds, same negative modifier to hit when shot at, toughness 6, 24" range main guns vs 18", can't be attacked in melee except by flyers, it can get in range by turn 1 vs turn 2 of the venom and blasterborn, by the time it degrades to half health the venom is already dead and so on. Void raven is under 170 pts with this loadout and the blasterborn with venom are about 215 pts.
While raiders would be nice for trueborn with blasters you have to take 2 squads and that gets point heavy and becomes a massive target and it's not that durable. Once i saw that i decided against it completely.
So yeah it's more a contest of whether to take ravagers or flyers but trueborn in venoms are usually not the way to go.
As far as the talk of poisoned goes i'm kinda of a similar mind now. If the enemy has power armored dudes hiding in cover poisoned shooting is absolute garbage. Basically 2+ terminator-esque saves on a regular space marine. You seriously can't complain about the new cover system when facing against basic guns as marines (pray they don't have cover nearby). Against hordes poisoned shooting is better but it's not good enough. It just isn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 06:04:00
Razorwing is also just 2 DL, for 14pts? more the bomber is a better pick IMO. I normally take 4-5 Ravagers and a couple Bombers.
IMO Raiders are GREAT, i always take 3 Raiders.
With a trueborn unit wit 2 DL (3 total DL with the raider) you have 2 layers of units, if they raider dies you still have 2 DL's and 4-5 more wounds to go threw. You also get bodies at the same time. Raiders have won me games before.
I've table the stupid BA, Dante 3 Storm Raven list a couple times, and also have against 4 Razorback/Dev spam with Gman.
I normally take 4-5 Ravagers, 2 bombers, 3 Raiders with Trueborn x2DL and then lots of RWF (yes with the 14pts cost, they are still great DS bubble wraps and most importantly, TANK STOPPERS).
Its just... a very boring list, you have Raiders, Ravagers (basically the same) Bombers and 1 type of Beasts with 2 HQ's that dont do anytime.... literally dont do anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 08:25:09
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
If you want heavy weapons just go with flyers or ravagers. Think i said it before but point for point you get far more out of either than a unit of trueborn with blasters or dark lances in a raider. Seriously take the cost of razorwing jetfighter and compare it to a venom with trueborn and dark lances. Razorwing gets toughness 6, 10 wounds, can move and shoot dark lances without penalty and can even be loaded with a splinter cannon if you wish with a bunch of missiles for free and it's still -1 to hit in shooting and can only be hit in melee by flying units. I mean it's about 200 points for the venom with double splinter cannon and 2 dark lance trueborn and a razorwing is about 170 pts for 2 dark lance, 1 splinter cannon and missiles. A ravager with dark lances will land you about 155 pts with 3 lances, a unit that can move and still shoot without penalty and is toughness 6 with 10 wounds but no -1 to hit against shooting. There's honestly probably only one positive about venom+dark lance trueborn over the other option and that is it won't degrade but considering you only degrade after losing 5 wounds on a razorwing and venoms only have 6 wounds it's almost negligible as an advantage.
Meanwhile if you want 4 blasterborn in a venom try comparing it to a voidraven with dark scythes (2d3 shots so an average of 4 , str 8, ap-4, d3 damage). Double the wounds, same negative modifier to hit when shot at, toughness 6, 24" range main guns vs 18", can't be attacked in melee except by flyers, it can get in range by turn 1 vs turn 2 of the venom and blasterborn, by the time it degrades to half health the venom is already dead and so on. Void raven is under 170 pts with this loadout and the blasterborn with venom are about 215 pts.
While raiders would be nice for trueborn with blasters you have to take 2 squads and that gets point heavy and becomes a massive target and it's not that durable. Once i saw that i decided against it completely.
So yeah it's more a contest of whether to take ravagers or flyers but trueborn in venoms are usually not the way to go.
As far as the talk of poisoned goes i'm kinda of a similar mind now. If the enemy has power armored dudes hiding in cover poisoned shooting is absolute garbage. Basically 2+ terminator-esque saves on a regular space marine. You seriously can't complain about the new cover system when facing against basic guns as marines (pray they don't have cover nearby). Against hordes poisoned shooting is better but it's not good enough. It just isn't.
Amishprn86 wrote:Razorwing is also just 2 DL, for 14pts? more the bomber is a better pick IMO. I normally take 4-5 Ravagers and a couple Bombers.
IMO Raiders are GREAT, i always take 3 Raiders.
With a trueborn unit wit 2 DL (3 total DL with the raider) you have 2 layers of units, if they raider dies you still have 2 DL's and 4-5 more wounds to go threw. You also get bodies at the same time. Raiders have won me games before.
I've table the stupid BA, Dante 3 Storm Raven list a couple times, and also have against 4 Razorback/Dev spam with Gman.
I normally take 4-5 Ravagers, 2 bombers, 3 Raiders with Trueborn x2DL and then lots of RWF (yes with the 14pts cost, they are still great DS bubble wraps and most importantly, TANK STOPPERS).
Its just... a very boring list, you have Raiders, Ravagers (basically the same) Bombers and 1 type of Beasts with 2 HQ's that dont do anytime.... literally dont do anything.
flamingkillamajig wrote:
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious, do people just not like raiders in general? Or are we split on them? I'm wondering if I should put 4 lances in a raider, or put some on foot.
If you want heavy weapons just go with flyers or ravagers. Think i said it before but point for point you get far more out of either than a unit of trueborn with blasters or dark lances in a raider. Seriously take the cost of razorwing jetfighter and compare it to a venom with trueborn and dark lances. Razorwing gets toughness 6, 10 wounds, can move and shoot dark lances without penalty and can even be loaded with a splinter cannon if you wish with a bunch of missiles for free and it's still -1 to hit in shooting and can only be hit in melee by flying units. I mean it's about 200 points for the venom with double splinter cannon and 2 dark lance trueborn and a razorwing is about 170 pts for 2 dark lance, 1 splinter cannon and missiles. A ravager with dark lances will land you about 155 pts with 3 lances, a unit that can move and still shoot without penalty and is toughness 6 with 10 wounds but no -1 to hit against shooting. There's honestly probably only one positive about venom+dark lance trueborn over the other option and that is it won't degrade but considering you only degrade after losing 5 wounds on a razorwing and venoms only have 6 wounds it's almost negligible as an advantage.
Meanwhile if you want 4 blasterborn in a venom try comparing it to a voidraven with dark scythes (2d3 shots so an average of 4 , str 8, ap-4, d3 damage). Double the wounds, same negative modifier to hit when shot at, toughness 6, 24" range main guns vs 18", can't be attacked in melee except by flyers, it can get in range by turn 1 vs turn 2 of the venom and blasterborn, by the time it degrades to half health the venom is already dead and so on. Void raven is under 170 pts with this loadout and the blasterborn with venom are about 215 pts.
While raiders would be nice for trueborn with blasters you have to take 2 squads and that gets point heavy and becomes a massive target and it's not that durable. Once i saw that i decided against it completely.
So yeah it's more a contest of whether to take ravagers or flyers but trueborn in venoms are usually not the way to go.
As far as the talk of poisoned goes i'm kinda of a similar mind now. If the enemy has power armored dudes hiding in cover poisoned shooting is absolute garbage. Basically 2+ terminator-esque saves on a regular space marine. You seriously can't complain about the new cover system when facing against basic guns as marines (pray they don't have cover nearby). Against hordes poisoned shooting is better but it's not good enough. It just isn't.
I feel like the extra layer of units is something people haven't touched on and may be missing in all the math hammer. You can split the units out for strategic positioning, you have an extra layer of wounds to remove before you start to lose dark lances, and you still get the protection of the vehicle.
If I was going to run a list without any trueborn lances or blasters i'd need to run basically pure vehicles with a couple cheap squads of kabalites. This just seems like you are asking to lose on victory points to some cheeky obsec shenanigans. I know the last time I was nearly tabled I actually won the game because I focused the opponents infantry down and they simply couldn't scatter to the objectives fast enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 01:34:55
2017/11/05 03:14:15
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
@trancefate: No i have a lot of scourge squads that i use. It's just usually between scourge and vehicles.
One game i fought against sisters of silence and either grey knights or custodes or both and i tabled the guy in a few turns. The alpha strike deep strike of scourge is really mean sometimes. Of course i'm not sure how many games he had under his belt so maybe i was a little too hard on him.
I find it kinda funny how against some armies ravagers with their long ranged guns can just sorta pick off elite dudes from a distance and in many cases they can't do much about it. Perhaps they have a bad list for facing that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 05:06:15
pessa wrote: Might seem like a stupid question, but what do you use for Trueborn? Can't seem to find any models.
I'm new to DE.
I assume just jazz up some warriors?
Trueborns don't have special models, they are simply Kabalites. Equate them to a marine heavy weapon squad vs. a tac squad.
I personally just use Kabalites, it doesn't cause much confusion if your opponent gets to see your army list. Once i've done painting everything else I own (main army, chaos daemons) I'm gonna use a separate color scheme on them (My dark eldar is a bargain basement of all second hand beat up lots from ebay, and badly needs stripped and repainted!).
flamingkillamajig wrote: @trancefate: No i have a lot of scourge squads that i use. It's just usually between scourge and vehicles.
One game i fought against sisters of silence and either grey knights or custodes or both and i tabled the guy in a few turns. The alpha strike deep strike of scourge is really mean sometimes. Of course i'm not sure how many games he had under his belt so maybe i was a little too hard on him.
I find it kinda funny how against some armies ravagers with their long ranged guns can just sorta pick off elite dudes from a distance and in many cases they can't do much about it. Perhaps they have a bad list for facing that.
That makes sense. I only own a couple ravagers and 1RWJF so I'm running a very infantry heavy list. Right now I have a squad of Haywire scourges, and a squad of Darklance scourges, runing alongside 2venom blasterborn squads, and 2 raiders w/ 4 lanceborn. The rest is filled out with cheap kabs and a couple 10man heavy squads to hit points.
I considered dropping some foot kabs to add a 3carbine/3cannon (what I own) squad of scourge ontop of that. Would lose 10 wounds and some bodies but gain way more splinterfire. The thing is I pretty much just play MEQ/TEQ and armored parkinglots... so my personal opinion on splinterfire and its mechanics are something along the lines of its ass-trash directly from the faucet that should have never made it into an index.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/05 15:10:04
2017/11/05 19:02:31
Subject: Re:Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Keep in mind that's only against vehicles too and considering it is that's why i never take it. Also vehicles tend to have a crap ton of wounds and not much in the way of invulnerable saves.
How effective are these? The Haywire is obviously designed to kill vehicles ... but it's a bit beyond my limited mathhammer to know if that's so.
It all seems pretty random, does the haywire get the job done over blasters etc?
I specifically face Dark Angel's parking lot w/ Azrael who gives a nice invuln save bubble. They are mediocre to slightly sub par (they are pretty low cost) compared to blasters or lances however, when you take into consideration the MW going over invuln saves, it makes up for it.
Very niche atm, but not all together bad.
2017/11/06 06:16:45
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
A unit of scourges with 4 haywire blasters used to strip 50-75% of the HP off a vehicle, sometimes even 100% with some luck.
Now they can strip 10-15% or less.
Haywire should be completely re-written, I also have a unit of scourges all with that weapon and unless I proxy them to have lances there's no chance to bring them to combat.
2017/11/06 07:25:40
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Blackie wrote: A unit of scourges with 4 haywire blasters used to strip 50-75% of the HP off a vehicle, sometimes even 100% with some luck.
Now they can strip 10-15% or less.
Haywire should be completely re-written, I also have a unit of scourges all with that weapon and unless I proxy them to have lances there's no chance to bring them to combat.
Do what i did. I basically tore the arms of my off. It's even easier if you super glue the arms so that they come off easier should the new rules make a weapon type suck and another great.
Blackie wrote: A unit of scourges with 4 haywire blasters used to strip 50-75% of the HP off a vehicle, sometimes even 100% with some luck.
Now they can strip 10-15% or less.
Haywire should be completely re-written, I also have a unit of scourges all with that weapon and unless I proxy them to have lances there's no chance to bring them to combat.
Do what i did. I basically tore the arms of my off. It's even easier if you super glue the arms so that they come off easier should the new rules make a weapon type suck and another great.
Or dont change anything till the codex is out and just play count as, b.c everyone knows the codex are doing drastic changes....
I'll wait for the codex, but I'm currently thinking about magnetising them.
I'd really like some effective haywire blasters though, since I prefer the other options work better on other units. I've already got venoms and kabalites for poison shots and ravagers/raiders for dark lances. Never liked heat lances and I have 6 magnetised reavers that can be equipped with them.
2017/11/06 08:07:25
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Amishprn86 wrote: Isnt it just a 6+ invul tho? I mean... even if it was still a 5++ the Lances would still do more damage over all.
I mean... even with a 5++ the lance is still way more damage.
It will take 4 shots to make sure you get 1 MW. Thats same 4 shots is 4 damage on average. On average it does 4x HWB on a 5++
Haywire needs to be fixed, EDIT: I want it to be this To wound rolls "on a 2-3 it does 1MW, 4-5 2MW's, 6 3MW's" 5
Actually its a 4+ invuln save. If someone more capable than me can mathhammer that out i'd love to see it. My gut feeling is that with a 4+ invuln save the haywire blasters are gonna pull ahead per point against vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 16:11:07
2017/11/06 20:10:57
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Amishprn86 wrote: Isnt it just a 6+ invul tho? I mean... even if it was still a 5++ the Lances would still do more damage over all.
I mean... even with a 5++ the lance is still way more damage.
It will take 4 shots to make sure you get 1 MW. Thats same 4 shots is 4 damage on average. On average it does 4x HWB on a 5++
Haywire needs to be fixed, EDIT: I want it to be this To wound rolls "on a 2-3 it does 1MW, 4-5 2MW's, 6 3MW's"
5
Actually its a 4+ invuln save. If someone more capable than me can mathhammer that out i'd love to see it. My gut feeling is that with a 4+ invuln save the haywire blasters are gonna pull ahead per point against vehicles.
That's super situational though. You'd have to be facing that type of army. It doesn't even have any side effects other than the mortal wounds. I mean maybe that's because they tried to simplify it but if it could shut down vehicle weapons somewhat or maybe make them shoot worse that'd be a nice addition. Just right now the haywire doesn't do it for me or almost anybody really. Perhaps they should just make it do more mortal wounds.
Amishprn86 wrote: Isnt it just a 6+ invul tho? I mean... even if it was still a 5++ the Lances would still do more damage over all.
I mean... even with a 5++ the lance is still way more damage.
It will take 4 shots to make sure you get 1 MW. Thats same 4 shots is 4 damage on average. On average it does 4x HWB on a 5++
Haywire needs to be fixed, EDIT: I want it to be this To wound rolls "on a 2-3 it does 1MW, 4-5 2MW's, 6 3MW's"
5
Actually its a 4+ invuln save. If someone more capable than me can mathhammer that out i'd love to see it. My gut feeling is that with a 4+ invuln save the haywire blasters are gonna pull ahead per point against vehicles.
That's super situational though. You'd have to be facing that type of army. It doesn't even have any side effects other than the mortal wounds. I mean maybe that's because they tried to simplify it but if it could shut down vehicle weapons somewhat or maybe make them shoot worse that'd be a nice addition. Just right now the haywire doesn't do it for me or almost anybody really. Perhaps they should just make it do more mortal wounds.
Oh yeah you are 100% correct, they are too situational and even then only kind of viable. I was just commenting that in my particular situation they are actually capable of being okayish (since literally 19/20 of my games are against Azrael dark angels)
Haywires need a buff for sure. I think the MW are fine where they are because honestly, buffing that could send them overboard quickly. I think they could definitely use to be a little more reliable though. Maybe a bump to 6str, -2ap, d2/d3 dmg?
2017/11/06 20:53:03
Subject: Re:Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Amishprn86 wrote: Ok well a 5++ the DL was 4x better... so its still better against a 4++ lol, 1 wound sometimes vs D6 wounds sometimes....
Just went through and found the math for scourges against t8 vehicles on 2nd page, interesting. This really makes me think the only way to fix haywires is to give them str6 ap-2 and maybe another point of dmg.
2017/11/07 01:07:01
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Problem with Haywire Blasters is that before, they had a specific Haywire rule that basically was the reason they existed. Now that Haywire isn't a thing, the only thing those Haywire Blasters can really become is a plasma equivalent. Which honestly I'd like on Scourge.
2017/11/07 01:11:53
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Chippen wrote: Problem with Haywire Blasters is that before, they had a specific Haywire rule that basically was the reason they existed. Now that Haywire isn't a thing, the only thing those Haywire Blasters can really become is a plasma equivalent. Which honestly I'd like on Scourge.
I could see that being an easy move for them to make. Maybe they could give the haywire some kind of AoE effect, the current MW rule could affect vehicles within 6'' of the target or something similar. That would be fluffy for the "haywire" part, and further focus on its niche of clearing massed vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 01:13:13
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
