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I'd like some feedback on this list. I'm working on trying to incorporate more Razorbacks into my lists to keep troops safe, faster objective grabbing, and solid firepower. Rely on the Tanks and Hellblasters vs tanks.

Is there a better chapter tactic for this list? Idea is to have the Jump LT and Terminators challenge a flank objective, or come in my deployment zone to keep away charging units trying to tie up my tanks, popping killshot as often as I can.
Comes in at 9CP, and 12 Drops

@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

@ iGuy

I would drop the terminators.

Great to see people still bringing the smurfs over RG.

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...

I have done well without him. I play competitively and this is the internet.

 Primark G wrote:
I have done well without him. I play competitively and this is the internet.

Okay elaborate on the competitive reasons to bring Ultramarines over any of the chapters i mentioned if you're not using Guilliman.

You are arguing with the man that claims Allarus are a competitive choice compared to Gyrfalcons.

Just as a warning.

Roboute or Marneus Calgar are the only two reasons to bring UM, and Calgar is a bit overpriced compared to his contemporaries now.

CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

@ iGuy

I would drop the terminators.

Great to see people still bringing the smurfs over RG.

What would you suggest using the points I save on termies?

I'm making a competitive list, and your response is, "oh, gee, hmm, i'm so good, hmm, gee, i tone down my lists otherwise i dominate so hard, i'm the best, geee hmmmm geeeee."

Come on.

Comments like "training wheels..." etc... don't hurt yourself flexing in front of the mirror.

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH
>Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former

He's saying the penalty is "not that great," of course if he was consistent he'd say it's bad as Tigurius's buff is good. But, hey, who's counting?

Back to on topic, i'll probably run two assault cannon razorbacks. It's not a creative or cool solution but it is effective.

@ Marmatag - I have seen you say pretty much the same. If you are running pure SM list they are best at shooting not melee. RG CT does not buff shooting. U CT makes units effectively have keyword Fly which is a big deal.

@ iGuy - I would take a Dev squad - maybe something like:

2x HB
2x ML
Cherub

You can pop the MW strats with this squad.

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag - I have seen you say pretty much the same. If you are running pure SM list they are best at shooting not melee. RG CT does not buff shooting. U CT makes units effectively have keyword Fly which is a big deal.

@ iGuy - I would take a Dev squad - maybe something like:

2x HB
2x ML
Cherub

You can pop the MW strats with this squad.

Gives me a solid amount of buffer to throw some extra bodies in there, or a pair of lascannons as well. Not a bad idea.

Look at what i did in my list.

I'm running devastator squads with 1 heavy weapon. As it stands there are precious few ways to target a model, so you don't need to pay the extra points for a second heavy bolter or a second missile launcher.

This way, against Fly models like Custode bikes, you can put out 4D3 mortal wounds the first turn (assuming you roll well enough to hit, with a +1 from signum, and full rerolls from Guilliman). Adding an extra missile launcher or extra heavy bolter is a waste of points. You wouldn't bring a heavy bolter or missile launcher without the stratagem. The points are better spent elsewhere.

Here's my 2k so far. This isn't amazingly good but it gets the job done against some meta lists.

Tigurius
Captain /w Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra

TAC Squad /w Lascannon
TAC Squad /w Lascannon
Scout Squad

Devastator Squad /w Heavy Bolter, Cherub (one heavy bolter only)
Devastator Squad /w Missile Launcher, Cherb (one missile launcher only)

Razorback /w Assault Cannon, Hunter-Killer
Razorback /w Assault Cannon, Hunter-Killer

Storm Raven Gunship (Sponsons, Assault Cannons, MM - i know MM is the bad choice but i'm playing WYSIWYG, and this is what i built)

Inceptor Squad /w Assault Bolters
Predator /w Auto-cannon & 2x Lascannons

Roboute Guilliman (Warlord)

The predator is not a wise choice but I want to play it. This model is endeared to me, as it did amazing work back in 7th edition in a very specific game against Genestealer cults, when it was armed with heavy bolters. I would drop it for a dreadnought, but ultimately a venerable dreadnought doesn't put out enough shots to justify its cost.

Obviously this list would be better with dropping the Raven, the Predator, and the Razorbacks, and investing those points in Imperial Guard and their artillery. This could get me 30 bodies to screen, and a few artillery tanks. I could comfortably bring 2x Manticore, for 4d6 strength 10 ap-2 d3 shots anywhere on the board per turn. Perhaps a Leman Russ tank commander in a Punisher. I know there are better ways to spend the points.

I'd say to always add an extra heavy weapon to the Devastator squad. A Lascannon at minimum would work.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd say to always add an extra heavy weapon to the Devastator squad. A Lascannon at minimum would work.

To each their own. Two extra lascannons at the cost of something else really. I could get 130 points back by taking 2 lascannons and skipping the predator. Swap in another razorback with an assault canno. It's probably more efficient to do that. But then again, I like the predator autocannon. It's use case is dramatically better in the age of models have an invuln save that makes AP-2 overkill, but AP-1 is perfect.

As i said, i bring the predator for sentimental reasons.

How many points is that so far?

For the weapon options for Tactical Marines, what would you say is the purpose of each?
For instance, Melta looks like it's for short-range vehicle destruction, but then I look at Grav and I'm not sure.
Same deal with Plasma and Grav.
Some are obvious: Heavy Bolters for mowing down infantry, Lascannons for long-range tank explosions, but some of them seem to have a weird overlap where I can't get a grasp on which is, with the new rules, most efficient for which job.

Marm,

I would run your Dev squads with 1 HB and 1 ML in each. That extra 35 points goes a long way just in case you have 2 units you want to flak missile and an extra heavy bolter guy is decent for the shots. There are some pesky armies that will bolt across the table and tie up a unit 40" away from them so I don't mind paying the 35 points for a bit of redundancy.

I'm starting to like dakka ceptors with gman better than AC razors. I like being able to keep them off the table and you are giving up big game hunter with 4 10w + models. Besides, they both seem to die to a stiff breeze anyways, might as well go for more dakka. s5 vs s6 w/in gmans aura is offset by significantly more shots for a similar price (although you do lose out on the HKMs which are great alpha)

I haven't run the points on this but it seems close:

tiggy
techmarine

LC tac squad x2
scouts

2x dakka ceptors

2x AC + HB preds

Stormraven

Gman

Culexus

Nothing about this list is optimized (DW interceptor squads + DA plasma inceptors and some gold bois if I can figure out how to squeeze them in is my new hotness but I paint soooo slooowwwww) and your nids would beat it handily but it is fun to play as an underdog.

I don't like mixing gman with too many points of allies because he needs to be buffing around 800 points of marines to make it even worth having him in your army (IMHO). To have 800 points of marines around him means starting with at least 1200 points + his 400 points leaves you only a couple hundred for screens/back field objectives...

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
For the weapon options for Tactical Marines, what would you say is the purpose of each?
For instance, Melta looks like it's for short-range vehicle destruction, but then I look at Grav and I'm not sure.
Same deal with Plasma and Grav.
Some are obvious: Heavy Bolters for mowing down infantry, Lascannons for long-range tank explosions, but some of them seem to have a weird overlap where I can't get a grasp on which is, with the new rules, most efficient for which job.

Plasma is good vs. everything. You really want to overcharge it, so should be in a re-roll bubble.
Grav fills a similar role as plasma. IMHO it’s better then non-overcharge plasma, not as good as full burn. If you are running non supported backfield harassers, I’d prefer it over plasma. YMMV.
Melta still has an edge in killing hard targets at close range. I think it’s a bit overpriced (and plasma is underpriced) but melta still gets the job done. You do give up a lot for the slight niche edge they get.
Flamers autohit on overwatch? I still field mine, and they occasionally shine, but d6 hits really wasn’t a decent swap for the template. At least they are cheep.

HBs are decent mid S firepower.
MLs are flexible
(both those have stratagems that can do mortal wounds)
PCs I’m not a huge fan of, but they are decent generalist weapons. I just dislike D3 shots
MMs on foot are overpriced. The -1 to hit hurts, and you pay a lot to take them. When melta was cheep choice it made a lot more sense. At a premium price, it’s lackluster.
GC, like grav guns, work OK when not supported. If you are going to drop pod behind enemy lines, might be nice to have. Not terrible,
LCs pop tanks and giant monsters. There are generally plenty of those that need killing.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So I am looking at my current army setup. What improvements can I make?

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 845pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists

Gametype: Matched

+ HQ +

Pedro Kantor [9 PL, 170pts]

Rhino Primaris [9 PL, 170pts]: Orbital array, Twin plasma gun

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [32 PL, 615pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 89pts]: Master-crafted boltgun, Power fist, The Fist of Vengeance

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 196pts]: Armorium Cherub
. 2x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [33 PL, 537pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists

+ HQ +

Lieutenants [4 PL, 67pts]
. Lieutenant: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts]

Honour Guard [2 PL, 52pts]
. Honour Guard: Power axe
. Honour Guard: Power axe

Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant
. . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol: Special issue boltgun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [108 PL, 1997pts] ++

I haven't gotten to do it yet, but I REALLY want my Sternguard to be near the Lieutenant, Pedro, and the Rhino Primaris(which would use it's Targeting Skull) just one time, so I can have them fire off 20 shots (rerolling misses, 5s and 6s add an additional shot because I would use Bolter Drill) and then turn around and drop Masterful Marksmanship (rerolling 1s because Lieutenant). Just one time. Just to see how many wounds they can put on something. I am really curious what the math would be on them shooting into a big blob of Orcs.

I would look at taking an ancient instead of the honor guard. If you are bringing marines on foot with lots of heavy/special weapons (hellblasters, devs, etc.) then the ancient can be really good, especially if you give him standard of the emperor ascendant. I have had lots of success with the ancient backing up my hellblasters. Remember when your guys die you can shoot enemy units that haven't shot in your opponents shooting phase yet, denying your opponent shots. Also they benefit from buffs as well.

As far as the rhino primaris goes, I have been meaning to try it myself however I was thinking about using it with full unit of hellblasters. It could work but it is rather expensive.

Also you may want to just keep the chainsword on the lieutenant. If you think you are going to end up in combat just give him the teeth of terra before the game. That weapon is amazing IMO.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH
>Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former

Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...

Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.

I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH
>Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former

Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
@ Marmatag

I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.

They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...

Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.

I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.

You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.

I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.

 Primark G wrote:
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.

I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.

Im a casual player but im still perfectly capable of a analyzing the meta and paying attention to what are and are not power lists. I used to have my Draigo + Tigurius Centurion Star, or my bike captain smashfether.

You are obviously a casual player as well if you think Allarus are good or the UM tactics are great. I will play UM until the day I die, but I am aware that without the good reasons to take them (RG, MC) they fall behind overall army power compared to DA, BA, and RG. Maybe you are the big fish in your pond, but dont mistake it for being hardcore, especially when you stick to your opinions despite math and tournament results disagreeing with you.

As for the UM tactic, the -1 to hit isnt game breaking, but unfrotunately the high ranking meta heavily favours shooting over close combat, which weakens our situational tactic to merely being +1 LD. That being said, I always pined for Combat Tactics back after the 6th edition codex launched, since it was an unstated hero in a lot of games.

My personal suggestion for using Guilliman is to either load up on Hellblasters or Razorbacks and introduce them to as much shooting as you can, hopefully killing them before you lose too many dudes. Dont be afraid to move Guilliman up, as a lot of unimaginitive players just hang him back as a reroll battery, when Marneus Calgar and a LT would be just as good, or even a cheap captain and a LT would do. If you want to get your 400 points worth he needs to hit things.

As for Primarks statement about the negatives to hit, he is referring to the negative suffered to falling back And shooting as UM, and then saying that Tigurius providing it is good. Hes not being contradictory in this case, just not being completely clear. Though if you want -1 to be hit, why wouldnt you just play Raven Guard instead?

Ultramarine infantry units basically have the keyword Fly which is huge. Sure it’s -1 to hit but 4+ is okay... I’m sure Ork players wish they could hit on 4+ like AM and Tau. Never seen RG win any major events or place well. Allarus work for me - they protect my fire base... it’s not rocket science and they always get their points back every time. Okay you don’t understand and that’s okay too.

Ultramarines are only winning because of Roboute and those wins have steadily dropped with the nerfs that happened to Assault Cannon Razorbacks and Roboute himself. You DO realize that, right?

 Primark G wrote:
Ultramarine infantry units basically have the keyword Fly which is huge. Sure it’s -1 to hit but 4+ is okay... I’m sure Ork players wish they could hit on 4+ like AM and Tau. Never seen RG win any major events or place well. Allarus work for me - they protect my fire base... it’s not rocket science and they always get their points back every time. Okay you don’t understand and that’s okay too.

Thank you for showing you aren’t a competitive player / don’t follow the tournament scene. RG won/places highly in a few events, one where minimum Tacs with lascannons were spammed with the Assback, one with Stormraven spam and one with Fire Raptors. Pretty much anytime there was a strong Codex marine unit, there was a RG list to push it over the top.

Now a days, there isn’t much that our Codex can do that another can’t do better. Deathwatch out Primaris us, Dark Angels out gun-line, and Blood Angels and Custodes out close range us.

Now, I don’t Think anyone would have a problem with you providing your two cents (and shouldn’t) if you did not continually argue for pages that you were correct, damn whatever the math that was shown said and what tournament results have shown.

Now, it’s obvious you have a melee heavy meta in your area, or at least enough of one that the chapter tactic comes into effect. In the bigger picture that the internet presents, the game is tilted towards shooting, which means we don’t get much use out of the Fly-1 rule. The same goes for Allarus- if the enemy is doing your terminators the favour of coming directly to you, obviously they are going to shine. Bikes overall put out more damage however, except against edge cases. They are also capable of quickly crossing the board and coming to grips with the enemy.

What don’t we understand? You like playing suboptimal lists with large squads (I do too), so that’s why you pick UM. You even said the latte part yourself.

Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?

@ CT

Again you don’t understand... armies such as Tyranids, CSM, Necrons, Dark Eldar and others have good-great melee units but not at the expense of shooting... none are played as primarily melee based. I don’t play in a melee heavy meta.

What are the big events (LVO, NOVA, Adepticon level) that RG won?

I’ve never said Vertus Praetors are inferior to Allarus. It’s just you don’t understand why Allarus are good.

 godardc wrote:
Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?

You're at least running Calgar right?

Is it Quantum Shield spam or Immortal spam or Wraith spam or Destroyer Spam? I need more info as I am primarily a Necron player.